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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Mar 2006 : 22:41:12
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Yeah, I find that some of the stories that "break the mold" are unsatisfying though.
1. Liriel Baenre for example ends up pretty much utterly deprived of everything at the end of her adventures. SPOILER She's lost her lover, she's banished from her people, she's on her goddess' shavit list, and she's got not a friend in the world.END SPOILER It really seems that she did all of her adventures for nothing.
2. Waterdeep's recent novel with Elaine and Ed also had a ending that I didn't care SPOILER The only likeable protagionist ends up dead while the character I personally wanted to see horribly killed ends up with everything because of his *finger wag* redemption. END SPOILER I also mentioned that I found the heroes to be a bit TOO average Joe. Their problems read somewhat like watching an episode of my niece's soap Passions. I don't really want to know about seamtresses wanting to wed nobles when I read the Realms.
3. Spine of the World also portrays the trials and tribulations of a character that has been utterly drained of anything likeable.
quote:
That doesn't mean the Drizzt and Elminster stories don't have their place, or that the torch needs to be passed... it's just that there's plenty of room for more stories.
I think that a certain amount of dialing up the music so to speak is necessary for heroes like this. You're right in that Elminster's stories are best told in flashback but I think Drizzt really needs to increase the scope of his adventures.
We've seen him reach a comfortable place in life, now we need to disrupt that or have him fight for something bigger if we want to see him change. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 28 Mar 2006 22:43:29 |
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GungHo
Seeker
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2006 : 22:54:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
1. Liriel Baenre for example ends up pretty much utterly deprived of everything at the end of her adventures.
I disagree. She gained experience... and in the end she learned that there times when a case of optical rectitus can cost you everything you hold dear and that you can't fix everything. And she learned it the hard way.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I think that a certain amount of dialing up the music so to speak is necessary for heroes like this. You're right in that Elminster's stories are best told in flashback but I think Drizzt really needs to increase the scope of his adventures.
I'm not sure I understand this reply. This wasn't what I was saying. If you're expanding on your own feelings, that's ok. Just a little confused! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2006 : 23:00:10
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What were you meaning then with this?
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There's sometimes something lost in the journey when showing established people. There doesn't seem to be as much real learning. I know it was tried with Elminster and with Drizzt, but the problem with using Elminster and Drizzt, frankly, is that everyone knows who they're going to be. They were never really presented as nobodies. The were both always High Fliers with Great Destinies. Not saying that the new generation of hero has to come out of the woodwork, just that it'd be nice if he did it with a little help from his friends... who don't happen to be deities or the son of Hulk Hogan.
?
My own opinion is that Elminster's stories are best told in flashback because he's at the end of his career not the beginning but I think Drizzt could well be only in the middle part of his heroic journey. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 05:44:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
What were you meaning then with this?
quote:
There's sometimes something lost in the journey when showing established people. There doesn't seem to be as much real learning. I know it was tried with Elminster and with Drizzt, but the problem with using Elminster and Drizzt, frankly, is that everyone knows who they're going to be. They were never really presented as nobodies. The were both always High Fliers with Great Destinies. Not saying that the new generation of hero has to come out of the woodwork, just that it'd be nice if he did it with a little help from his friends... who don't happen to be deities or the son of Hulk Hogan.
?
My own opinion is that Elminster's stories are best told in flashback because he's at the end of his career not the beginning but I think Drizzt could well be only in the middle part of his heroic journey.
AAHH I have faith that the old mage has a few years left in him yet. I do however like his flash backs to the good old days. As far as Drizzt, I would consider him at the beginning of his career not the middle. Anything else would leave him with a few hundred years or so with nothing to do  |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 05:56:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Charles, to underline the entire 'news travels slow if at all' topic, consider this:
Ever walked 10 miles? Loaded with a pack? I only did a 10km march with the army and I was damn tired of walking after 6km, at 10 I just wanted to go back and soak my feet. I've (thankfully) never ridden a horse for 24miles (as the PHB states for regular horse travel if I am not mistaken), even if you argued that this was no hardship on a trained rider, I can imagine that at the end of a day you're just as happy to not sit on a horse again for several months.
