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Proc
Acolyte
Canada
32 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 03:38:12
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These couple of questions came from reading Annihilation, and I could use some info from fellow Candlekeepers. Consider yourself spoiler-warned...
At one point, a central character gets punted into another plane and runs into a few petitioners. One of these petitions ends up returning to the prime with said character, and winds up as some sort of undead (that I understand - sort of), but the petitioner wanted to return because he apparently had family still alive and he was their only provider. I had thought that petitioners retained no memory of their former life? Was this a misconception on my part or has it been changed?
Also, if a petitioner dies on it's home plane (can they be killed?) are they destroyed forever?
Finally, (this a more general question) Do petitioners spend enternity as petitioners? I thought I heard that sometimes souls can be transformed into various extra-planar creatures, Devils, Demons, Angels, Archons and so on... Thanks in advance for any replies.
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- George Carlin |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 07:08:21
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Before I begin, let it be known that I have not as yet, read Annihilation. So therefore, I'm not entirely certain of the basis in which petitioners have been used within the context of the story.
Now, onto the basics of petitioners... This is taken directly from the Planescape setting -
quote:
The majority of bodies on the planes are petitioners, which are departed spirits of primes and planars whose bodies reformed on the plane that matches their previous alignment or devotion. A petitioner retains the mannerisms, speech, even general interests of his or her former self, but all memories of the past are wiped completely away. At best, a petitioner has a shadowy recollection of a previous life, but little or nothing useful can be learned from these fleeting images. Petitioners mostly desire to attain some ultimate union with the powers of their plane. This can be accomplished in a number of ways good works, serene contemplation, steadfast faith, or vile notoriety, depending upon the petitioner's align ment.
Petitioners hate leaving their home plane, as "death" outside that place results in oblivion. Fact is, they can't be resurrected if slain at home, either; once dead, the petitioners' essences are merged with the plane, but they figure that's better than nonexistence. Still, a power's got to raise an army now and then, and it may be petitioners that fill out the ranks, but that's the only way they'll ever leave their home turf - on the boss's orders. Petitioners tend to view all things as a test of character. They ain't eager to die, but they'll take that risk in order to further their own goals. For example, a petitioner warrior on Ysgard will fearlessly rush into battle, since combat is the glorious and right thing for him to do.
Essentially, very little has changed with the advent of 3e. Of course, PCs can now play petitioners thanks to the template in the MotP 3e. In 2e, petitioners where never player characters.
So, as for your first question -
quote:
I had thought that petitioners retained no memory of their former life?
From what I've posted above, you can see that "officially" petitioners' memories are mostly wiped clean. However, the MotP mentions the fact that this can change within certain cosmologies. The standard D&D cosmology makes no allowance for the retainment of memories, but within the Realms planar framework, this may not be true. At best, it can be decided upon a case by case basis. In DL for example, some souls (when they first undergo the transformation to petitioners) retain some memory of their former lives, but only as much memory as is relevant to the duties they will perform for their deity.
Now, onto your next question -
quote:
Was this a misconception on my part or has it been changed?
No, it wasn't a misconception. The 3e D&D cosmology has simply made it so that any type of petitioner is now a valid choice for a campaign setting. It's just important to remember that in core D&D worlds that utilise the core cosmology, such as Greyhawk, petitioners do not retain their memories.
Moving on -
quote:
Also, if a petitioner dies on it's home plane (can they be killed?) are they destroyed forever?
It really depends again, upon which style of the cosmology you are employing. Certainly, there where instances in 2e PS when petitioners were reconstituted after they had been destroyed, but these were very unique situations, and mostly for adventure purposes. In most cases, the petitioner is simply absorbed into the plane itself, forever.
And finally -
quote:
Do petitioners spend enternity as petitioners? I thought I heard that sometimes souls can be transformed into various extra-planar creatures, Devils, Demons, Angels, Archons and so on...
No. In some cases, as you have pointed out, some petitioners will become the "basis" for some outsiders, but mostly only devils and demons who in most cases begin life as larvae. Angels, and the other celestials are a different matter entirely, and hardly ever are they completely composed of a once-mortal petitioner. The one core aspect to remember here, is that most of these outsiders you mention, are born of the plane itself.
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 07:19:10
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Sage, your knowledge never ceases to amaze me. Even I was a little unclear on some of these things, however, you've put it rather well, and made some of the murkiness in my mind clear. I thank ye for that, and once again, commend your considerable knowledge.
K |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 07:52:23
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Thank you  .
Although, it should not amaze you that much. My knowledge of planarlore is simply the result of years of study on both the planes, and their myriad inhabitants.
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 08:01:41
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Well, I guess I know who to summon for any questions I have on the planes then. I'm sure over time, your knowledge will prove invaluable.
