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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 07 May 2006 : 22:04:47
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I've noticed recently some historically based "chopper" swords, swords that have relatively short blades, long handles, that are meant to be used to slash two handed. They don't need to be used two handed because of weight so much as they just don't have the proper chopping power for their swings without two hands. Besides the "historical" examples I have seen, the elven war swords at the begining of the Fellowship of the Rings are similar to what I am talking about.
These are kind of interesting to me, as they are two handed swords that obviously aren't bastard swords or greatswords. The link I provided is a "fantasy" blade, meaning its not based on a real world example, although the other "choppers" that I found on the web usually had wider blades and slightly shorter handles. 
For what I am talking about with the elven war swords in the Fellowship of the Rings . . . well, just watch the begining again
http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCat/Swords%20and%20Knives/Fantasy%20Chopper.aspx
Anyway, I was just wondering if anyone knows if anything more like these swords is covered in any rules that I may not have seen. Somehow I can picture them requiring two hands, but having a higher critical multiplier, but less base damage than a greatsword.
Then again, D&D has gotten increasingly less precise in what exactly constitues what weapon (for example, see scimiar, falchion, great scimitar, and great falchion, and sabre).
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2006 : 22:08:31
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Not totally sure but can you use a one handed weapon in two hands to add your 1.5*str bonus to it? (i.e. like a bastard sword in two hands is martial with 1.5*str, in one hand is exotic with 1xstr)
Rules could be simple enough to make up if you wanted a specific sword. Exotic weapon, 2h, damage d8, critical 18-20 I reckon |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2006 : 22:17:39
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| Races of the Wild has some typically elven weapons, but none of them have the lengthened handle. Though the blades they used in lotr reminded me slightly of a hybrid of a sword and polearm (the way the bladed part was used like a bardiche) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2006 : 22:18:38
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| I was thinking something similar, but perhaps keep the critical threat range at 19-20, but increase the threat multiplier to x3, since its exotic and its normal damage isn't that high . . . but just ruminating at this point. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 03:05:13
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| Weapon balance is fiddly in 3e; I'd simply treat such weapons as statistically identical to mercurial longswords(Arms and Equipment Guide, Sword and Fist). |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 05:14:11
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Hm . . . part of what inspired this is seeing the elves at the begining of LOTR . . . somehow I don't pictures elves calling them "chopper" swords. Any ideas on a good name?
Arivia, yeah, anytime a new weapon comes out, it does show that there isn't really a specific standard for weapon design. That having been said, my PCs were quite impressed the first time they ran into an orc barbarian with a fullblade. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 06:18:22
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Arivia, yeah, anytime a new weapon comes out, it does show that there isn't really a specific standard for weapon design. That having been said, my PCs were quite impressed the first time they ran into an orc barbarian with a fullblade.
Fullblades make my head catch on fire. |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 06:22:10
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You could try using the mechanics for the Elven Courtblades in Races of the Wild. Though the Courtblade does Slashing or Piercing damage, while the blades in LotR looked very cutting oriented. Maybe two-handed martial weapon that does 1d10, 18-20/x2. Basicially a "Falchion."
The PHB Falchion makes no sense with the Great Scimitar in Sandstorm. |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2006 : 17:21:07
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| Great thoughts on bringing these historical, but little known, weapons into the realms. It has always 'bothered me' that D & D calls a falchion two-handed. I believe what they are getting confused with is actually a sword fron Northern Europe/Germany called a Grosse Messer... The falchion was very common all over Europe and was not at all exotic. KEJr, I think that it would be the same way with your choppers; they would be more common, due to the fact of easier manufacture (no fullers) and easier to use, just slash and hack... These choppers would be capable of serious damage when used two handed and slightly less used one handed. Maybe apply a modifier when used with both hands... Just a few thoughts. Great topic! |
ShadowJack |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2006 : 02:42:50
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Yeah, I have seen a lot of falchions, and they actually look a lot more like what most people pictured as scimitars in 2nd edition, with a slightly less dramatic curve in most cases. I know I was a bit perplexed the first time I saw the falchion stats in 3rd edition.