And before you say that these are hardened men consider this: ever been on a trans-atlantic flight? If not try it. All of us who spend their time sitting at their computers are trained 'sitters', yet I doubt that anyone will go bouncing down the ganway to their luggage after 8+ hours of sitting.
So in short, most people back in the day did not travel much, and if they did it wasn't far. If you look into European history you'll see that only with the advent of the industrial revolution things and people really started to move. Please add 1 and 1...
I've actually done quite a bit of travelling in my time and I'm hardly going to argue that travel is slow in the Forgotten Realms for most of the time. It's also not like Eberron where you can expect there to be the magical equivalent of telegrams.
I do note though that communities don't live in a vacuum in the Middle Ages though (I'm in Graduate school for Medieval history) and never did. Yes, the information was extremely old but in England everyone was interested what was going on in the Crusades and those who wanted accurate informaton could get it. Everyone town was visited by travellers and plenty of nobles had history of pilgrimages or visits to other nations. Not to mention many clergyman.
Was it a travelling time? No, however many people never leave their hometowns in our time as well.
There's good reasons for players adventures to become immortalized. The death of a Dragon is an issue where the players are suddenly very rich or perhaps someone else might become very rich (if they didn't loot it), land suddenly opening up that was previously uninhabitable or unpassable, the dangers or benefits of a sudden powerful armed group of men wandering through the area, and also make very good stories.
During the Crusades, individuals could become like superheroes famous Europe over for far less deeds than we have in Faerun.
Hammerhand army standard (US) is 20k "air assault" and charles, no offense but I saw a picture of you and you don't seem to have many winters in you yet, to have traveled quite a bit  no offense, I am only trying to be funny. However I do agree that travel in the sense of FR would be rare to go all that far in a lifetime ( for the common folk). Thank god for adventurers or we would all only be familiar with Cormyr and such. I can truly see the point of having many "local heroes" these guys would be the village warrior, maybe seeing a war or 2 in their time. I retired purple dragon knight. The mage who lives on the hill who is kind of weird, but there for you when the orcs come down out of the mountains in the winter. etc, etc. |
Edited by - scererar on 29 Mar 2006 06:16:39 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 07:05:56
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I'm 25 btw.
The picture is rather old.
:-)
But yes, I largely agree with you. I just think that news is important and Bards will be a major point of sharing information. What do bards share most? Heroes!
Or maybe Wheel of Time has corrupted me?
(stopped after 3rd book and nothing happened) |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 29 Mar 2006 07:07:34 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 07:14:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
I largely agree with you. I just think that news is important and Bards will be a major point of sharing information. What do bards share most? Heroes!
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 10:16:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
But yes, I largely agree with you. I just think that news is important and Bards will be a major point of sharing information. What do bards share most? Heroes!
They share heroes??? Nasty  |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 12:22:56
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| You may want to consider how you phrase your sentences, and what you imply with any of them... I kinda get tired discussing stuff with you, Charles. As you can see most people who are interested in the topic be it heroes or villains have stopped replying... as of now I refuse to discuss issues with you... I am tired of this nonsense. When you have learned to hold a decent conversation I may return to talking with you...until then, good luck |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 14:40:10
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Once again... I'm reminding my fellow scribes here to keep this discussion civil. I've enjoyed reading most of what has been talked about so far... but I'm growing weary of this current phase  .
If it happens again... I'll be forced to seal this scroll. Consider this the final warning.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 29 Mar 2006 14:44:48 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 17:50:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Once again... I'm reminding my fellow scribes here to keep this discussion civil. I've enjoyed reading most of what has been talked about so far... but I'm growing weary of this current phase .
If it happens again... I'll be forced to seal this scroll. Consider this the final warning.
Especially the last two comments. Sigh, I'm so sick and tired of people bashing Ed about his sex/sensual/sexuality scenes, etc. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 29 Mar 2006 18:33:57 |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 19:31:37
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I agree very strongly.
Charles, how do you think Ed is going to feel, if THO forwards him this thread?
I mean in particular this passage:
“that's pretty much the essence of Greenwood writing...”
Leaving out all the gaming stuff and just counting novels and short stories, the guy has written sf, horror, Arthurian fantasy, modern-setting humour, lots of fantasy that doesn’t have any sex or even innuendo in it at all, philosophy, romance (that, again, doesn’t have any sex or even innuendo in it at all), war stories, and historical short stories. And probably more stuff that I’ve missed.
