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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 10:36:17
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quote:
The question to me is: when did Obould become the Chosen of Gruumsh? How old is he really? Is there any canon source saying he is NOT the Obould who conquered Adbar? (Or was it Felbar?) If he is one and the same, Gruumsh has chosen him quite a while ago and the orcs catch up only now.
Obould supposedly became a Chosen after a ritual ceremony and after the great orc god was insulted by the dwarves.
As to whether he is the one who conquered Adbar or Felbarr, read this article for some answers.
The Hunter's Blades Trilogy: A History of Many Arrows
I understand that if the other Chosen do live long, then perhaps we can expect Obould to live long as well.
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Maybe, like the humans who were seen as 'savages' by the elves who came before them, orcs are moving up on the evolutionary ladder?
Pray not, or else we would have Warhammer style orcs in FR, no, I prefer that the orcs remain as the idiots and fools they truly are. If not, then war between the Silver Marches and the Orcs would take on a whole new meaning.
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I do think that the intrigues of the Orc Pantheon will be mostly focused on destroying the surrounding powers before they start fighting amongst themselves. Gruumsh's clan is a bunch of sleaze who would kill each other of a scrap of meat but he is nevertheless the clan that fears the Lord of them.
It would not do wise to underestimate the other orc gods in the orc pantheon. Though they had not shown their cards, there remains a possibility they will undermine Gruumsh and his chosen.
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They'll probably wait until Obould's death (unless Gruumsh has made him immortal) and fight over the scraps.
Maybe yes, maybe no. I doubt the other orc gods would content to sit and wait, no, they sure have some plans in their sleeves yet to be shown.
Mod edit: Long URL replaced with link to the same article on the WotC site.  |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Apr 2006 19:42:58 |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 10:42:04
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Oh yes, by the way, from the information in the link I provided, it is damned sure that Obould is going to wage war against the Silver Marches as afterall he is a greedy orc. Also, there is another orc horde not under Obould's command getting ready to hit out at the peaceful lands, and Obould is planning to wait while this horde wrecks some havoc and then go into action against this horde and the weakened kingdoms in the Silver Marches.
So time to jam in the helmets and get ready for the inevitable war against Obould and the other orc horde. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 10:55:15
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| Though I hate to combine science and sorcery, I do wonder if Obould is meant to breed with many other orc womens and the Chosen children will start 'improving' the Orcs like Moradin's Thunder Blessing. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 11:01:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Though I hate to combine science and sorcery, I do wonder if Obould is meant to breed with many other orc womens and the Chosen children will start 'improving' the Orcs like Moradin's Thunder Blessing.
Hmmm...even Mystra's Chosen who most have children of their own, still their children are normal children with no special notable features anyway, their children grew up to be like a common mortal like everyone else. So, I expect Obould's children to be like any other child, normal one.
But if Obould really beds one of Mystra's Chosen, though I did studied Genetics and Mendel's theory before, two possibilities, either the child would become an prodigy in some field or born as a normal child but I reason a prodigy child would be a more likely case.
Also, Moradin's Thunder Blessing is merely a blessing to boost the fledging and diminishing numbers of the dwarven race to prevent the dwarves from dying out due to lack of children to continue the dwarven race. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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silverpriestess
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 11:13:04
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To get back on the military thread, based on the link provided by the Shadovar, it appears the Silver Marches are on the brink of an inevitable epic war.
There are two orc hordes based on the official information by WotC, and one is Army of Many Arrows and the other is a horde not under Obould's command. Whether this Non-Obould commanded horde can achieve any major victories against the Silver Marches is simply hardly going to happen, but the Silver Marches military forces would sure be damaged in some ways, if not weakened. This orc horde is unlikely to challenge Obould or go into his ranks but they may serve as "the battering ram" needed by Obould to strike the first critical blow before Obould launch his well-trained Army of Many Arrows.
Also, Obould's army is reportedly well-drilled and trained sufficiently and backed with allies, so my predictions is that the Silver Marches may lose half of their territory to Obould's army and key major fortresses and cities would come under siege and if Obould had his intelligence reports well read, then the key major fortresses and cities may fall within weeks.
Unless military support from the Heartlands and the Lord Alliance is granted to aid the fledging military of the Silver Marches, the Silver Marches is estimated to fall into Obould's hands with a month or three.
