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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 03:46:02
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Spoilers for the NWN Original Campaign Storyline within this thread
I have a confession to make. Until last month I had never finished the NWN OC. I have owned the game for three years, I have SOU and HOTU, and I have started all three. I have played online for hours in various PW as well as single night adventures through NeverWinterConnections, but I had never finished the OC.
That having been said, now that I have, I would like to figure out what my fellow scribes feel would have made the game better, and what would have made it more like a Forgotten Realms game. I'm not so much looking for technical answers (better resolution, better sound options, ways to better managed multi player, toolset issues), but story related issues (though things like how the henchment work are fair game).
I'm also not looking for general "the OC sucked" comments, but actual ideas that you have on what would have made the game a better story, and a better Realms story.
Part of why I am doing this is a curiosity that I have about trying to run this as a DM and altering how the plot moves forward, and how much I could push the envelope.
Part of this is just trying to figure out why it didn't end up as a stronger Realms based, or even story based, game.
And of course, part of this is a look back at the OC as the release of NWN 2 approaches.
So if you have ideas on how NWN could have been a better, stronger Realms game, post them here.
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Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 17 Apr 2006 04:08:57
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 03:58:21
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To get the ball rolling on my own idea:
The Cast of Characters
Aribeth DeTylmarande . . . okay, if you are going to introduce an elven paladin, you have to have them make sense. If you want her to be a follower of Tyr, that's fine, but I always felt like this was a bit of a copout, like the crew at Bioware wanted to make Aribeth a paladin because elves couldn't be paladins before.
I would have make Aribeth feel more awkward about being an elf that worshipps a "human" god. I would have also had her orphaned at a younger age, and actually raised by humans, to better explain the whole worshipping Tyr thing. The "God shows up and inspires the character to follow them" thing was really heavy handed, and when it showed up again in Linu's origin, it really felt weak.
Also, Aribeth being a previously unknown character, yet being Lord Nasher's right hand woman and so integral to the plot, just felt a bit like a streach. If we saw someone that she reported to besides Lord Nasher, like a High Priest of Tyr, it wouldn't have seemed so strange that she came out of the blue.
While we are discussing Aribeth, how about the love of her life, Fenthick Moss? One elven worshipper of Tyr is interesting, another one is really hard to deal with. Some fixes? Fenthick could have been a half-elf raised by his human parent. Also, just throwing two Tyr worshipping elves at us as lovers without explanation is not satisfying. Yes, two elves that worship Tyr would have something in common, but knowing how they met, and how Fenthick found Tyr, might have helped.
Why is this a problem? If you are new to the Realms, these two characters appearing, without explanation, makes you think that elves worshipping Tyr is a common occurance, and this really isn't in keeping with the background of the Realms.
So, to sum up, I would have made Aribeth a younger elf, orphaned in her childhood, and raised by humans, to explain her Tyr worship, and I would have made another level of authority between her, the field agent liason, and Lord Nasher. I would have made Fenthick Moss a half-elf raised by his human parent, who latches onto Aribeth since they both have elven blood, were raised by humans, and worship Tyr, and I would have had them at least explain when they met. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 04:08:01
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Desther . . . Hey, how can we introduce Helm in a way that reinforces that he has a corrupt and ineffectual priesthood? I like the idea that a Helmite and a Tyrran are friends, as it shows that Helm is allied to the Triad. Too bad no on mentioned what the Triad was or that Helm might be allied to it . . .
Replacings ALL of the clerics of Helm throughout Neverwinter with ringers was a feat. Destroying a major center of Helmite worship, Helm's Hold, was a hard thing to take. Making it all seem like a minor part of a much larger plan is a travesty. We needed more backstory on Desther, and how he managed to supplant the real Helmites. We should have found more Helmite prisoners (monks and clerics) that, once freed, would help retake the hold, so that you might actually get the sense that Helm's Hold might open again fairly soon, instead of turning it into a fallen ruin that at least gets scoured clean by a celestial.
Instead of the clerics of Helm all being clerics of this strange cult, and actually being clerics, why not have them be evasive about why they don't cast spells, and have them actually be dopplegangers? Discover one or two, and confront Desther about it, and have him act surprised, but make sure everyone knows that he is a cleric and can cast spells, and isn't likely to be a doppelganger.
Why didn't we ever find out WHEN Desther and Fenthick became friends, or why Fenthick trusted him? We were asked to swollow too many absolutes right off the bat . . . Aribeth loves Fenthick more than anything, Fenthick absolutely trusts Desther above all else . . . |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 17 Apr 2006 04:11:01 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 06:13:36
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Wasnt Aribeth a Half Elf?