I don’t happen to like all of those genres, yet I’ve enjoyed Ed’s writings in them when I’ve come across them, because the guy is a good storyteller.
I can’t believe a writer like yourself can honestly think he understands “the essence of Greenwood writing” from just reading the Realms. And I can’t think you’ve read most of the other stuff Ed’s done - like award-winning teen horror short stories - if you can make that comment.
I also think way too many people, when commenting on every Realms writer, forget that FR writing is work for hire and that the author they are discussing may include story elements, and adopt writing styles, specifically by editorial direction.
Ed has many writing styles when writing outside the Realms, and he’s spoken before about being asked to “sex things up” by TSR editors (with those same editors sitting in the same GenCon panels right beside him, agreeing with him).
Charles, I think you do the man a great disservice.
Perhaps you were joking, but taking your other comments on this thread, I don’t think so. If I’ve misread you, I apologize.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 19:37:02
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It was a joke actually and I've seen similiar comments about him quite often taken in good fun. While often there are comments about the nature of Greenwood writing have been made I'm quite aware the prolific nature of the man's writing is Asimovian and I consider him a giant of the RPGing industry. His imagination and the wealth of his fantastic writing is quite overwhelming. Frankly, in every respect that matters, the man created Dungeons and Dragons as much as its Creator. I thought the nature of my comments would be hardly taken in an insulting manner.
I was making alittle risque joke I admit but I like to think its a healthy attitude towards sex.
But clearly I've worn down my welcome a bit so I'll let anyone else have their bit. Perhaps I'll be better appreciated in small doses. I believe part of Mace's objections seem to be I post too damn much.
My apologies again Mace if I've offended you on some level. It was never my intention. Nor would I ever indicate that Ed's writings are merely burlesque when they are amazingly deep storytelling wise and provided me years of fun. The Seven Sisters and Elminster remain my favorite characters with their promiscuity as well as other attributes. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 29 Mar 2006 20:10:01 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 19:53:29
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I’m not going to echo Blueblade’s comments, because he said it well enough. Darn right, BB. Sorry, Charles, I misread it the same way until I read your reply.
Instead, Charles, I want to respond to your comments about the ending of CITY OF SPLENDORS (which I won’t get specific about because you quite rightly “spoiler hid” them).
You didn’t like that ending, you said, because the heroes didn’t get all the rewards, but some of the villains (or at least the undeserving) did.
I think that was the whole point: that Ed and Elaine were able for the first time to shrug out of the old TSR Code straitjacket to say: “Yep, sometimes evil DOES win. Or heroes don’t triumph in a swift, neat fashion because we’re at the end of our pagecount.”
Are you really just looking for “good guys win!” books in Realms novels? I ask because that’s the very same thing a lot of longtime Realms readers have been complaining about, all these years. :}
love,
THO
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GungHo
Seeker
USA
68 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 20:03:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
What were you meaning then with this?
quote:
There's sometimes something lost in the journey when showing established people. There doesn't seem to be as much real learning. I know it was tried with Elminster and with Drizzt, but the problem with using Elminster and Drizzt, frankly, is that everyone knows who they're going to be. They were never really presented as nobodies. The were both always High Fliers with Great Destinies. Not saying that the new generation of hero has to come out of the woodwork, just that it'd be nice if he did it with a little help from his friends... who don't happen to be deities or the son of Hulk Hogan.
?
My own opinion is that Elminster's stories are best told in flashback because he's at the end of his career not the beginning but I think Drizzt could well be only in the middle part of his heroic journey.
What I meant was that I think that when they're doing flashbacks of people who we already know, it's sometimes difficult to see the journey of "little guy" to "big guy" because they're already so well known as "big guys." It's nice to see what they learned to be a "big guy," but it's often presented as "you're learning this, and this is what is going to make you a big guy in a hundred years because you're special, and we like you, and our mommas like you."
