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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 04:19:01
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Direct from the Heroes' thread. Basically a discussion of what should have been done in this war, where the screw ups on both sides are, and what could have been corrected.
I think that its important not to underestimate the limitations of resources, the issues of mindset, and also causally dumping the genius of enemies themselves.
In the case of Silverymoon, the issue comes up that what you're pointing out IS necessary if they need to secure the peace. Obould's Crusade (for lack of a better term for the holy war he's conducting) is the nightmarish worst case scenario that everyone in the Silver Marches has feared from the beginning of the settlement. A concentrated uprising of the Native peoples against the settlers. I think a good example is essentially a Tecumseh unification that potentially has the power to repulse the human enroachment in their lands.
Though a Chosen, its my belief Alustriel is accurate in the fact that there's no way to stop Obould's forces if they're directly engaged and that Drizzt's idea to gradually widdle them down while striking at the unity behind the religious figure of Obould is the only way to stop him. In effect, outlive the Orc and watch the kingdom descend to anarchy.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 04:27:32
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But I really do think, even though she would be hard pressed to convince the dwarves of the Silver Marches, that Alustriel truly thinks that if Obould ends up with a nation of his own, with trade concerns and worry about a legacy to carry on, that the orcs might become less dangerous, and perhaps even nullify the orc threat for centuries to come, beyond just smashing them right now and hoping they don't breed too fast.
Of course, the flip side of this is that if the Silver Marches, as a whole, dedicates themselves to disloging Obould, they are vulnerable to various other factions. For example, had they commited themselves to this course of action when the Fey'ri blew through, how much more dangerous would the situation have been? What about the the Phaerimm forces that tore through the north? The Silver Marches can't really afford to focus solely on one threat.
And they there is the major trump car. Lets say, at great expense the Silver Marches wipes out Obould, the Phaerimm armies, and the Fey'ri that have been recent threats. There are still the giants of the Shining White, and we don't know if Lolth's return will kindle in the dark elves a need to retake the surface, especially if Silverymoon or other cities of the Silver Marches seem to be weakened.
And finally . . . the Shadovar . . . what else do I have to say.
Better to defend what you have and fortify, especially if you have allies like the Lord's Alliance cities. |
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MaskedOne
Acolyte
42 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 04:33:24
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If memory serves (it may not, I haven't looked up the matter in a while and don't feel like doing so now), an orc purge was arranged by the Netherese and led by Ioulaum back pre-Karsus. They were successful but the results hurt like hell and they weren't fighting a unified kingdom just an overwhelming Horde. I would not enjoy trying with the resources available to the Silver Marches, a repeat of the Netheril trick. If they succeeded (big if), they'd be lunch meat for any other major hostile power in the area or possibly for a couple thousand fey'ri who have access to a portal network and may be fleeing an elven crusade (again) in the near future.
To get rid of the nation. Kill Obould, set chieftain against chieftain probably through some form of mind manipulation and let the orcs destroy or at least weaken each other. *shrug* Well, that or re-create the Killing Storm but that tends to have bad results and nation killing weaponry irritates me in both fantasy and reality, 99 times out of 100.
To gamble high stakes, stabilize the nation and see if you can civilize some orcs. I'd actually enjoy seeing this one attempted just for an odd change but like I said it's a gamble, a profoundly large one. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 04:51:21
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The main thing its important to remember is this silly alliance aside, the Silver Marches are still a bunch of city states in what amounts to frontier territory controlled by the humanoids that live there.
Alkar Kessel managed to raise a gigantic army of humanoids by his artifact and that was within just a little while. The implications are there's thousands of tribes out there of various races and orcs are probably a majority but not necessarily a huge one.
If Obould can get more than just some frost giants then the Marches are finished no matter what they do |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 04:59:18
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But then we go back to Obould's own motivation. Yes, at first, early in his life, he sees taking back Citadel Felbarr as a good idea, but as he gets older, he starts to want something more, lasting . . . Obould has more ambition than most orcs, and it cuts both ways.
If Obould attacks now, he has a sizable army, but if the Silver Marches are prepared and keep an eye on him, they may be able to weather the storm (though some of the smaller towns may be wiped out one way or the other).