To tie in what Archwizard was mentioning, between the scimitar and falchion in the PHB, and the great scimitar and and great falchion in Sandstorm, I would actually use scimitars (PHB), falchions (stats for great scimitars in Sandstorm, can be used one handed), and great falchions (two handed), and just dump the name great scimitars and the stats for falchions.
Of course, the 1st edition PHB listed falchion as an alternate name for scimitar . . .
But that is just me.
As far as the choppers go, I just think they are a really interesting weapon, and not quite the traditional bastard sword or greatsword. Its also kind of cool to see weapons that weren't that uncommon becoming better known.
But, have you heard of any better terms for "chopper" swords though? Every reference I have seen has called them this, but it doesn't seem like it was a term used by the cultures employing them. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2006 : 02:33:21
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Ironically, looking through the Planar Handbook (a book I previously had little interest in as a friend of mine essentially said it was a half hearted attempt at some 3.5 Planescape material), I found something very similar to what I was looking for, an exotic "greatsword" that has an extended handle and shorter blade and a larger threat range.
The only thing that is a problem with it is that its refered to as a Jovar, because denizens of that layer of the Seven Heavens commonly use it. Not a big issue, and there are also a few other items in that books that really are differnt "real world" type weapons that are in the book ascribed to various planar regions. |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2006 : 03:47:03
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Well...
Why not simply call it an 'Errant-blade'? |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2006 : 03:52:42
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| My humility precludes such action |
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Beezy
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2006 : 07:05:20
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| What exactly is a fullblade? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2006 : 11:04:46
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| A Fullblade is a greatsword so huge that a creature that tries to use it has to have exotic weapon proficiency (Fullblade) just to use the thing two-handed. Essentially its a massive greatsword that the normal person couldn't hope to effectively use even with a penalty. I know its stats are in the Arms and Equipment Guide (3rd edition), but I think they may have been in Sword and Fist as well, but I can remember for sure. |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2006 : 11:22:29
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How huge do the AaE books define the fullblade as being? Are we talking like anime Berserk huge or Final Fantasy VII huge?
I think I remember seeing one of the later-release Basic/Expert lines of boxed sets had a knight in platemail facing off against a dragon with a really huge enchanted sword.
Do fullblades require a minimum str to use? I recall some older 1E weapons (Maul and Mattok of the titans I think) that required Gauntlets of Ogre Power...and then everyones favorite, the old 1E Hammer of Thunderbolts (had to have Gauntlets and a Girdle)
Or course...imagine going to Cormyr and trying to peacebond such massive weapons |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Blade of Mourn
Acolyte
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2006 : 22:15:23
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*surprised nobody knows*
Those swords the elves used in the beginning of Lord of the Rings is actually a weapon from china or japan (or elsewhere in that area of asia) called a nagamaki. It was traditionally for use of warriors/samurai on horseback, though just as commonly used as a polearm. And, as the elves demonstrated can be an extremely effective weapon for infantry units.
I made one out of wood to spar with against my friends; it's very effective. Quick and light, and if used right can keep your opponents a good 8-10 feet away.
I'm pretty sure there are stats for it in Oriental Adventures.... Yeah, it causes 1d10 points of damage. That's all I remember about it.
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From below the dragon dark comes forth,
Nidhogg flying from Nithafjoll;
The bodies of men on his wings he bears,
The serpent bright:
Malice Striker.
Snorri Sturluson - GrÃmnismál (Völuspá) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2006 : 00:53:32
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I know the elven swords at the begining of LOTR look a bit like Naganatas, but they weren't 100% like them, and I kind of threw those in with what I was talking about pertaining to European "chopper" swords because the elves used them in a manner that was similar to what I might picture a "chopper" sword being used like.
At any rate, between the Jovar sword in the Planar Handbook and the Elven Court Blade in the Races of the Wild book I think I more or less have stats for some things that are similar, if not identical, to what I was talking about. Thanks everyone that chimed in, I appreciate the brainstorming. |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 13:45:24
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Good call, Blade of Mourn!