For example, every time we see Elminster throughout the Elminster series (Making of a Mage, etc.), we know damn good and well that he's Elminster and that he's not going to lose that much and that he's ultimately going to be the mage we all know and love. You can throw adversity in front of him, but, we know it's Elminster and he's going to Learn From This Experience (capitalized on purpose). When we saw Drizzt in his prequel novels, we know that Drizzt is going to be the introspective, two-sworded, evil beater-upper, and that's kinda what he did after a couple of chapters. There were a few "ah, that explains that" moments, but there were a lot of "he's extra-special" anvils dropped too.
Note that I don't really blame the authors (Greenwood and Salvatore, in this case) for that kind of thing. If anyone gets blame, it's probably the marketing folks, who I imagine say, "I'm reading your draft, but this character's yammering too much... When's he going to whip it out and show me he's supposed to be Elminster/Drizzt?"
It would be nice to see a nobody, or a group of nobodies, become somebodies... without too much fore-knowledge that they're going to be somebodies and without a whole bunch of "And Now For a Very Special Episode of Family Ties" chapters where their growth is being beaten into our skulls. It'd also be nice to see them rise up without being friends of a deity or friends of some Very Special Person. If they're going to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, then have them do that, with no more handwaving than sheer determination or sheer luck. I don't want to know if the guy is going to become an Elminster or a Drizzt. I want to see him earn being an "icon."
However, I'm not sure how marketable my tastes are... because, no one else may really want to buy a book about some Yo who no one's ever heard of and where no one's really sure where it's going to end up. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 03:19:19
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OOC: To cut down on excessive posting, which seems to be irritating my sage elder Mace here. I'm going to try and only post once or twice a day in these threads.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
I’m not going to echo Blueblade’s comments, because he said it well enough. Darn right, BB. Sorry, Charles, I misread it the same way until I read your reply.
Given the unnecessary and largely unjustified flack that Ed Greenwood's writings have gotten, I admit that it was a rather tactless comment and I frankly hope I can live it down. Ed has made no secret that he enjoys pointing out the differences between morality in our world and Forgotten Realms and certainly there's nothing wrong with the active lives the heroes all live. Plus, the idea that the 'sexy' scenes overshadow the plotline or are even especially large as opposed to other fantasy writers is quite ludicrous.
Again, I'm quite contrite.
quote:
Instead, Charles, I want to respond to your comments about the ending of CITY OF SPLENDORS (which I won’t get specific about because you quite rightly “spoiler hid” them). You didn’t like that ending, you said, because the heroes didn’t get all the rewards, but some of the villains (or at least the undeserving) did.
It's a long and hard earned habit to make sure not to spoil things.
And yes, that was the gist of my statement. Ironically, City of Splendours is definitely a book that fits my earlier requested criteria of expanding on places of the Realms and gave the day-to-day life of Waterdeep quite well....so it just goes to show I don't always know what I'm talking about. I did enjoy the book, just I'll think I'll enjoy Blackstaff more.
quote:
I think that was the whole point: that Ed and Elaine were able for the first time to shrug out of the old TSR Code straitjacket to say: “Yep, sometimes evil DOES win. Or heroes don’t triumph in a swift, neat fashion because we’re at the end of our pagecount.”
Entirely possible I admit.
quote:
Are you really just looking for “good guys win!” books in Realms novels? I ask because that’s the very same thing a lot of longtime Realms readers have been complaining about, all these years. :}
Well I suppose the best way to phrase what I'm looking for as a reader is a "emotionally satisfying conclusion." In real life, you could follow the buildup of someone's life quite fascinatingly then suddenly cut it off with a car wreck but that doesn't necessarily make for reading that I personally want to enjoy. I'm not going to claim the 'escapism defense' (I think we've all heard it before) but I do think that its fairly a rule of storytelling that the readers emotions should be happy with the results.
Now, this usually means I would like evil to be vanquished in the stories and good triumphant since I like my evil repulsive and villainous. At the end of the Moonshaes trilogy, seeing Bhaal utterly broken was a enjoyable ending. Ditto Cyric driven from the Fugue Plane by Kelemvor's revolt at the end of Prince of Lies and finally Elminster opening up Myth Drannor or avenging his parent's death in Athalantar.
But I admit I'm also the first one to want a Manshoon and Fzoul book with both stories ending up with them triumphant. I would personally like a book about Semmenon and his consort messing over the Zhents because those evil doers have become like old friends in my campaigns.