However, the more Obould spends time gathering more tribes to him, and increasing his Kingdom of Dark Arrows, the more he has mouths to feed, generals to impress, and results to produce. He walks a fine line, because if his horde becomes TOO big, then it HAS to sack Silverymoon just to keep everyone happy. Anything less would be very bad for Obould himself.
On the other hand, if Obould gets a large nation built, but one that he can manage, say, by raiding a town here or there, a caravan here or there, maybe a small dragon or some giants, some hobgoblin or gnoll tribes, he might be able to build a longer lasting, stronger nation overall. But a few too many tribes under his banner, and he HAS to act or else they start getting hungry (litterally) and he has to produce results.
Obould's situation is as precarious as the Silver Marches is, from what I see. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 05:26:02
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That's definitely the point. If Drizzt HAD killed Obould then essentially that would have destroyed his nation then and there. Alustriel is right that Orc Crusades are built on cults of personality and if Drizzt had assassinated him then it would have resulted in a civil war that would have devastated the Orc populations of the region for decades.
Obould is a Chosen though potentially so its questionable if he IS going to die though |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 06:59:12
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Well, lets consider the current modern situation in the Far North. While the Kingdom of Dark Arrows is rising rather fairly fast, King Obould would temporaily cease assaults against any of his foes on the hit list, as consolidating and strengthening defenses of the kingdom should be a top priority for any king naturally.
The Orc Hordes are not likely to sit in peace and idle away given the orcs nature. As time passes, Obould must either wage war against the Silver Marches and Mithral Hall to appease the growing tension in the orc ranks or risk his seat to those lower generals who consider him too weak to carry out Gruumsh will and lead the orcs. Obould also knows that the Kingdom lands are pretty barren and near-devoid of food and important resources, so invasion and pillaging is naturally a highly supported option among the orcs that Obould cannot deny for long. As the hordes grow larger, control over them will become slippery and either way, the orc hordes would charge regardless of Obould will it or not.
As for the dwarves, the dwarves of Mithral Hall suffered near-devastating casualties during the war and Mithral Hall is damaged or sealed in certain sections due to the war, and with the dwarven King and the Hall's main defenders away on some adventure(supposedly yes), there is a high risk that Obould would recognize the nice opportunity to move in and sack Mithral Hall, the defenders of Mithral Hall may hold out for several months but if the leaders and main defenders do not return in time, the situation will be a sad thing indeed. If it ever happens, the dwarves are more likely to call on Citadel Adbar or Felbarr for aid but i don't know how the Steward can rally aid without Bruenor around and if aid can arrive in time, the allied forces must be coordinated properly to mount an effective defense, perhaps King Emerus Warcrown can do that but whether Emerus is willing to come or not is another question to wander about if Bruenor is not around. If aid do not come, then the defenders may have to flee through the Underdark Tunnels linking to Adbar or Felbarr for refuge and seal the tunnels to stop any enthusiastic orcs from following. But given the current military health of Mithral Hall and Felbarr, it is still a few levels from operationally ready status.
Considering High Lady Alustriel and her Confederation. The Silvaerens have a fortified military outpost with a formidable garrison at Winter's Edge town that is east of the River Subrin and east of the eastern gate of Mithral Hall. Though reinforcements from the outpost can head over to aid Mithral Hall anytime but the dangerous part is the crossing across River Subrin where in Book 3, the orcs and giants had shown what can happen when crossing the river. In my perspective, Obould hordes would likely launch a double offensive against the Eastern Gate of Mithral Hall and as well as hit out at Winter's Edge to prevent both sides from reinforcing each other. Winter's Edge is quite far from the nearest Confederation fortress and is on the edge of the world, so it would be a desperate fight to hold both areas against a double offensive. Destroying Winter's Edge would be more of an important priority if I were Obould as this will remove a fair source of Silvaeren's strength(as quite a number of troops are here) and stop any reinforcements from going to Mithral Hall. If the attacks are carried out with perfect precision and coordination, then too bad but hardly to happen as orcs are never known for precision and carrying out drills but cannot be dismissed too lightly.