Its funny, I have been fascinated with the nagamaki for years, but never drew the similarities to the medieval Europe chopper swords. They are very similar weapons. I think the European chopper swords have more in common with the chinese Dao, what some books and mags call the Chinese war sword... I think it would be the closest equivalent to what KEJr is referring to from the Lord of the Rings. Anyway, I love discussions on ancient weapons! Thanks. |
ShadowJack |
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Aaron L
Acolyte
USA
21 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 20:45:52
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So, what youre looking for is a halberd, I would say. Use the stats for those. Just like a naginata. Long haft/hilt, short blade, used for chopping. Mechanically, it doesnt matter if the blade is axe shaped or sword shaped, as a naginata has the same stats as a halberd and its blade is sword shaped. Even though naginata had hafts as tall as the weilder, you could use the stats to model what you want just fine.
If you want, maybe make it exotic and finessable, with d10 damage, a 19-20 threat like a sword, with a x3 crit multiplier like an axe because of the greater leverage from the long hilt. That sounds like a fine exotic weapon to me.
Or you could use the stats for the ashanderai from the Wheel of Time game. Since that weapon is a naginata in its descriptions in the books, it seems to fit perfectly. Although I believe it allowed two weapon fighting with the haft, that would just be a bonus (and work very well for elven rangers).
The 3E treatment of the falchion always bugged me, too. Falchions were one handed chopping swords, definately not two handed scimitars. Grosse Messer is definately a better name for them, although greatswords would model grosse messer better (big knives indeed). They should have just called it a great scimitar and been done with it, and made falchions a variety of longsword (since 3E weapon damage seems to be dependant on size and not shape) Actually, I would have loved a list of what historical weapons equated to what D&D weapons listed in the PHB, just like in the 1E PHB and in Sword & Fist. I do that for my games in my setting document (along with several world specific weapons, as well. You wont find bastard swords in my game, but you will find Antiran krazors)
Also, since Im already ona tangent, I love what they did with the 3E katana. Masterwork bastard sword=perfect. Katana werent uber swords that could cut through iron, they didnt have mystical properties because they were folded so many times. In fact, they were only folded so many times because Japan had really crappy iron and they had to fold the metal overly much to remove the impurities. (they are beautiful, though, Ill give you that!) But a good pattern welded Viking sword could match a katana any day of the week.
Courtesy of your friendly neighborhood amateur medieval weapons scholar. Sorry for the extraneous info. |
"Sustenance is not frivolous." |
Edited by - Aaron L on 05 Jun 2006 20:57:36 |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2006 : 23:24:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Aaron L
If you want, maybe make it exotic and finessable, with d10 damage, a 19-20 threat like a sword, with a x3 crit multiplier like an axe because of the greater leverage from the long hilt. That sounds like a fine exotic weapon to me.
Whether that best describes the real world weapon in D&D terms or not, the 19-20/x3 set up for critical threat and multiplier is supposed to be broken. It is the best of both worlds, good threat range and good multiplier. While I'm not adept enough at math to show a statistical analysis illustrating why it is too good, that is a combination that is never used in official D&D material, not even for exotic weapons. Even then, with the damage being 1d10 (pretty decent base damage) and finessable included, you've created just about the ultimate sword. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2006 : 00:53:58
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First off, I do beleive a dao is quite a bit closer to what I was thinking of. The first time I ever saw a dao was in the game Eternal Darkness, and I always thought that it was a very interesting weapon.
There was a "equivalency" chart in the 3.0 Arms and Equipment Guide that was very similar to the old charts in the PH from 1st edition, but the problem is that a lot of the "equivalent" weapons ended up with their own stats by the time 3.5 rolled around.
Thanks for the input guys, I'm glad I'm not completely off base with some of my thoughts, at least. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2006 : 12:38:47
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Good call, Blade of Mourn!
Its funny, I have been fascinated with the nagamaki for years, but never drew the similarities to the medieval Europe chopper swords. They are very similar weapons. I think the European chopper swords have more in common with the chinese Dao, what some books and mags call the Chinese war sword... I think it would be the closest equivalent to what KEJr is referring to from the Lord of the Rings. Anyway, I love discussions on ancient weapons! Thanks.
The Dao is more like a Heavy Scimitar or Falchion. Or at least all the examples of one that I have seen, have been. Including the one that I was allowed the honor of holding (briefly) many years ago, when I was participating in a Lion Dance one year while in Junior High. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
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Edited by - warlockco on 06 Jun 2006 12:39:23 |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 00:00:49
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I've noticed recently some historically based "chopper" swords, swords that have relatively short blades, long handles, that are meant to be used to slash two handed. They don't need to be used two handed because of weight so much as they just don't have the proper chopping power for their swings without two hands. Besides the "historical" examples I have seen, the elven war swords at the begining of the Fellowship of the Rings are similar to what I am talking about.