But mercenaries from the Heartlands are considerably insufficient and widespread, hence contact and loyalty problems can be a problem. The Lords Alliance seemed to be an alliance "with no teeth and claws" because it appears that the members are not so willing to stomach that kind of losses that may be incurred if a war is waged against Obould.
Hence, the Silver Marches is considerably in a weaker position to defend herself unless some dragon flight pays attention and render aid to the Silver Marches. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 11:21:47
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Thanks for the reference, Shadovar.
As for taking on all of the Silver Marches, it might have been a long term goal before Hunter's Blade, but if I remember correctly, at the end Obould states that it wasn't one of his immediate goals, or some such thing. We'll have to see.
Warhammer and Warcraft do have 'civilized' orcs, as does Tamriel... the brute savage is always a matter of perspective... some elves do view the humans as savages still.
The article says he is a descendant of the original Obould... but who says that this isn't just his own legend so to speak? Just a thought, it would give the entire character an even more distinctive edge... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 11:42:30
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Well, in the Hunter Blades Book 3, it was mentioned that Dark Arrow Keep or Kingdom was already being built and in the early days of construction. In the website link, it appears that Dark Arrow Keep had been established where the website mentioned that there are traps and arrow slits ready.
Obould sooner or later must launch an invasion of the Silver Marches as his throne seat is getting unstable recently and he must launch the invasion or risk being overthrown, so war is inevitable anyway for the Silver Marches.
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Warhammer and Warcraft do have 'civilized' orcs, as does Tamriel... the brute savage is always a matter of perspective... some elves do view the humans as savages still.
The orcs all follow the chaotic evil Orc Pantheon, so they are expected to remain CE and like the idiots and brutes they truly are. Like what I said, Warhammer and Warcraft styled orcs crossing over into FR simply is against the grain and would diminish the originality of FR, if it does, then I reason there would be epic wars against the orcs regularly which would be a reflection of Dragonlance's near constant epic wars. No, it is best they remain as they are. FR already have too many civilised races that one more cause eleven too many. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 12:02:52
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They do follow a CE pantheon, yes, but than it stands to wonder why Obould with his 'empire' and its 'structure' is Chosen of Gruumsh. An orc like him, who would probably be more at home with a human army, has, in principle, no place in orc society. Or am I reading too much into things?
Maybe the orc empire is Gruumsh's plan to actually sow even more chaos among his own people and the goodly races?
Obould, however, seems (I don't have my source books here at work) rather NE or even LE the way he handles his 'rulership'. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Lameth
Learned Scribe
Germany
196 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 17:09:12
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A word about slaves from Thornhold: 
“Why would a human learn to read the stones or sweat himself dry chipping ore and gems out of solid rock? Why spend twenty years learning the craft of sword smithing, another thirty making practice pieces, then start turning out swords at the cost of a decade apiece? Why go through the trouble to cut and polish gems until they sparkle like the tears of Selune on a clear night? -Why do any of that when you can steal someone else to do it for you?”
-Ebenezer Stoneshaft |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2006 : 01:40:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
They do follow a CE pantheon, yes, but than it stands to wonder why Obould with his 'empire' and its 'structure' is Chosen of Gruumsh. An orc like him, who would probably be more at home with a human army, has, in principle, no place in orc society. Or am I reading too much into things?
Maybe the orc empire is Gruumsh's plan to actually sow even more chaos among his own people and the goodly races?
Obould, however, seems (I don't have my source books here at work) rather NE or even LE the way he handles his 'rulership'.
Actually Obould is of CE alignment according to pg 175 of the FRCS, so in some ways Obould's empire will eventually sow the seeds of hatred and vengeance between the orc race and the races of the light, which may be Gruumsh ultimate plan afterall. Whereby an orc empire will ensure that future generations of the races of the light will know no peace but chaos and near constant warfare. Even Obould's supposedly grand plans had generated a lot of problems in the lower ranks.
An orc like him would not trust a human army whereby the human army might learn when and where to kill him. It is a wonder why Obould is Chosen of Gruumsh with the empire and structure, well that is Gruumsh secret plans or maybe Shargaas or Ilneval secretly manipulating Obould, for both are known to be very intelligent at stealthy work.