The Silver Marches are wide and far and is impossible to defend every area and city as this can stretch military forces to dangerously thin lines, neither is cooping up in a fortress a nice idea either as long-term siege is no fun thing either. Neither allowing the Orc hordes to rampage around the lands is a good idea too, so it is best decisive action be taken early and quick. If Obould is stupid and really hit out at Winter's Edge, then the Silvaeren's best chance of fighting the orc hordes would be at Winter's Edge and its strategic importance should and must be strengthened to prevent orc hordes from causing scars to the Silver Marches and reaching any important city or disrupting trade routes which is important to the functioning of the military and economic health. If not, then the grounds of battle in the Silver Marches have to be prepared and villages and settlements near the front lines evacuated and set up as ambush points for the orc hordes(let them camp in first then destroy). But sadly, it is a matter of whether the Confederation is willing to mount a united response to Obould and his army or are they willing to spend large amount of resources to prepare for a inevitable war with Obould and his legions.
The war against Obould and his formidable legions is expected to be prolonged and very devastating to the Silver Marches if allowed to happen because it is suspected that he will draw even more worst allies into his fold, and he will is more likely to cut and slash about.
Now to the counterstrike strategies, a pre-emptive strike strategy to target the weak points in the Orc Kingdom heirachy is the best option, removing key lesser leaders and maybe Obould(hard target)will postpone the invasion a little longer. Professional Assassins with shade-like abilities are highly recommended for the job.
A psychological attack approach is a more effective method, it would be effective if the orc hordes are driven to slaughter each other like what they often do regularly by insinuating dark words and planting doubt in the orc ranks, by exploiting and blowing up every doubt and rumor in the orc ranks, causing defiance and insubordination in the orc ranks. The way to carry it out would be false clerics of the orc gods especially Gruumsh, which orcs would listen with open ears and trust blindly.
The last approach and probably the most expensive approach would be to develop powerful magical artillery like Crenishiboon's focused destructive light beam weapon, such weapon would serve as a formidable barrier to the orc hordes given the potential killing power but I doubt anybody can develop it. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 09:26:20
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Obould is, as far as I understand his positions in the last trilogy, content with his gains, he wants to form a nation and trade. Certainly he must appease his 'wilder' brethren, but if the Obould is Gruumsh-hysteria can be pursued even further, and I think that is his/Gruumsh's goal, there will be no need for more expansion, after all he(they?) wants a nation.
Obould is wise enough to recognize that to expand even further would call more foes against him. Elves, dwarves, humans. He was, if I remember coerrectly, very specific about not taking too much land with the future goal of trading. It will be interesting to see the first orcish caravan (what the bloody hell do they want to deal with???) arrive in Silverymoon.
Obould is on par with Mystra's Chosen in terms of intellect, or so it seems, so it can be assumed that he will choose a diplomatic solution from now on. We've already seen how apt he is at getting what he wants, I for one will most definitely enjoy seeing him discuss matters of state with Alustriel... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Lameth
Learned Scribe
Germany
196 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 13:34:29
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Obould has to give up the war traditions of the orc tribes. The orcs have to work in the fields and settle down, to get a realm which can trade with dwarfs and humans....
If Obould can`t manage that his new kingdom will break down. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 13:36:35
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| Agreed... we'll see if this idea is actually touched again in Realms fiction. Personally I would love to see an orc kingdom |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 17:13:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Personally I would love to see an orc kingdom
That makes one of us.  |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 17:21:58
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| Hey I was in process of starting one, though membership is low right now. About 30 orcs, one Orrg and two Elven Slaves (one Drow and Shaman for the small kingdom) *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 17:23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Personally I would love to see an orc kingdom
That makes one of us.
I'm indifferent towards the concept of an "orc kingdom".
I'd have to have more of a justification for its existence in the northern Realms, that is... through the lore, beyond what RAS might establish.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 17:33:41
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Obould could also handle it in the manner of other orcs to create a peacetime economy (slavery). The trick is of course would make it utterly impossible to trade in Silvery Moon. So that's an option for him for his peacetime economy. A slave state with farming and the orcs looming over the lesser races.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 18:20:16
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He could trade slaves with Thay, Mulhorand and a few others.