K |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 08:04:16
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Well, I'll be glad to help. Although, I feel I should point out that if I am not available, Kuje is just as knowledgeable about the Planes as I. Feel free to consult him as well .
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 16:56:10
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, I'll be glad to help. Although, I feel I should point out that if I am not available, Kuje is just as knowledgeable about the Planes as I. Feel free to consult him as well .
Aye, thanks for that Sage. And if I get stumped, then I'll go ask Shemmy. :) |
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Karesch
Learned Scribe
Canada
199 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2004 : 16:59:37
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valuable knowledge indeed. I thank ye both.
K |
Knowledge is power... power corrupts... knowledge corrupts? hmm...
Death is only frightening to those who haven't died yet... |
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Proc
Acolyte
Canada
32 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2004 : 01:00:45
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| Thank you Sage for the answers. I mostly game in FR (I probably should have said that at the beginning) so I was looking for FR specific answers. What you have given was great help nonetheless. Annihilation features a fair bit of planar travel, the Abyss, The Astral Plane, the Shadow Plane and others. |
"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
- George Carlin |
Edited by - Proc on 16 Jul 2004 01:01:30 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2004 : 14:04:09
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Well, I'll be glad to help. Although, I feel I should point out that if I am not available, Kuje is just as knowledgeable about the Planes as I. Feel free to consult him as well .
Aye, thanks for that Sage. And if I get stumped, then I'll go ask Shemmy. :)
I didn't consider mentioning our semi-resident "King of the Crosstrade", mainly because she really doesn't spend that much time on this boards...
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 10:17:27
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Well, since this scroll has a handy title . . . .
It was just mentioned in the Planar Handbook scroll that the planes of Vacuum, Dust, Ash, and Salt were the result of the energies of the Air, Earth, Fire, and Water planes mixed with the Negative plane. This made me try to figure out which plane came from what. Unfortunately, I lack an explanation for the difference between "Para-" and "Quasi-" Elemental Planes. That aside, I also seem to be missing the names of some planes, if this chart is how things in the Inner Planes work.
My reasoning came up with this:
Air + Earth = ?
Air + Fire = Smoke
Air + Negative = Vacuum
Air + Positive = Lightning
Air + Water = Ice
Earth + Fire = Magma
Earth + Negative = Dust
Earth + Positive = Mineral
Earth + Water = Ooze
Fire + Negative = Ash
Fire + Positive = Radiance
Fire + Water = Steam
Negative + Positive = ?
Negative + Water = Salt
Positive + Water = ?
So, Sage, mind filling in some blanks and/or correcting mistakes?
Oh, great, now I'm rhyming.  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 10:34:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Well, since this scroll has a handy title . . . .
It was just mentioned in the Planar Handbook scroll that the planes of Vacuum, Dust, Ash, and Salt were the result of the energies of the Air, Earth, Fire, and Water planes mixed with the Negative plane. This made me try to figure out which plane came from what. Unfortunately, I lack an explanation for the difference between "Para-" and "Quasi-" Elemental Planes. That aside, I also seem to be missing the names of some planes, if this chart is how things in the Inner Planes work.
My reasoning came up with this:
Air + Earth = ?
Air + Fire = Smoke
Air + Negative = Vacuum
Air + Positive = Lightning
Air + Water = Ice
Earth + Fire = Magma
Earth + Negative = Dust
Earth + Positive = Mineral
Earth + Water = Ooze
Fire + Negative = Ash
Fire + Positive = Radiance
Fire + Water = Steam
Negative + Positive = ?
Negative + Water = Salt
Positive + Water = ?
So, Sage, mind filling in some blanks and/or correcting mistakes?
Oh, great, now I'm rhyming.
Para-elemental planes are nothing more than combinations of the four prime elements - Earth, Air, Water, and Fire. Quasi-elemental planes (no longer apart of the core 3e D&D cosmology) are the combination between matter and energy. In those terms, each of the four prime elements touch upon either the positive or negative energy planes to create them.
Put simply, there are four prime planes, eight para-elemental planes, and eight quasi-elemental planes.
Now, as to your listing...
* Air + Earth = ? -- This is not a valid combination
* Air + Fire = Smoke -- That's correct
* Air + Negative = Vacuum -- That's correct
* Air + Positive = Lightning -- That's correct
* Air + Water = Ice -- That's correct
* Earth + Fire = Magma -- That's correct
* Earth + Negative = Dust -- That's correct
* Earth + Positive = Mineral -- That's correct
* Earth + Water = Ooze -- That's correct
* Fire + Negative = Ash -- That's correct
* Fire + Positive = Radiance -- That's correct
* Fire + Water = Steam -- Oh, and you were going so well... No. The quasi-plane of Steam is the result of a combination between Water and Positive Energy.