In what I *think* Mace was arguing in the villains thread (I've been mulling over his statements before responding), villains can have many positive qualities while being throughly irredeemable words that start with B and end with ards. This makes their victories not at all unpleasant to read about. We can admire Manshoon for his etiquette, intelligence, and power of will while probably seeing Fzoul as an honorable (in his own fashion) if power hungry warlord. Thus seeing Manshoon triumph over Joe Paladin or opponents less intelligent than him is much the same as Darth Vader defeating Luke in ESB...its kind of awesome to watch.
It's why I didn't much care for the endings to City of Splendour and the Shandril saga. Without giving away anything, I felt the emotionally dynamic Shandril and Narn with all their struggles ended up cheated for all their efforts. While in CoS, I felt that character of lesser stature was touted over the rest with us being expected to be happy for him rather than alittle disgusted.
I hope I'm being clear here, its hard to catch the nuances of what I want to say.
Plus, while I don't want villains to role over like a row of dominoes (I never had a problem with Shandril's early victories---I thought there was deliberate humor that a 16 year old girl was destroying ancient warlords of immense power)....I think the Lord of the Rings would be a lesser story if Sauron won.
quote:
Originally posted by GungHo
However, I'm not sure how marketable my tastes are... because, no one else may really want to buy a book about some Yo who no one's ever heard of and where no one's really sure where it's going to end up.
Well even Drizzt started out as a nobody. There's certainly room I think for new heroes in Forgotten Realms honestly and Richard was right that many authors don't respond well to the notion that characters should be "shared property" (I can imagine how I'd feel if someone drastically changed or killed mine).
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 30 Mar 2006 03:21:24 |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 08:39:44
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Charles, your permenent postings are not what irritate me. What irritates me is a very different animal, and probably one you don't even know:
Let me try to explain it to you, slowly. In the villains thread we, normal members and authors, had a very interesting and enjoyful discussion. Along came you with your lectures, yes it was lecturing. Arrogant lecturing. You zealously refused to acknowledge what had been going on, which was basically creative people tossing ideas back and forth. At first the authors and others (most notably Winterfox and me) tried, and failed, to argue with you.
You were adamant, ignorantly so, about your point of view and failed to realize that we were just having a ball talking about what makes a villain tick basically. There was enough self-possessed ignorance in your words to make most of those who had discussed the topic in a friendly way leave. Had we been in an actual room the people would have trailed out, leaving you to a monologue.
What really peed me off was you claiming to be a professional author. I don't know Erik, Richard, Paul or any of the others personally, I only know Margaret, Jean, Jeff, Troy and a few others. Let me tell you one thing: none of these people have the delusions of grandeur and righteouness that you show. Hell, even Peter Adkinson is a 'normal' guy. Your books, which are distributed by a PoD publisher, do not make you a professional author. A professional author is not only making a living off his writing, he is, from my personal experience, also a quite modest, regular, intelligent, creative and most of all FUN person to hang out with. You are none of these things.
Do you make a living writing? I doubt it. So you are no professional author, just a hypocrite. An arrogant hypocrite on top of it. If you had any sense of modesty to yourself, or any sense at all rather, you wouldn't flout your own published on DEMAND works with such fervor. Sure you found a publisher, that is great, I haven't. I have published various short stories, poems, co-written a book on roleplaying games, translated DragonLance short stories, and also worked on the German edition of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting. Most of the stuff was in fanzines, but people read it, even after eight years of absense the people who read the fanzine remember me, and not only by me being roaringly drunk on countless occasions.
I wish I could call myself a professional author (although I sure as hell never would!), it beats being unemployed any time.
Even had my first novel, which is still in the rewriting process, been published, and not by some dubious PoD publisher, would I run around claiming to be a 'professional' author? That would not be very professional.
The villains thread was intended for idea sharing and discussion, you didn't share, you flooded. Inanely. Your religious background doesn't have anything to do with the discussion, neither has it anything to do with the idea-tossing and philosophizing that went on. Good and evil, franly...who cares? It is the bleeding story that counts, not your personal views. If a story is good with a hero as protagonist, but better with a villain as protagonist, so friggin' be it.
