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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
 Posted - 16 May 2006 : 01:31:07
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Right. Hello again! :)
Ive got an intresting (well, at least to me!) question.
I was reading the Netheril:Empire of Magic book (from the Wizards site), and it mentioned that Selune and Aumanator were the only gods who could have Paladins in their service.
However, Selune can no longer have Paladins, according to the FRCS and the whole Alignment thing. (Although, there is a Substitution Class in Champions of Valor that mentions Selunite Paladins, which just further confuses me)
So, my question is two fold. What occured between the Time of Netheril and the Present Day to stop Selune having Paladins in her service? If shes not allowed Paladins anyway?!
Im guessing that it has something to do with the arrival of the Triad, etc. But im wondering if theres any lore out there that mentions this specifically.
Thanks again. :)
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2006 : 02:06:32
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| Selune, like most deities do not have to follow rules written by mere mortals. AFAIK, Sulune is the only CG deity that can still have Paladin and CoV is a fairly recent source book and might be the most recent canon on the topic. New that says something different then old is generally acepted as canon. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2006 : 02:16:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
New that says something different then old is generally acepted as canon.
Indeed; newer lore trumps older lore. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2006 : 02:20:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Selune, like most deities do not have to follow rules written by mere mortals. AFAIK, Sulune is the only CG deity that can still have Paladin and CoV is a fairly recent source book and might be the most recent canon on the topic. New that says something different then old is generally acepted as canon.
I think you meant Sune in the first part of your reply, not Selune. :) I almost said that to, till I read it again. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2006 : 03:29:15
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Well according to the borads that should not be mentioned: http://boards1.wizards.com/archive/index.php/t-544694.html a few other CG deities might have Paladins. quote:
Finally, according to the Hero Builders Guidebook and Races of the Wild, Corellon Larethian - a CG deity - has paladins. Although these are "core D&D" sources I don't see why this wouldn't hold true for the Realms as well.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2006 : 04:00:59
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Well, certainly there are other CG Gods that can have Paladins. (Sune, Corellon)
But, Selune is not mentioned as a Diety that can have Paladins in the FRCS, and the mention in Champions of Valor (The Order of the Crescent Moon) uses terms such as Unusual. I mean, the Order has Paladins of Clangeddin and Selune.. >.>
It seems odd that Selune would go from being one of two dieties that had Paladins in Netheril's time, to being overlooked in the FRCS, and only having unusual and obscure Paladins. So, something must have happened, imo. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2006 : 04:20:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Well, certainly there are other CG Gods that can have Paladins. (Sune, Corellon)
But, Selune is not mentioned as a Diety that can have Paladins in the FRCS, and the mention in Champions of Valor (The Order of the Crescent Moon) uses terms such as Unusual. I mean, the Order has Paladins of Clangeddin and Selune.. >.>
It seems odd that Selune would go from being one of two dieties that had Paladins in Netheril's time, to being overlooked in the FRCS, and only having unusual and obscure Paladins. So, something must have happened, imo.
The vast amount of material pn the realms, changing aurthors and design teams, all make it posible for items to be overlooked. It would be surprising to me that some continuity errors did not occur. I have certainly found one that an aurthor conceeded was an error. That was not caught by editors or aparently no one else before pubication. Prehaps Paladins of Selune should have been cut, but until eratica or more recent lore says otherwuse, they do appear to be posible in the Realms. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2006 : 09:26:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
New that says something different then old is generally acepted as canon.
Indeed; newer lore trumps older lore.
A fact that I like to blatantly ignore in some cases. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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green knight
Seeker
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 01:40:40
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I think the "Heretic of the Faith" Feat from the Powers of Faerun book would make paladins of Selune now possible as well.
Green Knight |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 07:22:21
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quote:
Originally posted by green knight
I think the "Heretic of the Faith" Feat from the Powers of Faerun book would make paladins of Selune now possible as well.
Green Knight
A very interesting observation, Green Knight. I shall look more closely into the mechanics of this feat and see how it could apply in my campaign. An order of paladins would no doubt offend the mainstream clergy of Corellon, for example, who glorify freedom, individual excellence and ennoblement of the elven race. To have an order of holy warriors living in simple barracks, wearing unadorned simple steel armor and following a strict code of discipline and behaviour that discourage individualism and effectively transforms the elf sons and daughters into 'jarheads', 'sir yes sir!' seemingly unthinking automatons would OH-SO-MUCH embarass some of these elves' fellow clan and family members to say the least!