* Negative + Positive = ? -- Some planars believe it exists, but it's never been proven. And if it had, it's likely there would be no one around to document it...
* Negative + Water = Salt -- That's correct
* Positive + Water = ? -- It's where you went wrong above. This combination is Steam.
That should do it...
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Edited by - The Sage on 17 Jul 2004 10:37:49 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 10:46:02
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| Okay, so the opposing elements (Air/Earth, Fire/Water, Positive/Negative) can't combine? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 10:55:07
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The four prime elements can, but only rarely, and only by connection through what are called "elemental pockets". These are regions of one prime elemental plane that can exist in another prime elemental plane temporarily. Of course, the pocket is a closed bubble, and cannot affect the plane it has intruded upon in any way (although in one adventure they did). A berk with an empty brain-box however, will be affected by the change in elements, especially if he approaches, and enters into the bubble.
As for the Positive/Negative, most tend to think of this as matter versus antimatter, and while the analogy is apt... it's not entirely correct. It's more a case of order versus entropy. The meeting of both would likely produce a fragile balance between the forces where nothing can be brought into being, and alternatively, nothing can be destroyed... the ultimate void.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 11:14:53
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| Well, I figured that it was unlikely, but again, I thought that Fire and Water was what brought about Steam. Until tonight, I also thought that it was Air and Earth that made Dust . . . . |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 11:24:35
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Well, I'll agree with you on the Air + Earth = Dust, but only because I once held that conception myself back in my earlier days. I'd never really considered the Fire + Water = Steam combination though. It sounds rather logical, but then we are talking about the planes, and if the planes were logical, there really wouldn't be much fun to be had in adventuring across them... would there now?
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Edited by - The Sage on 17 Jul 2004 11:26:06 |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 13:50:54
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Interesting thread - I'm only annoyed that Sage got to Bookwyrm's question first (though he did answer it better than me!)
When i first got into Planescape I compiled a lost of official, not-so-official and my own Inner Planes:
quote:
The Inner Planes
The True Element Planes (Energy Planes)
Negative Energy
Positive Energy
The Elemental Planes (Core Elemental Planes)
Air
Earth
Fire
Water
The Para-Elemental Planes
Ice (Cold) = Air + Water
Magma = Earth + Fire
Ooze = Earth + Water
Smoke = Air + Fire
The Quasi-Elemental Planes
Ash = Negative + Fire
Dust = Negative + Earth
Salt = Negative + Water
Vacuum = Negative + Air
Lightning = Positive + Air
Mineral = Positive + Earth
Radiance = Positive + Fire
Steam = Positive + Water
The Quasi-(Para-)Elemental Planes
Frost = Negative + Ice
Fumes = Negative + Smoke
Pumice = Negative + Magma
Silt = Negative + Ooze
Clay = Positive + Ooze
Crystal = Positive + Ice
Obsidian = Positive + Magma
Spark = Positive + Smoke
Supra-(Quasi-)Elemental Planes (Planes of the Body, Mind and Heart)
Bone
Flesh
Soul
Thought
Blood
Disconnected Elemental Planes (Other Elemental Planes)
Wood
Remember - that was a couple of years ago so you can't go blaming me for using 'Supra-'! 
That might be better as Semi-Elemental... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 14:59:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
Supra-(Quasi-)Elemental Planes (Planes of the Body, Mind and Heart)
Bone
Flesh
Soul
Thought
Blood
There's every possibility that these types of planes could exist.
More than one screaming lunatic has proclaimed that the Abyss itself has bones. Not anything like humanoids have, of course, but still, there is said to be a solid superstructure on which the layers of horror and depravity are built, a network connecting them and preventing them from being absorbed into other planes of existence. This "skeleton" defines what in the random, unstructured layers is actually "the Abyss" and what is instead a satellite of Tartarus, Pandemonium, or the Land, not to mention the Astral and other planes the Abyss sometimes entangles itself with.
Travelers have noticed terrain features they claim are evidence of these theoretical bones: skulls the size of mountains or entire layers, hollow and dry or flowing with foul fluids and dripping rotting tissues; structures like enormous thighbones, ivory-colored, blood-red, and ebon-black, connecting floating islands with greater continents and bridging maelstroms of chaos; great clutching hands and talons on which tanar'ri have built fortresses; rib-like structures that hold up the sky or are filled with bebelith webs.
But terrain like that isn't unique to the Abyss; it's found all across the planes, both upper and lower and in between. Most believe in an ancient race of titans instead, saying that the idea that the planes have something so mundane as bones is a ridiculous anthropomorphism. On the other hand, anthropomorphism is far from uncommon in the outer planes, or so many fiends and celestials wouldn't have humanoid forms.
So, there you go...