They could go public with it. The Faerûnian Index for Drudges...aka FUD |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 18:39:27
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Very true.
The trick is supply lines honestly, if Obould could get a pathway for Zhentarim (though Khelben's pact with Fzoul could be the end of that) or otherwise then the Orcs could maintain themselves militarily plus 'work out their natural aggressive tendencies' in abuse. They'd manage to get enough supplies to feed themselves and probably be able to build up their forces, armaments, and so on to make war an unenviable process.
(Though given Gruumush is pulling the strings- war is inevitable)
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 18:45:00
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I will repeat what I said on another thread, Slaves do not grow on trees. Yes perhaps selling slaves could be part of the econimy of a nation, but there are only two sources of them (current population or capture from outer lands) and take time to be born in the first place. To hold together clans a sentence of service of an orc will need to appear (not just be) just. To get slaves from outside of course will expand the war front and increase the number that want revenge and distruction of the nation building.
Orcs generally give me the image of hunter gathers, however they do found communities and do some craft work (after all only orcs would make an orce weapon) so trade of goods are posible of things more then just slaves. Even if they do not take up farming and hold enough land to hunt and gather, craft goods as well, such a nation can survive. The biggest thing of holding a nation together is develping a sense of nation, that clans having to give up some of their individuality (rights of revenge against other clans for example) for a greater good and higher law of a king of chiefs. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 20:57:48
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'd have to have more of a justification for its existence in the northern Realms, that is... through the lore, beyond what RAS might establish.
There are examples in Realms Lore where Orcs apparently have 'settled down' - think Thesk or Amn (Purskul). Maybe Gruumsh's one eye did wander off to these areas and inspired Him to achieve something similar by maneuvering Obould. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 22:42:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Very true.
The trick is supply lines honestly, if Obould could get a pathway for Zhentarim (though Khelben's pact with Fzoul could be the end of that) or otherwise then the Orcs could maintain themselves militarily plus 'work out their natural aggressive tendencies' in abuse. They'd manage to get enough supplies to feed themselves and probably be able to build up their forces, armaments, and so on to make war an unenviable process.
(Though given Gruumush is pulling the strings- war is inevitable)
Now I'm scared...I was being sarcastic...or ironic... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2006 : 22:47:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'd have to have more of a justification for its existence in the northern Realms, that is... through the lore, beyond what RAS might establish.
There are examples in Realms Lore where Orcs apparently have 'settled down' - think Thesk or Amn (Purskul). Maybe Gruumsh's one eye did wander off to these areas and inspired Him to achieve something similar by maneuvering Obould.
But those examples have nothing to do with Gruumsh... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 01:48:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I'd have to have more of a justification for its existence in the northern Realms, that is... through the lore, beyond what RAS might establish.
There are examples in Realms Lore where Orcs apparently have 'settled down' - think Thesk or Amn (Purskul). Maybe Gruumsh's one eye did wander off to these areas and inspired Him to achieve something similar by maneuvering Obould.
But those examples have nothing to do with Gruumsh...
No, but they may have given Obould the incentive he needs for creating a Gruumsh-blessed orc domain in an area of his choosing.
Mumadar has a point. If Obould could instill a sense of "settling down" among his own orcs, he may very well establish the basis needed for creating a (somewhat) stable orc kingdom -- though I don't see it being anything permanent. Orcs aren't a stable race afterall.
And the Purskul example only actually worked because the orcs were enslaved and there was strong "enforcement" by Amnian armies. So, perhaps, an orc kingdom would need to be bound by similar aspects... a strong central force (or concept of enslavement) that ensures adherence to the kingdom itself.
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Edited by - The Sage on 19 Apr 2006 01:52:18 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 02:44:24
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I tend to doubt, though, that Obould knew anything of those distant groups of orcs. I could see it being a kind of inspiration for him, but only if he knew. Considering the distance to either locale, and the fact that it's not likely to be something people talk about a lot, I don't think Obould has had a chance to learn of the settled orcs.