"Did you hear: the youngest of House Durothil has left his father's palace in a storm, swearing not to feast in those halls until his father turns at least half of his profits to care for the poor humans of Waterdeep. The young hothead said that 'to not do so would relegate us elves to the grace of a tribe of orcs who gleefully watch an allied tribe of goblins being massacred while they wait in the safety of their cliffside caves'. He went on to say that 'hiding here in Evermeet was perhaps even worse, as we do not dare even watch the slaughter.' That young one, I would say, seems unusually unwise to say such things; true, our youngs have bouts of hotheadedness as they grow, and critiquing the way we do thing is part of growing as an elf... but has he not realized that humans would resume their depradations with the emergence of the next generation, heedless of the good we may do for the current?" |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 09:33:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
quote:
Originally posted by green knight
I think the "Heretic of the Faith" Feat from the Powers of Faerun book would make paladins of Selune now possible as well.
Green Knight
A very interesting observation, Green Knight. I shall look more closely into the mechanics of this feat and see how it could apply in my campaign. An order of paladins would no doubt offend the mainstream clergy of Corellon, for example, who glorify freedom, individual excellence and ennoblement of the elven race. To have an order of holy warriors living in simple barracks, wearing unadorned simple steel armor and following a strict code of discipline and behaviour that discourage individualism and effectively transforms the elf sons and daughters into 'jarheads', 'sir yes sir!' seemingly unthinking automatons would OH-SO-MUCH embarass some of these elves' fellow clan and family members to say the least!
A rather sweeping generalisation of Paladins there  .
If there were an order of paladins for Corellon, I think they would still hold Corellons faiths and tenets, but enact them in a different way (by striving to better themselves as a good paladin would, and perhaps the highest among their duties would be bringing freedom to others)
Of course you could even go a step further and use the Paladin of Freedom variant in Unearthed Arcane, as a chaotic good paladin of Corellon. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 14:48:05
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| The main question I see here isn't "whether" it can happen, its "what happened to all the order of paladins for X deity since the days of Netheril". My answer to that would be that Tyr showed up and took over part of Amaunator's portfolio, and Torm ascended. Ilmater became popular and the red knight became a deity. Helm and Hoar draw paladins. Even Siamorphe, Nobanion, and Lurue are something that paladins are more inclined to see eye to eye with than the moon. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 15:51:48
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To be a paladin, one must be lawful good. One must make a personal vow of poverty (not in the strictest sense or game-sense of the term, but in effect 'vow not to live in unecessary luxury...' if a paladin is in command of beautiful keep, or even granted land that has an existing 'overly adorned' keep, I would say that this would not break his oaths, providing he does not throw a banquet every night and waste the people's money...)
To be lawful good one must humble himself, and truly believe that one is the SERVANT of society, not the MASTER. Elves are not servants. They are EXAMPLES to be followed by the rest of the world, the epitome of Chaotic Goodness and self-success through self-sacrifice... lawful good folks that are not competent are tolerated provided they WORK HARD, but an incompetent elf has a sad life ahead of him/herself... |
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nbnmare
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
205 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 18:09:15
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The original Order of the Crescent Moon (see Eric L. Boy's Sleep of Ages adventure in Dungeon #69) consisted of dwarven fighter/clerics and human crusaders, but of course the crusader class doesn't officially exist in 3rd or 3.5 Edition. CoV would have been a pretty good place to bring it back, though.
Of course, the original Order of the Crescent Moon was founded in Tethyr in -200 DR in order to combat a massive beholder army. CoV's Order of the Crescent Moon was founded just over a century ago in Impiltur in response to lycanthrope raids . |
Edited by - nbnmare on 17 May 2006 18:10:01 |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 18:52:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
To be a paladin, one must be lawful good. One must make a personal vow of poverty (not in the strictest sense or game-sense of the term, but in effect 'vow not to live in unecessary luxury...' if a paladin is in command of beautiful keep, or even granted land that has an existing 'overly adorned' keep, I would say that this would not break his oaths, providing he does not throw a banquet every night and waste the people's money...)
To be lawful good one must humble himself, and truly believe that one is the SERVANT of society, not the MASTER. Elves are not servants. They are EXAMPLES to be followed by the rest of the world, the epitome of Chaotic Goodness and self-success through self-sacrifice... lawful good folks that are not competent are tolerated provided they WORK HARD, but an incompetent elf has a sad life ahead of him/herself...
I'd like to respond with a quote
quote:
Lawful Good, “Crusader”: A lawful good character acts as a good person is expected or required to act. She combines a commitment to oppose evil with the discipline to fight relentlessly. She tells the truth, keeps her word, helps those in need, and speaks out against injustice. A lawful good character hates to see the guilty go unpunished.
Lawful good is the best alignment you can be because it combines honor and compassion.
There are many flavours of Lawful Good, and it does not necessarily mean being humbled and acting as a servant to society.