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“Why would a human learn to read the stones or sweat himself dry chipping ore and gems out of solid rock? Why spend twenty years learning the craft of sword smithing, another thirty making practice pieces, then start turning out swords at the cost of a decade apiece? Why go through the trouble to cut and polish gems until they sparkle like the tears of Selune on a clear night? -Why do any of that when you can steal someone else to do it for you?”
-Ebenezer Stoneshaft
Well, that saying is a common excuse by the slavers and lazy nobility or whatever to excuse themselves from using their heaven-granted limbs for the work, and it is also the fastest road to decay, disease, and death as Heaven will remove them from those who use this as a common excuse to do the work with their limbs. So I can expect Obould and his lazy orcs to waste and decay away while the slaves and righteous armies of the Light grow stronger. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2006 : 02:31:30
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Well, that saying is a common excuse by the slavers and lazy nobility or whatever to excuse themselves from using their heaven-granted limbs for the work, and it is also the fastest road to decay, disease, and death as Heaven will remove them from those who use this as a common excuse to do the work with their limbs. So I can expect Obould and his lazy orcs to waste and decay away while the slaves and righteous armies of the Light grow stronger.
Slave culture is hardly something that destroys the slave holders sadly as much as we'd like to think it does. It's been in effect in history more often than not.
Obould's slave culture would probably only be so that Obould could build up his military large enough to attack another area. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 20 Apr 2006 02:35:27 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2006 : 11:53:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Actually Obould is of CE alignment according to pg 175 of the FRCS, so in some ways Obould's empire will eventually sow the seeds of hatred and vengeance between the orc race and the races of the light, which may be Gruumsh ultimate plan afterall.
As I said, I was at work and didn't have my books at hand...
yet, he appears NE or LE considering his attitudes etc. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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silverpriestess
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2006 : 01:16:53
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Well I think King Obould great army would be fighting a four-way war, from what I surmised from my research. King Obould may have to face the orc horde not under his control(perhaps beat them and enslave that orc army), he may have to contend with the Silver Marches-dwarven alliance and also the Tanarruks(a breed of half-orcs, half-demons, a superior breed of sub-orcs that are growing in numbers in the Nether Mountains and eager to fight Obould's army).
My thoughts is that King Obould may not be so successful in this invasion and neither side will win anything but bitter defeat and harsh cold glory. If the orc horde that is not under Obould's control charges the Silver Marches, perhaps the Silvaerens may be able to fight them off at a high cost, then Obould's army will sweep in to mop up the remnants of the Silvaerens and the other orc horde but at this moment, the Tanarruks might seize the opportunity to come down and fight King Obould's army. Given that King Obould and his army are the biggest threat in the region, I suspect the Tanarruks, remaining Silvaerens, and the remaining orc horde not under Obould, might unite in a temporary alliance of sorts to finish up King Obould's army, before they finish each other.
So, I am thinking King Obould and his army might fall to bloody defeat but similarly, the Silvaerens may suffer high losses if they are to win the four-way war but unlikely with the Tanarruks around. The Tanarruks may win the fight given their tremendous strength, fighting frenzy and mass numbers. |
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Vainelus
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2006 : 18:19:20
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I think Obould is unlikely to gain any allies that have any interest in actually helping him. Even if Obould could make contact with the Zhents or the Red Wizards, they would likely "support" him only to attempt to use his horde to destroy their opponents. Both groups have always exploited orcs in the past, but never had any intention of allowing Orcs to be their equals(and certainly not allowing them to have their own nation). Also, Obould's kingdom is getting in the way of the Arcane Brotherhoods plans for the Silver Marshes. Obould will most likely have offers of "help" from many sources that plan on using and then discarding him similar to the Drow in the series.