That aside, your use of terms is somewhat...uh... silly? There can be good guy antagonists, since antagonist and protagonist are NOT synomynous with hero and villain.
I have no gripe with anyone who knows what he is talking about, I may not share the view, but I can respect it. You misspell character names you claim you care so much about, you read attitudes into characters that aren't even there. You list the books you have read, like a little child comparing toys to his peers.
Your peers don't give a damn about your toys, we think about what to play with the toys and buying new toys, maybe together. While we played and planned you shouted about how great your toys were. Had you made any suggestion whatsoever on how and what to play without forcing your point of view on us (I could make a wild guess what church you go to and probably be right) the discussion might still go on full throttle, instead it boiled down to us trying (and failing) to point your errors out.
If you were that creative you'd stop, at any random point, and wonder what could be improved. Not only in Realms Fiction but in fiction in general. Why live with a forced status quo all the time?
Maybe you should take an extended sabbatical, reconsider your approach to things, and...well, grow up.
Mace *I again slept too little and worry about things that should not concern me and do it like the other authors and ignore Chucky, but unfortunately I can't hold back when I am angry* Hammerhand |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 09:08:15
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Mace, my odd reaction to your comment is that you frankly are far too deeply affected by the writings of someone on an internet board. I'm surprised and saddened that I've had such a strongly negative effect on you.
Also, my apologies if you think I wasn't listening to what you or anyone else had to say because in that respect you're just simply wrong. I very much read what you had to say and simply wasn't persuaded. I actually believe you had incredibly good points, have enjoyed reading your posts tremendously, and frankly looked forward to your responses to my posts the most.
Finally, I'm very sorry if you feel I ruined the chummy atmosphere of the thread you were participating in. I had no idea I was disturbing it and I am sorry that you lost your fun from that particular thread.
I'd like to clarify my books are not published on demand. I've certainly never been of that mind there. I recognize though that compared to some of the luminaries on these boards though that I have absolutely no stake whatsoever. It's an immense treat when sucessful writers like any of Forgotten Realm's authors come on the boards here to share their opinions. I hope only to be able to reach the kind of ability let alone success folk like Elaine Cunningham possess. They were an inspiration to me and all.
I'm if I come off as arrogant and frankly I wish you nothing but luck Mace Hammerhand in publishing your works. Your posts mark you as an intelligent individual with remarkable ability to craft your ideas. If I worked with a publisher you respected, I'm sure I'd recommend anything you created. Please inform me if you ever make an open license supplement (or even better, licensed work) so that I can pick it up. Your novel I hope you could PM me the details. I'd love to know what its about and will definitely buy it when it comes out. I'll even write a review here if you like.
(No sarcasm, honest truth)
Also, at present I've devoted myself fully to writing for the year to see if I can make a living off of it. You're right that I've no doubt sounded arrogant and my happiness has probably made me bring up my situation more than is professionally appropriate. I shan't mention it again. Certainly, plenty of other people have far more reason to brag than I.
*deep, deep, Japanese style bow*
I also listed the books I've read because I wanted to clarify my familiarity with FR. There seemed to be some confusion about how much of the work I'd read. I'm sorry for not spellchecking the works honestly and won't make any of the mistakes like that again. You're an immense help to my work here.
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If you were that creative you'd stop, at any random point, and wonder what could be improved. Not only in Realms Fiction but in fiction in general. Why live with a forced status quo all the time?
My main concern is not losing what works in fiction actually. Change is certainly to be explored but I certainly have a respect for classic and well tested. You're welcome to disagree.
To Mods: please don't close the thread. I do ask though Mace carries any problems he may have with me to private message though, I hope though that we can work out any ill will between us and be friends because I very much consider his work part of the reason I stay. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 30 Mar 2006 09:17:47 |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 09:28:02
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To get back on topic though....
And hopefully a very intellectually stimulating discourse that I believe we were having (I do kindly hope that not everyone feels the way Mace does. If so, I've made a terrible Dunderhead of myself and embarrassed everyone here with my crude behavior as well as crass manners).