You may find Paladins of Tyr attempting to enforce 'their law' in lawless lands, or finding loopholes in local laws. I'm sure a few Tyrrans believe in a symbiosis of Law, where just as they ae ruled by the law, they also 'use' the law themselves (espeically the bureucrats and magistrates that worship Grimjaws).
Neither should Lawful Good mean being a humble servant. You can find arrogant cavalier types, single-minded hunters, generous benefactors, the list goes on (yes including the humble servant). I'm sure some of the greatest military minds can hardly have been too chaotic in their thoughts and actions and yet are respected among the elven community. Leading by example is a great way for someone in a position of power in a society.
Additionaly, whilst the majority of elves are chaotic, and 'individuals', thats not to say that one that isn't would be shunned. I don't quite understand what you're saying about lawful elves being tolerated but I hardly believe the elves see things 'ooh he's lawful, if he's not competent then he's good for nothing because he's not chaotic'. Not least because the alignment is an abstraction and a guide, rather than a template. Just as there are exceptions to every rule, and I certainly believe a lawful elf is more common than say a good orc or troll, and far from likely to be shunned because they seem a bit 'set in their ways' or 'not as free spirited' as others
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 19:16:05
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To add a quote
quote:
Code of Conduct
A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class abilities if she ever willingly commits an evil act.
Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth), help those in need (provided they do not use the help for evil or chaotic ends), and punish those who harm or threaten innocents.
In prior editions Paladins were required to give most of their wealth away, had a limit of number of magic items they could own. Odds are good that many 3.X Paladins will give away most of their wealth as money sitting in a pile does no good.
A sevant to socity is clearly an error, they are in service to their deity which expects them to aid innocents when posible.
From 2nd quote:
A paladin never retains wealth. He may keep only enough treasure to support himself in a modest manner, pay his henchmen, men-at-arms, and servitors a reasonable rate, and to construct or maintain a small castle or keep (funds can be set aside for this purpose). All excess must be donated to the church or another worthy cause.
Which permits them to retain wealth to build a castle and anyone that owns a castle is not following a rule of poverty.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 20:00:54
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Interesting.
The vow of poverty in the book of exalted deeds accomplishes much the same thing (though a little more restrictive) and gives some great bonuses to make up for it
Back to the morality rather than rules debate though. I can certainly see many Paladins giving up most of their wealth, though I'm glad it doesn't apply to all of them any more. There are certainly many ways a Paladin can use money to further his cause :) |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 21:28:33
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Back on point... Remember that Selune's portfolio in Netheril is different than her current one. Like many of the Nether gods she had tons of Ports. Which were:
Moon, Moonlight, Stars, Dreams, Purity, Beauty, Love, Marriage, Navigation, Navigators, tracking, Wanderers, Seekers, Diviners, Good & Neutral Lycanthropes, Autumn
The current diety of Love and Beauty has Paladins (which might explain where they went). Purity might have also attracted Paladins, before Selune lost them. But that later has seemed to disappeared.
Just a point. |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 21:00:29
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>>Back on point... Remember that Selune's portfolio in Netheril is different than her current >>one. Like many of the Nether gods she had tons of Ports. Which were:
>>Moon, Moonlight, Stars, Dreams, Purity, Beauty, Love, Marriage, Navigation, Navigators, >>tracking, Wanderers, Seekers, Diviners, Good & Neutral Lycanthropes, Autumn
Very good point, purity & love are things that would attract certain paladins, tracking might attract some bounty hunter paladin types.... and with the loss of these portfolios a corresponding loss of paladins in her orders would be expected.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 01:27:47
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So, we are all settled on Selune being allowed Paladins, right?
Anyway, from the gist of this, basically Selune got pushed out from being a common diety for Paladins by the emergence of more LG Gods (Triad) and Sune becoming the 'Dominatant' CG God (and taking some of Selune's Portfolios)
Theres probably some Realmslore waiting to be created about that. Maybe..
Thanks for your help guys.  |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 01:33:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
So, we are all settled on Selune being allowed Paladins, right?
Anyway, from the gist of this, basically Selune got pushed out from being a common diety for Paladins by the emergence of more LG Gods (Triad) and Sune becoming the 'Dominatant' CG God (and taking some of Selune's Portfolios)
Theres probably some Realmslore waiting to be created about that. Maybe..
Thanks for your help guys.
This theory appears to work for now, Selune's Paladins are rare to find compared to finding Paladins of the "common Paladin deities" , at least until new canon offers more information or there is a correction put forth fot CoV . *shrugs*
There might be a little more out there in recent pubications, not anything I am aware of right now. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Selune and Paladins