They should have made Aribeth related to the Floshin elven family in Daggerford one of the members of the family (Elorshin) is an Sun Elf Cleric of Tyr
By the way Helmite and Tyrian dont get on well. Tyrian monks seek out and beat up on Helmite monks in ritualistic combat (Check out the Order of the Even Handed entry in City of Splendors) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 17 Apr 2006 06:18:59 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 06:18:51
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| As far as I know, she was a full blooded wood elf, but that is a good point to bring up. Hadn't even thought to look for canon Elf clerics of Tyr. That would have been a good tie in. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 07:19:54
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| An integrel part of the NWN OC was the Neverwinter Night Anthology that was cancelled and never released. NWN was delay after delay and the book never materialized because of it. I know that one such story was going to go further into Aribeth's history. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2006 : 16:52:16
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Hm . . . I remember that Hlam was, back in 1st edition, trying to defeat a Helmite monk to gain a level, but I don't know for sure that this indicates that they don't actually get along with one another. Still, its interesting that the Order ritually has to challenge Helmites. It seems that it might have more to do with an understanding between the two though.
But reading that entry reminds me of a few other simple thigns that would have been good for flavor. Referring to Neverwinter as the "City of Skilled Hands" once in a while would have been nice. Referring to waterclocks and colored glass trade goods would have been cool too.
Of course mentioning the bridges in the city would have been great as well, but I am not sure they could have pulled this off with how the tile system works in the game, without making it sound like you were praising a relatively small bridge with tons of praise. |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2006 : 01:55:59
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Well, here was my big problem....I created a LG Cleric of Helm to play through the OC. So when the story unfolds...I was like....ummm...this really blows...
In part because the scripting did not recognise my assigned deity. And in part because here was another bit of bad rap for the god of guardians. Why does he keep granting these guys spells in the first place :(
The part about the creator races got a bit too deep for me....I would have preferred something that tied in more with some novels at the time as the later two expansion campaigns attempted to do.
I agree with the comments above about Aribeth as well. I would not have made her elven or even half-elven. Somehow in my mind elves would not be as easily corrupted and turned to the path of a Blackguard as she was... |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2006 : 04:16:49
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I'm not sure Helm was granting the impostors spells, but then again, I'm not sure who was. They seemed to indicate that the yuan-ti you were chasing worshiped Mershaulk, even though Sseth "replaced" Mershaulk eventually. Were the cultists getting their powers from Sseth? (or Set as the case may be)
I didn't want to jump on the creator races issue too hard since Serpent Kingdoms hadn't come out yet at that point, and they may not have had any other ideas concerning the Saruhk, and first edition Lord of Darkness definately implied that the reptilian creator race was more lizard folkish than yuan-ti-ish . . .
But yes, overall this was another black eye for Helm's church, and I don't think that Helm's Hold would have been completely wiped out. It seemed to be destruction for destructions sake, i.e. in order to make the story seem more important, lets destroy a fairly major landmark.
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2006 : 07:54:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
By the way Helmite and Tyrian dont get on well. Tyrian monks seek out and beat up on Helmite monks in ritualistic combat (Check out the Order of the Even Handed entry in City of Splendors)
Interesting, I could see monks of Tempus wanting to do so (e.g. a unarmed warlike martial philosophy pitted against one based on vigilance and protection) , but why monks of Tyr, are they beating up on them for the sake of Justice (based on past events)? |
Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2006 : 08:19:06
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I'm going to have to disagree about the elves worshipping human deities because Ed has told me that many of the different races worship outside of thier pantheons, if it makes sense to do so. Pantheon's aren't really restricted to "one" race.
And of course, that reply is in the 2004 files and it's dated May 20th.
Otherwise, I've never finished those games even though I bought the boxed set that has all of them, so I'm not much help. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 25 May 2006 08:25:08 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2006 : 13:15:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I'm going to have to disagree about the elves worshipping human deities because Ed has told me that many of the different races worship outside of thier pantheons, if it makes sense to do so. Pantheon's aren't really restricted to "one" race.
And of course, that reply is in the 2004 files and it's dated May 20th.
Indeed.
And as we've seen in some of the lore in 1e/2e/3e FR... most races have groups that have, on occasion, worshipped deities outside their more traditional racial pantheons.
Demihuman Deities notes several examples of humans worshipping dwarven deities and dwarves worshipping gnomish and elven deities for example.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 25 May 2006 13:22:57 |
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How Could NWN OC Have Been More Realmsian?