A massive orc horde(such as Obould's) descending on Silver Marshes could spell doom to the fledging nation, because since recently every nation that had a powerful army that would go to the Marshes aid(or at least consider doing so) has recently had their army devastated. Cormyr, Waterdeep, Everska, the wood elves that live in the High Forest and Evermeet have all recently had their armies reduced to mere shadows of the strength they possessed a few years ago. The only "good nation" that would have interest defending Silverymoon is Tethyr and they are far to removed from the situation to send any real aid(and busy with their own problems). However, Silverymoon itself could likely withstand a rather lengthy siege by Obould's army. The mythal protecting the city would prevent the orc and giant forces from coming within a 1000 yards of the walls. And Wizards and clerics using powerful spells from the safety of the city could inflict a significant amount of damage on the orcish forces and force them to encircle the city at a much great distance, thus allowing better chances for supplies to slip through the spread out orcish forces. Not to mention several good aligned deites have made it rather clear that they favor the Gem of the North.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2006 : 18:35:46
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There is another factor with magic that makes seiges less likely to succeed. Create Food and Water, Create Water, Heroes’ Feast, Plant Growth, Purify Food and Drink, Teleport Object as well as things like Wish and [i]gate[i] that while not directly providing baic needs, makes it posible for resupply.
Oh could somebody plaese shorten that URL, a few posts up. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2006 : 01:55:28
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Do Mythals necessarily protect against catapults and ballista?
It could be that Obould could just assault it from beyond and if he's content not to sack the city then he could burn it to the ground.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2006 : 07:26:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Do Mythals necessarily protect against catapults and ballista?
It could be that Obould could just assault it from beyond and if he's content not to sack the city then he could burn it to the ground.
Perhaps yes about the mythal question but even the greatest and strongest mythal will fall and wear down under continous siege. An good example is Myth Drannor's mythal, it was the realm's strongest mythal during its glory days but eventually weakened and worn down under the continuous siege by the Army of Darkness. Silverymoon's mythal pale in comparison with the power of myth drannor's mythal, and less likely to withstand a siege where King Obould brings in powerful magical artillery. For an intelligent orc like him, he would sure know ordinary siege engines won't do much unless powered and fueled by dark magics.
The Silverymoon mythal shields the city and Obould cannot burn the city to the ground unless he seeks a way to corrupt the city's mythal, once the city's mythal had weakened and corrupted, Obould would be able to move his orcs and ordinary siege engines into the city and deal catastrohphic damage and that's when ugly street fighting will occur but Obould's horde will eventually prevail in street fighting in Silverymoon's streets as the orcs possess the attrition factor.
But I am sure Obould would seee Silverymoon as a strategic target of importance to conquer and once the capital of the Silver Marches fall, it would be a great blow to the morale and economy of the defenders of the Silver Marches and a great symbolic and military victory to Obould and swell his image to the orcs. So long the city stands, the defenders will continue to fight so Obould would maximise every possible way and resource in conquering the city. I am certain Alustriel would realize this and swell the garrison within Silverymoon by moving divisions and companies from areas that cannot be defended to boost the defense of the city. Hence in a way, it would be a fight to the death for both sides. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Vainelus
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2006 : 02:24:31
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| Obould lacks the ability to create magical artillery and with the creative use of fly and fire ball spells(or higher level destructive spells) a small group of mages could easily prevent the non-magical siege engines from being a major factor in the fight for Silverymoon. Also the Army of Darkness was a bit more impressive than a large number of orcs and a few giant friends. I think Obould could eventually wear down the defenders of Silverymoon, but it would either take years to starve them out( due to the ability to magically resupply), or Obould would have to gain the help of Zhents, Thayans, the Arcane Brotherhood, Shadovar, or some other powerful group of mages for the magical might he requires. Even if Obould did gain the aid of one of these powerful groups of mages, they are not going to be interested in seeing Obould's army powerful after it's victory. They would more likely than not give Obould enough help that he could take Silverymoon by wearing down the Mythal at a very heavy cost of his own troops and then finish Obould off while he is weak. While Obould is smart for an orc, I do not think he stacks up to the likes of Szass Tam, Fzoul, the Princes of Shade and company. |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2006 : 09:42:46
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Considering that Silverymoon is the prime target and prize of Obould, I think Obould would do his utmost to see that offending sight fall to the ashes. Also, I am not sure what the Army of Darkness used to weaken Myth Drannor mythal but I presumed they used superb artillery to do that.
I agree Thayans and Arcane Brotherhood would not deal with Obould and neither the Zhents would want the Lords Alliance wrath on them, but one thing sure, they do not have the resources and ability to pull such a stunt off. The Shadovar magic is too weak to affect the mythal and the Shadovar have a very low regard for orcs.