On a side note... I wonder how Obould would react upon meeting a priest of Almighty Dukagsh?  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 02:53:50
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Perhaps not specifically, no... but as myths or legends among various orc groups, I would think, having passed somewhat across stretches of the Realms. Fractured remembrances maybe, or even the odd reference mentioned through orc songs or tribal chants. Enough, perhaps, for Obould to look into them as a historical curiosity.
I still don't see an orc kingdom as viable for the Realms at this point though... not without suitable and lengthy support through the lore first.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4687 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 03:18:00
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There are two ways to build a nation, religion and a common sense of purpose. The first might br served by ocr shamens (whom have a history of claiming all shamens of nother clans, even if they worship the same deity, as heritics, become united under a great and unifing leader. This option appears unlikely even with a Chosen, the petty disputes would remai.
The second option is the message of we against them with the added our heritage. This can be best served with orc bards telling the tales (perhaps some invented) of thw power of a nation of orcs. Within the realms these bards of course bring more then just words, they bring healing, combat magic when needed and could provide a unifing message.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 03:24:47
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The Orcs could well become a Mongol equivalent though (or Huns since we already have a Tugian Horde equivalent). If Obould can create a sizeable military advantage over the other groups in the area then they could more or less simply loot and pillage like Tammerlane while establishing themselves as a nobility over the lesser peoples in the area.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 03:52:25
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Moments ago we were talking of the military situation, now to enconomics and nation-building...sigh.
Oh yes, by the way, a stable strong orc kingdom is not very appealing and would be more like a Warcraft crossover into FR world, diminishing the originality of the FR world.
Well, a nation on FR is built upon the pillars of loyalty of citizenry, capable leadership, economy, military power and allies as well as strong magic, religion can be an influential force but most of the time religion takes over the rulers. Obould's Kingdom is considerably lacking in strong magic and economy while the loyalty of the orc citizenry is questionable, military power and religion is strong so is the leadership(for now). Obould's kingdom is considered rather unstable and fragile.
The land the orcs had taken is quite barren, mountains here and there and rough, rather inhospitable. For food, I think the orcs can shepherd Underdark Rothes for food. Yet, they are considerably lacking in wood and other vital materials needed for a kingdom. I doubt orcs would be so hardworking to go till the fields and mine the ore or do the peasant work, as this would be an insult to their fighting honor as they view themselves as born fighters not laborers. So, it is highly likely that Obould would have to raid the Silver Marches for precious raw materials or use military force to threaten the Silver Marches into trading the essential items they needed, which I doubt the orcs have anything worthy to trade. Secondly, the hardcore and anti-orc leaders and the hidden Covenant organization would be unpleased and against trading essential materials with the orcs and they would do whatever it takes to sabotage, renounce and yell and prevent any deal between the "weak leaders of the Confederation" and the orcs.
I am very certain Obould knows this and unlikely to go ahead with a deal with the Silver Marches, rather he would seek to make a deal with shadowy organizations in Luskan and the drow such as acquiring slaves and so on. But such activities are not likely to go unnoticed and sooner or later, vigilante organizations would disrupt it. In terms of leadership and religion, Obould seemed to use harsh brutal commands to maintain loyalty and respect-but cannot be used for long as eventually the lower ranks would rebel- and also, orcs are too restless to follow commands from Gruumsh chosen to settle and think, they are more likely to seeth and fume secretly.
Considering that, there are other greater orc powers in the Orc Pantheon that are not bound to sit around and watch and are sure unhappy that Gruumsh chosen is stealing the limelight from them and gaining, so they may seek to put in their own Chosen to challenge Gruumsh control of the orcs and challenge Obould with their own Chosen, and lead the orc masses to their beliefs. So again, the orc masses would be divided between Gruumsh and the other orc gods, it won't be long before a religious war would break out over who is more important. if Obould wins, he will lose half or a portion of his military forces.