(snip)
http://www.museumreplicas.com/webstore/eCat/Swords%20and%20Knives/Fantasy%20Chopper.aspx
(snip)
Then again, D&D has gotten increasingly less precise in what exactly constitues what weapon (for example, see scimiar, falchion, great scimitar, and great falchion, and sabre).
The names you cite have definite meanings and historical examples of such swords can be looked up in any good encyclopedia of weapons. ("Great" examples being bigger versions, I would presume.)
I do not approve of writers and publishers playing fast and loose with weapon names. Weapons are developed as part of a historical process, and calling a spade a shovel when it's actually a pick does no one any good -- it's sloppy writing and creates a false imprtession with the reader. (I recently read a Conan story -- by Howard - in which he uses a "saber" as a piercing weapon while afoot. AAAARRRGH! A "saber" is a curved, slashing cavalry weapon; as an infantry weapon it is hopelessly outclassed by (for example) a falchion (or a scimitar, for that matter).
Museum Replicas, until quite recently, featured a strange-looking weapon illustrated in the Maciejowski Bible which they called a "chopper" because it was an apparently unique weapon and had no accepted name. (It might have even been the product of the illustrator's imagination -- Quien sabe?) If it was a truly historical weapon, it must have been a vicious thing to be hit with -- what a baseball bat is to blunt force trauma, this "chopper" must have been to slashing damage. I don't know that it would be a particularly Elvish weapon, though; it looked suitable for beheading cattle and might look more at home in the hands of an orc than in the dainty grasp of a Realms Elf.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 05:03:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I do not approve of writers and publishers playing fast and loose with weapon names. Weapons are developed as part of a historical process, and calling a spade a shovel when it's actually a pick does no one any good -- it's sloppy writing and creates a false imprtession with the reader. (I recently read a Conan story -- by Howard - in which he uses a "saber" as a piercing weapon while afoot. AAAARRRGH! A "saber" is a curved, slashing cavalry weapon; as an infantry weapon it is hopelessly outclassed by (for example) a falchion (or a scimitar, for that matter).
Sorry for butting in. Although I mostly agree with you, the Howard example becomes a little to extreme to me. I agree that the wrong naming of weapons and armour is a constant source of irritation, but sometimes it is a case of specialized vocabulary vs common language.
Terms like sabre and two handed swords are collective terms that refer to many different weapons from all over the world, as well as specific sword-types. As many of the sabre type swords of eastern Europe and the middle east are fully capable of being used for thrusting despite being primarily slashing weapons, I don't see Howards use as wrong.
A writer who uses the loose meanings of a term to give the reader a mental picture is doing nothing wrong and has not fallen to "sloppy writing", as long as it is within the boundaries of the language. For someone with a greater knowledge on any field, that will be immensely irritating, but is it written for these specialists? Now, on the other hand, if a writer chooses to use a very specific weapon type, such as Chopper, Saex or Shamshir he should get it right as he then has singled out one design or form.
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 13:19:39
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Arivia, yeah, anytime a new weapon comes out, it does show that there isn't really a specific standard for weapon design. That having been said, my PCs were quite impressed the first time they ran into an orc barbarian with a fullblade.
Ouch...Any survivors? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 17:40:06
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| Actually, yes, but they were cured of saying, "no problem, its just an orc encounter" for a while! |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2006 : 21:04:35
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An excellent resource on weapons and armor was published by Palladium about fifteen years ago for use with their system. It illustrated HUNDREDS of weapons, gave their place of origin and their metric weight. There were separate books on arms, armor, and castles, plus an omnibus edition of all three. I think their titles all began "The Palladium Book of ..."
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2006 : 12:57:37
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Jamallo,
You are quite correct. I have that combination work in my collection. It is an excellent reference book, and not only for fantasy gaming. The information and drawings of armor are great! I will look up the exact title tonight when I get home, just to check... |
ShadowJack |
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"Chopper Swords" and the Realms