Given that Obould had some connections with rogue drow before, and now that he had the wisdom and intelligence of Gruumsh, I suspect that Obould may seek temporary deals with Underdark shady and enigmatic beings, I wouldn't be surprised if Obould secured the aid of drow archmages and sassy looking priestesses of lolth for the job, it may be possible that Obould may attempt to hire the services of Sharn(heard that some live in the deeper regions of the Underdark) or some enigmatic and wise ancient wyrm with tremendous magical power or other powerful beings that are not known widely across the realms. Who knows Gruumsh might lend a hand to help his Chosen secure the aid he needs?
If Obould manages to get the allegiances of these groups, coordinate them with his own clerics and any orc wizards or sorcerers available, Obould can come up with a sort of magical artillery to beat down the mythal of Silverymoon, because he knows the symbolic value of Silverymoon mythal to the defenders-who put their stocks on the mythal- and boost the fighting morale of his troops-by showing that everything is possible through the fall of the mythal. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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MaskedOne
Acolyte
42 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2006 : 18:01:44
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| If memory serves, Myth Drannor's mythal was weakened by the presence of high powered fiends. Silverymoon's may have the same vulnerability, it may not. Obould may or may not have access to high powered fiendish allies. |
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Vainelus
Seeker
USA
59 Posts |
Posted - 24 Apr 2006 : 18:11:36
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The rogue drow approached Obould, not the other way around. Their only interest was to cause havoc and had no desire to see Obould succeed especially when he proved to be more capable. All of the rogue drow had no connection to any of the drow cities, and Obould did not have contact with any drow other than the four rogues. Obould was only able to intimidate the four drow, because they had no where else they could go and by the end of the story they were working against him. I hardly think that the Matron Mothers of Menzoberranzan, or any other drow city would be willing to serve Obould. They would use and discard his forces just like the Thayans, Zhents, and Shadovar. Drow archmages would have the ability to teleport away from Obould rather than be forced into servitude like the previous rogues(who really got what they deserved all things consider). The only thing that kept the rogue drow loyal was that Obould could have killed them at any point, he would not be in this position when negotiating with a group of drow that could provide him with the magical might he requires(such as an entire city of drow, or conclave of archmages). I have little knowledge of Sharn beliefs, so I will take your word that provided Obould could find them they might work with him. Enigmatic and wise ancient wyrms have a tendenancy to be arrogant and self center, I would see such an alliance being similar to Obould’s alliance with Gerti. If Obould could best the dragon in single combat it would serve until it could retreat or arrange Obould’s death.
Gruumish is not known for his wisdom and intelligence especially when playing power politics, I think his appearance in Evermeet demonstrated this rather nicely. Deities do not constantly intervene to protect and see that their chosen succeed. It is just as likely that Mystra would appear and destroy the orcish army to protect Alustriel as Gruumish would appear to lead it. Also Silverymoon, is a holy site to many of the nature deities such as Mielikki and Lurue(who are believed to have blessed the site). If divine intervention occurs, it would probably either result in Gruumish vs. Mystra, Mielikki, Lurue and maybe even an angry Moradin/Clangeddin, or AO would tell all the deities involved that it is time to take a time out and let the mortals succeed or fail on their own merits(the more likely result). Also if we want to give Gruumish some credit for his intelligence and wisdom, he would realize that any intervention is inviting all the deities who hate him and favor the elves, dwarves, and humans of the North to intervene. |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 02:32:33
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Avatars coming down to defend their children? Oh wow, that makes it look like Spellforce histories coming alive. Well, from what I suspect and I agree that Gruumsh may not be smart, but he have two other orc deities who can provide him with wise plans-though their loyalties to Obould is not guranteed-hence the plans may be passed on to Obould's mind through dreams or the cleric's sermons.
The drow archmages may treat orcs like slaves but they know when not to fight or snub or act arrogant when they recognize the power and intelligence of a great person like King Obould, surely they will cautiously deal with Obould. Also, drow are well known for their hatred of surface dwellers and an opportunity to capture a mythal or maybe seize one will stoke up their greed. Obould should be wise enough to know that the mythal of Silverymoon needs the great powers of enigmatic beings to damage, hence an alliance with the drow may allow him access to summon the creatures of the lower planes through drow help.