Honestly, if I had a type of hero that I'd like to see more of it'd probably be more intellectual characters in Forgotten Realms. Cadderly was the last real 'mind' I think that the Realms saw and strangely Danillo Thann I think is probably the next smartest with Drizzt a close third. Sadly, I don't think Cadderly has much in the way of future behind him adventuring wise because he's passed the point until he's become practically omnipotent. There's plenty of omnipotent level stories that can be told, just look at Superman stories and also the Sandman series by Neil Gaiman.
What sort of character qualities would you like to see in future Realmsian characters? |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 10:43:24
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Well met
Mace, Charles, please take any further personal discussions to PM\Email. As the Sage stated, there have been some very interesting discussions within this scroll and it would be a shame to lock it down.
Thank ye all for the comments, and apologies for any distruption.
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Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 10:57:45
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Done and done, Alaundo.
As for heroes... I would love to see 'effective' heroes. People who do what is necessary even if it means to tread over corpses. Heroes with a dark side, so to speak. We have enough superheroes, how about the already often mentioned Mulhorandi paladin with his slaves, his alignment would probably be LN in game terms. I would love to see him sacrifice anyone if it means his mission is successful. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 13:58:04
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I would love to see a novel about a Paladin as the protagonist. Paladins are usually portrayed in a negative sense (see Thornhold) or not portrayed at all.
Dragonbait was an exception but he's really not a major character seeing as to how he can't even speak.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but most novel heroes end up being CG once they are statted out. I know their game stats/alignment are irrelevant but I think it most cases it's a pretty accurate portrayal of how they are written. I would love to see Lawful Good portrayed in a positive, intelligent fashion. Maybe it would help roleplayers figure out that not all Paladins are lawful stupid.
-EDIT: Spelling Error |
Edited by - Chosen of Bane on 30 Mar 2006 17:51:30 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 17:21:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
Dragonbait was an exception but he's really not a major character seeing as to how he can't even speak.
I'll disagree with this statement on multiple counts. Dragonbait could speak; just not in a way he could be understood by humans. And being able to speak does not determine whether or not someone is a major character... Lastly, even though he didn't say a lot to his companions, he was still a major character.
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
Maybe it would help roleplayers figure out that not all Paladins are lawful stupid.
This I will agree with... Too many people play LG as a stereotype, instead of really paying attention to what it means. I'm not one of those who thinks D&D's alignment system is broken, but I do think it still needs further clarification -- because there are people who just don't get it. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 17:38:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
Dragonbait was an exception but he's really not a major character seeing as to how he can't even speak.
I'll disagree with this statement on multiple counts. Dragonbait could speak; just not in a way he could be understood by humans. And being able to speak does not determine whether or not someone is a major character... Lastly, even though he didn't say a lot to his companions, he was still a major character.
As would I. I don't see what the ability to not speak or to speak has anything to do with it. And he could speak, but they just have a different language. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 17:49:06
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Wooly and Kuje, I'm not really disagreeing with you about Dragonbait, perhaps I should have chosen my words better.
I know he is definitely a major character because he is essential to the story. By saying he was not a major character I simply meant that he was not the main character. His point of view chapters were very limited (if any). I see it more as the Alias story, and he is secondary.
I also know that he can speak his own language with scents. But I think the "language" barrier kind of eliminated a lot of the screen time/dialogue that he could potentially have had. It's hard to get a good feel for a person without being able to hear what they have to say.
Once again, I am a big fan of the Finder's Stone Trilogy and wasn't trying to insult poor Dragonbait or the novel in any way. I am just suggesting that it's really not a story about a Paladin. Because of his language and allegiance to Alias he couldn't really impose his will and make decisions. Instead he was more of a support character, which is fine, but I would love to see a novel about a Paladin, not with a Paladin.
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Edited by - Chosen of Bane on 30 Mar 2006 18:02:09 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 01:13:48
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| Charles says the heroes in FR fiction tend not to be intelligent, and Mace says that by and large, they're too chivalrous to fight dirty even when the stakes are high. (At least, I think that's what you guys were saying. Please set me straight if I misinterpreted.) I'd be very interested to hear whether other readers agree or disagree with these assessments. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 01:33:09
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Given me and Mace have hashed out our differences to some extent (at least to discussing I think), I'll happily share my opinion on his bit before moving onto mine.