Lastly, Gruumsh is a evil god and he will not stand the other races of light and the other gods of light. It is very likely (I am damned sure it would happen) that Gruumsh would seek to subtly implant thoughts of "conquest, glory, orc empire over Faerun, other races as orc slaves, orcs remembered throughout history glorious annals" and Obould cannot ignore such thoughts for long, one day, he will sure lead the orcs on a conquest, catching the Silvaeren nations by surprise(supposedly they think won't happen because they assume orcs want to stabilize their own kingdom and trading with orcs can ward off war), Obould would sure want to set up his own capital in a favorable land with abundant resources than in a rugged wasteland mountain. If Obould cannot do this, then he is not worthy of the title of "Gruumsh Chosen" and even the orc hordes would eventually recognize it and topple their leader.
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We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 04:09:50
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Well the Military Situation of Obould and Company isn't off topic per say, at least about how I was discussing it. The whole point is how untenable Obould's situation is military and certainly economics, politics, and sociology fit into it.
I don't see a problem with expanding the basis scope of the topic in order to thoroughly discuss it to the ground as all good topics should be.
But yes, I do some possibilities for Obould having his cake and eating it too...
1. The Slave Situation can be resolved by enslaving humanoids as well as the barbarian tribesmen of the region whom aren't going to be necessarily a part of the Silver Marches. The Orcs themselves can use them for mining, building, farming, and the like. It's important to remember that Orcs aren't necessarily stupid. They're just violent and atavistic.
2. The Zhentarim are a trading Empire first and foremost and so are the Red Wizards. Obould has shown he's intelligent enough to make deals with the frost giants, he might well be smart enough to make deals with these groups of unscrupulous humans. I point out that plenty of Zhentilar have retired in the Marches. Its entirely possible that Obould may have a thriving blackmarket link to Silverymoon soon. The Underdark might also have other trade.
3. Orcs are mostly warriors and hunters and gatherers but its clear that some weaker males might be drafted into forming shepherding and other aspects. The Orcs furthermore have been known to be excellent smiths in some respects and certainly can husband their beasts for riding.
The skills are there.
4. Orcs are fully capable of having a regimented system despite their chaotic evil ways. If Obould can set up a pyramidal pecking order then the majority of individuals will probably challenge their ways up by heirarchy then rather than simply all plotting to take his throne per say.
5. One shouldn't underestimate Orc shamanism for magical might if Gruumsh has made a chosen. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 19 Apr 2006 04:19:36 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 08:16:25
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Analyzing his strategy...
it has been a while since I read the books, but I think Obould was not only counting on brute force. He knew that the fire and forget tactics of regular orc tribes would not be enough to win over the highly organzied dwarves. His use of diversions and the implementation of giants as 'artillery' were certainly not novel in terms of warfare, but he, an orc, using and applying them and the following success were a surprise to everybody involved, including the giants.
From a military standpoint he used superior firepower, and controlled all environs of the battlefield including the ways a possible relief army could have arrived. Obould plotted and planned like an experienced strategist and was able to anticipate any *normal* combat action. The only thing he was unable to anticipate (a minor setback really) was the destruction of his artillery positions on one mountaintop.
I think that no one had anticipated how well executed the orc king's plans were...
To get this thing back on track! |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 09:46:33
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quote:
1. The Slave Situation can be resolved by enslaving humanoids as well as the barbarian tribesmen of the region whom aren't going to be necessarily a part of the Silver Marches. The Orcs themselves can use them for mining, building, farming, and the like. It's important to remember that Orcs aren't necessarily stupid. They're just violent and atavistic.
Uhm...I think it would take considerable military force to bring the barbarians under Obould's control, for barbarians seemed to me as free and wild people who value honor, freedom and valor and fighting as well. So, Obould is unlikely to contest Tempus's followers for slaves. Obould would do well with goblin slaves or troll slaves, as they are quite stupid to think of a rebellion and easy to control with fear and might.
quote:
2. The Zhentarim are a trading Empire first and foremost and so are the Red Wizards. Obould has shown he's intelligent enough to make deals with the frost giants, he might well be smart enough to make deals with these groups of unscrupulous humans. I point out that plenty of Zhentilar have retired in the Marches. Its entirely possible that Obould may have a thriving blackmarket link to Silverymoon soon. The Underdark might also have other trade.