Gruumsh may act like a stupid orc god but I suspect it may be a feign and pretence, for being the head of the orc pantheon demands that he be wise and smart enough to keep the rebels in the orc pantheon at bay. An alliance with dragons is possible provided Obould can locate agents of the Dragon Cult and placate their undead masters with treasure and information as well as mercenaries. This cannot be dismissed as unlikely.
Lastly, Mystra is unlikely to come down to destroy the orc army as her actions would have very disastrous consequences on the mortal world and I am very certain she knows the dire punishments imposed on her by Lord Ao if she does that.
From what i think, the mortals are supposed to act as they will(free will) and be responsible for their own actions and destinies and that includes the Chosen. If the gods are to act like protective parents, then this would cause the mortals to be too reliant on their gods for daily needs and whatever, for the gods are to serve the mortals but that doesn't mean they should stop the mortals from being responsible for their actions and destinies.
Mystra's appearance may very well mean Shar's appearance and more would come and fight, hence a divine war occurs on the mortal plane. No, I think if Silverymoon were to fall, that's it like all the events that had happened to the past empires and cities of the past, for the gods all know that all things must have an beginning, all things must have an end and that includes Silverymoon.
Hence, to them, Silverymoon is just another passing memory for they know that again another great city that is dedicated to them will rise again and again it will fall. I am sure the gods cannot stop change from happening especially when that change is needed for the future, be it for ill or good.
Also, Obould knows that he will risk the wrath of the races of the light and even the deities sure knows this piece of cold truth as they fight among each other too.
To me, they the gods know that the balance is always maintained and they cannot always defend their children or else their children will never "grow up and learn".
So King Obould and his great orc hordes would eventually sack and destroy Silverymoon and defeat the combined allied armies of the light. But even so, Obould and his army victory will be short lived, for one day, another stronger army of the Light and those who survived the earlier war would drive them away and defeat the orc hordes and restore Silverymoon.
This way, the Silvaerens would learn what is the price of freedom and learn wisdom and learn that diplomacy and hiding in their false lies that Obould will not attack is the fastest road to defeat. If this is true, then I think this is what the gods want their children and followers to learn, learn the cold truth and gain wisdom through trials by fire. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 02:47:34
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I think that the IMAGE of Grummsh is that of being less than intelligent because that is how his children act right now . . . BTW . . . in Deities and Demigods Grummsh is noted as having an Intelligence of 24 and Wisdom of 25. Not that I always give deity stats that much mind . . .
When the orcs came to the Realms via the Portal in the Old Empires, they came from a pretty civilized world. There is evidence of old orc kingdoms in places like Thar. The question really isn't wheather orcs CAN be intelligent and wise enough to have a "civilized" kingdom, but if they can do so again, after having lost thier kingdoms in the past. |
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silverpriestess
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 02:54:43
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I agree with Shadovar's explanation. Like all the past great empires and cities of the past, they all had great beginnings and I am certain many were dedicated to the great gods and even so, these empires and great cities also fell into the dust eventually as the gods watch. Hence, no matter how great and glorious and important Silverymoon may be to the gods, eventually it must fall and nothing can stop the sands of Time from doing it.
The gods are constant and true, mortals come and go as time passes, the loss of Silverymoon will be a great loss of followers but they also know that the loss of one forest doesn't equal the loss of the entire world, so it is no big deal to them so long they have followers who believe in them. Hence they the gods are not likely to intervene in Silverymoon's defense be it there are ten thousand Chosen of Mystra hiding there, they won't and that sure. Yes, the truth is painful and cold but no one can disagree the power of truth that the truth is mighty and shall prevail.
Furthermore they want followers who are independent and truely believing in their faiths even to the end in the face of overwhelming odds. They want worthy followers and not followers who are weak and turn to them in the face of overwhelming odds, if so, then the gods' teachings are simply a great waste of effort on the gods' part. So to them, if Silverymoon falls, so be it. If Silverymoon stands, so be it, for the sands of Time bring changes that are for both good and ill. The gods are gods and not protective parents, hence there is a limit to the extent they care for their followers and children, if the gods are to protect their followers against that enemy and so on, then that defeats the purpose of having mortal followers and teaching them the dogma of the gods. For the mortals who are followers of the gods are expected to live and die by the teachings of their gods.