For me, I think that there's actually very few "chivalrous" heroes in canon honestly. Cadderly is probably the only one who really is a Lawful Goody too shoes while most other heroes are dirty fighting Harpers. Arilyn Moonblade is an ASSASSIN for Elfs sake.
But in my mind, its a strange bit that we don't see too many intellectuals amongst the heroes. The closest we come I mentioned with Drizzt, Danillo, and Cad (we don't see Elminster and Khel thinking too many 'deep thoughts') while Evil Villains have only a few thinkers themselves.
Pharaun, Gromph, and Jarlaxle Baenre weirdly seem to be the only ones and that's under general "plotting." Characters like Manshoon are supposed to be geniuses but their power overshadows this. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 31 Mar 2006 01:36:03 |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 02:26:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Cadderly is probably the only one who really is a Lawful Goody too shoes while most other heroes are dirty fighting Harpers.
Apart from the bit where he torches a whole pile of people without batting an eyelash, and burns a brand into his ex-friend's forehead? I'm hard pressed to find a character that's better at being a self-righteous, hypocritical imbecile than Cadderly.
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Arilyn Moonblade is an ASSASSIN for Elfs sake.
You forget the bit where the "assassin" thing is a "nickname" born on the basis that people who've crossed blades with her are all dead, not on the basis that she sneak-attacks and poisons people. Even during her tenure as a guild assassin in Zazesspur, she chooses not-so-innocent targets.
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But in my mind, its a strange bit that we don't see too many intellectuals amongst the heroes.
Why is it strange to you? You said yourself that FR doesn't leave much room for politically savvy intellectuals (an impression that's not correct, anyway), remember?
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The closest we come I mentioned with Drizzt, Danillo, and Cad (we don't see Elminster and Khel thinking too many 'deep thoughts') while Evil Villains have only a few thinkers themselves.
Oh, dear. You consider Drizzt an "intellectual"?
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Charles says the heroes in FR fiction tend not to be intelligent, and Mace says that by and large, they're too chivalrous to fight dirty even when the stakes are high. (At least, I think that's what you guys were saying. Please set me straight if I misinterpreted.) I'd be very interested to hear whether other readers agree or disagree with these assessments.
I don't entirely agree. Chivalrous heroes? The most that come to mind are Jherek from Threat from the Sea (who's a shining example of Lawful Stupid) and Drizzt (Chaotic Wangsty, but the stupidity is squeezed in there anyway). But on the intelligent front? Definitely. And it's not just FR, but fantasy in general. Most authors are more enamoured with the ability to master swordplay and magic in a week than the ability to outthink an opponent. Phèdre nó Delaunay and Mara of the Acoma appeal to me so much because they're damn well near unique. Most fantasy characters, and protagonists in particular, survive by sheer luck or being chosen by some divine entity or having an ultra-special-sparkly lineage, all of which I find to be lazy writing. Not to mention that many writers mistake being nice, honest and humble for being interesting and sympathetic.
Then there's the fact that it's so much easier to show someone being good in a fight by churning out battle scenes two thousand words long (certain parts of the Cleric Quintet and Drizzt novels, anybody?). It's harder to portray intelligence convincingly; prodigies and geniuses are almost impossible unless the author is familiar with those in real life (or is one herself). And there are many, many times where a character solves a riddle or unravels a scheme the author keeps telling me is oh-so-complex, and I go, "Uh, that's it?" because it's so obvious and about as mentally stimulating as assembling Lego pieces. It becomes easy to tell, too, when the writer's not so well-versed in the field her character's supposed to be a wiz at, so the writer comes off as rather moronic. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 02:33:48
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FYI Winterfox, I've since conceded on Forgotten Realms being not very political. You guys are most persuasive.
I also think while Cadderyl became extraordinarily wrapped up in his own righteousness and I much preferred the less confident Cadderly, I don't think he was hypocritical nor was his branding his former friend unjustified. Frankly, the man's behavior warranted much worse than excommunication.
On the Drizzt end, Drizzt spends most of his time philosophizing on human nature. While I don't think for a second that his observations are particularly deep, I also recognize there's not a Aristotilian tradition on FR. |
My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Edited by - Charles Phipps on 31 Mar 2006 02:37:56 |
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Heroes in Novels
Topic Locked