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 15:07:20
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
[...] and if the planes were logical, there really wouldn't be much fun to be had in adventuring across them... would there now?
And I thought you liked Mechanus. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 15:13:00
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Heh...
What can I say?... Other than that this gnome likes to adventure and explore new worlds (and planes)...
Mechanus will always be my home, but my heart belongs to all of the planes...
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 15:18:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
Remember - that was a couple of years ago so you can't go blaming me for using 'Supra-'!
That might be better as Semi-Elemental...
Perhaps you should use the Semi- for the "quasi-para-" planes, and call the others "pseudo-" elemental planes.
I like your thought, though, since I was considering something similar myself. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2004 : 15:28:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Perhaps you should use the Semi- for the "quasi-para-" planes, and call the others "pseudo-" elemental planes.
I like your thought, though, since I was considering something similar myself.
I wouldn't suggest using "pseudo-". It resembles too closely the aspect of "pseudo-natural" from the Far Realm. It might be confusing for some primes...
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2004 : 13:55:13
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Yes - Bone was the plane that sparked the idea for the rest of them. I've just always loved the idea of a world where the ground is made of piles of skeletons, haunted by bone golems, necrophidii and skeletal undead.
The idea is that these planes go:
Bone - connected to - Flesh - which is connected to the Heart - which is connected to the Soul of the planes of the mind - which is connected to Thought.
Thought was a separate idea, one where everything ever considered by anything is. So it'd have to be a pretty infinite plane.
I never worked out why none of them were well-known by planar scholars. Maybe they are just too closely connected to human(oid)ity for humanity to notice them.
Bookwyrm: The weird thing is that the author of the Quasi-(Para)-Elemental planes constantly calls them THE Quasi-eelemental planes, which is the term for the non-Para ones. I like pseudo-, but Sage has a point. |
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Phobos
Acolyte
Germany
19 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2004 : 14:03:12
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| back to the petitioners for a sec... wasn't it so that petitioners on ysgard could get killed and be resurrected the next day (if i recall correctly... i don't own the books). i think that made constant fighting possible for them! |
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Senbar Flay
Learned Scribe
185 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2004 : 15:06:28
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| Speaking of the planes is there any sourcebook or site that details the planes in FR Because they seem much diffrent from the ones in the manual of the plains. In the FR Campaign Setting names them all but they are not in the manual of the planes.??? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2004 : 15:48:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Senbar Flay
Speaking of the planes is there any sourcebook or site that details the planes in FR Because they seem much diffrent from the ones in the manual of the plains. In the FR Campaign Setting names them all but they are not in the manual of the planes.???
You're looking for the Player's Guide to Faerūn. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2004 : 16:40:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Senbar Flay
Speaking of the planes is there any sourcebook or site that details the planes in FR Because they seem much diffrent from the ones in the manual of the plains. In the FR Campaign Setting names them all but they are not in the manual of the planes.???
As Senior Scribe WR mentioned, The Player's Guide to Faerun details this information. Chapter six of the tome, about 25 pages in length, is devoted to the Cosmology of Toril. I and other scribes have access to this item. Thus, if you have any specific questions, ask away. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2004 : 17:36:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Phobos
back to the petitioners for a sec... wasn't it so that petitioners on ysgard could get killed and be resurrected the next day (if i recall correctly... i don't own the books). i think that made constant fighting possible for them!
That is essentilly true.
Ysgard's bloodthirsty petitioners have been slain in battle many thousands of times. They have no fear of death, and care little for their "lives". They live for battle.
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Paj
Seeker
United Kingdom
56 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 10:22:33
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So the only officialy recognised elemental planes in the Forgotten Realms setting are:
Negative
Positive
Earth
Air
Water
Fire
Ooze
Ice
Magma
Smoke
Are the Para-elemental Planes actually Planes in their own right? Or are they just an area of the Elemental Planes where the different elements interract?
Also, if the plane of Radience no longer exists where was Finder Wyvensour imprisoned? Or does the plane of Radience now exist as a location in one of the other elemental planes? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 11:04:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Paj
Also, if the plane of Radience no longer exists where was Finder Wyvensour imprisoned? Or does the plane of Radience now exist as a location in one of the other elemental planes?
As I recall, Finder was imprisoned on the Positive Material Plane, not the Plane of Radiance. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2006 : 12:34:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Paj
So the only officialy recognised elemental planes in the Forgotten Realms setting are:
Negative
Positive
Earth
Air
Water
Fire
Ooze
Ice
Magma
Smoke
Yes.
quote:
Are the Para-elemental Planes actually Planes in their own right? Or are they just an area of the Elemental Planes where the different elements interract?
Para-Elemental Planes are planes too, yes. They demonstrate the area where one Elemental Plane mingles with another.
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Planar questions