As holy Silverymoon may be to the gods, but it is still a city of stone and flesh, what is holy inside the city? The temples? the clerics? the followers? the holy blessings on the city? Silverymoon is considered holy in the eyes of the mortals only, but it is not considered holy in the eyes of the gods who know that the city is merely a non-living thing and nothing more. What makes the city holy is the faith of the citizens inside the city, who believe in their gods, and that is what makes the city holy and this is how the gods view it.
So my answer for Silverymoon is plain simple. The gods will not intervene and they will not aid in the defense of the city directly or indirectly other than keeping their clerics powers going. Everything is up to the mortals to decide for themselves, and whether Silverymoon stands or falls depends on the will of Time and Fate. I say Silverymoon is doomed for sure and if this is true, nothing can change that and even the gods must accept this truth, even if there are there are ten thousand Chosen of whatever god inside. They know that one day, their Chosen ones must fade away into the sands of Time. Obould and his army would eventually destroy Silverymoon and the Silver Marches, but eventually Obould, Chosen he may be and his mighty armies must perish and fade away into the sands of Time. For Silverymoon may be a wreck by that time, but eventually new mortals and new Chosens will rebuild the city and restore, repopulate the Silver Marches again. And again, the followers of the gods and dedication to the gods will return. Everything changes and nothing is permanent as the saying goes "Nothing is forever".
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MaskedOne
Acolyte
42 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 04:50:16
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Truth is itself, be that a cold, hard sword, a rally call that can provide hope and rally an army, or simply the careful words of a friend that shatter despair and ease pain because those words are true and known to be true. Truth remains itself. It is also being applied too easily here considering that the we are talking about a world where divine intervention is commonplace. The gods may or may not intervene.
Divinities sat on the throne of Mulhorand for most of its history. They actively defend Evermeet, one of the dwarven pantheon is fading in large part because of all the effort he puts into shielding dwarven settlements, Lolth was directly involved in helping assault Evermeet, divinities aided but did not save Myth Drannor, the list of points where gods move directly in mortal affairs is long and varied. So is the list of points where there actions do not grant a complete victory or they simply don't act. Their intervention or lack there of in the affairs of Silverymoon is not predictable one way or another. It serves a purpose for many and as such may earn defense but it can also serve a purpose as a legend to inspire future generations. Personally, I think if it comes under siege in the near future then it will probably gain a great deal of defense. Give it a couple centuries, let it grow stagnant and there will be some intervention but like Myth Drannor it will fall and its idealized legend will become a tool to inspire future generations. Yes, all things of the mortal world may change or pass with time but that time is not necessarily now. There is even in divine matters, a time and place for everything and I do not think it is quite time to let Silverymoon fade but then again I'm not a divinity and I can't predict them any better than the rest of the world.
Hmm, out of curiosity, how are the divinities of Toril constant? They last longer than some mortal civilizations sure but there is history of dead and lost gods to argue against them being too constant. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 06:57:08
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| I don't got much to add except this: Monster's of Faerun, in the Peryton entry, says Obould has a alliance with these beasts. Most odd that that has never been expanded on. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 09:50:35
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Well I think Silverymoon had become stagnant and had not faced a serious siege for a long time, for centuries since the last combat it faced, it had been considered a haven for learning and refuge, but eventually such places must fall.
The divinities of Toril are near-constant, almost constant and one doesn't find dozens of dead gods raining from the skies everyday, in my estimation, it might happen once every ten milleniums or so but even a god passes away, Lord Ao may intervene such as in the case of Torm the God of Duty. Therefore the pantheon is always almost constant, unchanging but mortals come and go.
Hmm, it was true that Evermeet was attacked by forces inspired by by evil forces but other than Angharradh fighting the Elder Evil, I didn't see Correllon manifesting to challenge lolth and Malar's Avatars. It was true that divinities sat on the throne of Mulhorand but it was also the greatest flaw of Mulhorand's defense for the defenders simply placed too much stock in their avatar kings and when their avatar kings fell, their morale and spirit was dealt a great blow and the defense faltered and hundreds got slain. The deities may fade but Silverymoon is merely a tree among the whole forest to the gods, and the gods have followers-sizable-enough elsewhere and to them the loss of one tree is nothing compared to the loss of the whole forest. If the gods are to even secretly lend aid to their followers, then even the opposing gods would lend aid to their own as well. This would encourage a dependency habit that the gods overtime will be annoyed and tired of it. No, the gods want worthy thinking self-reliant faithful followers and Silverymoon defenders must prove themselves as worthy followers through trial by fire no matter what happens even in the face of defeat.