Perhaps....but trading with the Zhents and Red Wizards might require portals to bypass the vigilantes in the Silver Marches. While the Zhentilar who retired in the Silver Marches, according the WotC website, the retired Zhentilar wish to start afresh and shy away from such dark activities as they do not wish to be implicated with such dark activities while seeking a new untroubled life, yes, there are some "pretending" retired Zhents among the lot but such "pretenders" are usually often killed off by their own fellows before they can do anything. The Underdark can serve as a possible source to acquire slaves especially from Skullport, but the underdark trading ways are very risky and hard to profit but still possible anyway.
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3. Orcs are mostly warriors and hunters and gatherers but its clear that some weaker males might be drafted into forming shepherding and other aspects. The Orcs furthermore have been known to be excellent smiths in some respects and certainly can husband their beasts for riding.
Yup, weaker males are usually expected to do the drudgery before they can expect to rise in the ranks. Orcs as excellent smiths? Unheard of, for usually dwarves are the best smiths and craftsmen especially in metalworking, weapon forging and architecture and few other trade skills. Orcs usually ride the wolves so can be said to be fair riders and shepherds.
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4. Orcs are fully capable of having a regimented system despite their chaotic evil ways. If Obould can set up a pyramidal pecking order then the majority of individuals will probably challenge their ways up by heirarchy then rather than simply all plotting to take his throne per say
That may take some time to ingrain such thoughts into an orc mind. I think a simple regimented system would fit the orcs given their nature where fighting prowess, incredible strength and war trophies are the main way to rise in ranks in order to gain better armor and weapons and accomodation but not necessarily buy respect. The regimental system may hold while Obould is alive, but the next few sucessors may abandon the system in favor of something else.
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5. One shouldn't underestimate Orc shamanism for magical might if Gruumsh has made a chosen.
Besides that, Gruumsh's Chosen and Gruumsh may face subtle opposition from other Orc gods such as Ilneval who is a self-serving orc god and pretends to be loyal to Gruumsh while he hates Gruumsh, Shargaas who may be a double agent in the Orc pantheon and helps Gruumsh while harboring secret plans. Hence, if Gruumsh has a Chosen among the orcs, I am certain those other orc gods would act to have their own Chosen among the orc ranks to secretly undermine and hinder Obould. So Obould can't really expect a reverent mob under his command for long.
Considering the battle wisdom shown by Obould on the battlefield. I think Obould combines logical thinking and imagination to make effective plans for his war against the dwarves. He knows some basic knowledge of the giants, dwarves and trolls to manipulate them to his own favor but it appears that there is a counter to Obould's intelligent mind whereby Bruenor(rumored to be Moradin's Chosen) displayed a similar level of intelligence and bravery in fighting the orc hordes.
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We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 10:15:22
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I largely agree with your point though I think Orcs while not dwarf level are capable of creating many clever things. I believe the orcs are hardly untalented in several areas, especially those of warcraft making.
I do think that the intrigues of the Orc Pantheon will be mostly focused on destroying the surrounding powers before they start fighting amongst themselves. Gruumsh's clan is a bunch of sleaze who would kill each other of a scrap of meat but he is nevertheless the clan that fears the Lord of them.
They'll probably wait until Obould's death (unless Gruumsh has made him immortal) and fight over the scraps. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2006 : 10:23:29
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Considering that other chosen of any deity (El, Amlaruil, the old Matron Mother Baenre) have a lifespan that is considerably longer than that of the average member of the race, we can assume that Obould will be around for a while longer...
The question to me is: when did Obould become the Chosen of Gruumsh? How old is he really? Is there any canon source saying he is NOT the Obould who conquered Adbar? (Or was it Felbar?) If he is one and the same, Gruumsh has chosen him quite a while ago and the orcs catch up only now.
Maybe, like the humans who were seen as 'savages' by the elves who came before them, orcs are moving up on the evolutionary ladder?
Or maybe we are reading way too much in Obould's 'crusade'. Is anyone in the know on what is planned for him which is not covered by a NDA? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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King Obould situation: Military Analysis thread