If divine intervention were to be invoked for the defense of Silverymoon, the gods are highly unlikely to do that as some do not wish to run afoul of Ao's laws and many simply do not want to earn the hatred of more enemies than what they can face say Selune doesn't want to fight Gruumsh as she have enough enemies to deal with. Example, if Moradin avatar beat Gruumsh avatar at the Battle of the Silver Marches today, the next day, Gruumsh would persuade Talona or Yutrus to spread plague and pestilence among the dwarves or get his orcs go into vengeance fit and kill dwarves in retaliation, and Moradin suffers for his earlier action through the loss of hundreds of followers, if Moradin did not fight Gruumsh avatar, then perhaps he would had lost a fraction of his followers in the Battle of the Silver Marches compared to the loss of hundreds of followers. Sometimes, divine assistance cannot be relied upon. Also, divine sneaky aid will be scented out by the alert ones and vengeance will rain on the one who supplied divine sneaky aid.
Silverymoon is like Myth Drannor, for to the mortals, it is a grand place of great glory and they will mourn and grieve for its loss. But to the gods, it is merely a passing memory in their immortal lives and the gods don't mourn for their followers deaths nor do they miss this city because it was a grand city, to them it is merely a passing memory in their immortal lives. For they know even if Silverymoon falls, there will be new followers again in the future. They cannot always intervene here and there in mortal affairs as this would sure go against the inevitable changes Time brings that must happen and come, also may go against what is beyond their stated duties and these may very well oppose Ao's law.
Even the gods cannot always oppose Time for if it must happen by the dictates of Time, even the gods must bow to the harsh cold power of Time and accept the changes that Time brings. I am sure Lord Ao knows this as well.
Mystra cannot always defend her own Chosen for she knows that her children must learn to stand again through self-reliance after they had fallen and not rely on divine aid and that one day every single Chosen must fade away. Even Gruumsh knows this cold truth, that's why the gods are never willing to show or tell their followers when they are going to die, for it would cause even the most faithful to falter in their faith.
Silverymoon is already old enough and like Myth Drannor must take its place in the annals of history, for her fall is needed for the greater good of the future or her future.
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We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
Edited by - Shadovar on 25 Apr 2006 09:57:21 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 25 Apr 2006 : 11:21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Silverymoon is already old enough and like Myth Drannor must take its place in the annals of history, for her fall is needed for the greater good of the future or her future.
How is the greater good served by the fall of a bastion of good?  |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 02:00:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Silverymoon is already old enough and like Myth Drannor must take its place in the annals of history, for her fall is needed for the greater good of the future or her future.
How is the greater good served by the fall of a bastion of good?
For the greater good of the future or her future, yes. The races of the light and the people of Silverymoon need a rude awakening to shake them up to the true threat posed to them, to remove the veil of impregnability and complacency from the eyes of the people of the Silver Marches and Silverymoon. Also, for the orcs and Obould's legacy would be considered a great threat in the future and since no one is willing to go erase them from existence, the fall of Silverymoon would remind the future generations of their predecessors failure and complacency that had led to their defeat and the city fall, hence these future generations of the races of the light will learn from their forebears' mistakes and take more proactive measures to defeat and destroy the orcs. Sometimes, harsh measures must be taken to ensure the future of the greater good. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 26 Apr 2006 : 02:11:59
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| Problems with this theory: There's no evidence of Silverymoon being complacent. They have weathered harsh trials, such as the recent assault of demons from Hellgate Keep, and it would be very strange if they were complacent. Their leaders are only too aware of the threat of the orc hordes, which have come down scores of times in Alustriel's living memory, and which return however many leaders or armies are wiped out. |
Edited by - Faraer on 26 Apr 2006 02:15:51 |
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King Obould situation: Military Analysis thread
