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Torkael
Acolyte
39 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 16:58:48
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A half-elven bard decides to experiment with different music styles to gain himself some popularity. After two realtime hours of roleplaying and some miraculous dice rolling, we hear a different version of 'Hotel California', renamed 'Tavern Caringforya' sung to the tune of a 'modified lute'.
Is creating music styles/genres out of thin air logically possible?
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"No, I will not create a song dedicated to dancing dwarves. Especially dwarves worshipping Eilistraee." - Tenasa the bard |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2006 : 01:05:47
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I would think so. In fact, like Beethoven or Handel... many bards across the Realms likely improvise a great deal during their public performances. These improvisations may even lead to new styles or pieces of music practiced using instruments or musical generation methods not specifically considered to be appropriate for the style. Spontaneity would be crucial here I think... a style that grabs the bard's attention so much that he or she immediately transforms his/her practice to conform to the style playing in his/her mind.
As a musician myself, I can appreciate this fact... especially when playing in front of a live audience. Patrons aren't always interested in the same and usual musical styles... I've noticed this a lot. They usually come to hear something, maybe just a little different to what they were expecting... or a style they've not encountered before. It's these musical surprises that make public musical performances, as a bard would perform in some low-light tavern in any locale throughout the Realms, a real hoot for the bard/musician and the audience as a whole. They share something special... a feeling like, this music was meant only for them alone and for that moment. You'll never experience it the same way again. It's an important element in musical performances and in bardic roleplaying, as I've come to see.
It would only take the bard a fraction of a second to follow up from a possible deviation in a regular piece of music. To continue with the Beethoven example, during public court performances, he would often have several pieces of parchment in front of him while at the piano with the piece he was to play in notation form. But he'd also have writing implements with him so that he could constantly change and alter scales, tones etc during his playing because he discovered new ways in which to practice the music "while it is being played". Often, at the end of each performance... the original pieces of music he'd noted on parchment before his performance did not match what he ended up with at the end of the day. So many new additions and/or ideas had been added that most musical scholars today have a difficult time discerning exactly what they mean.
I can see this happening in the Realms, during a bardic performance. Spontaneity and the mastery of music that the individual bard commands are factors which must be taken into account though, before something like this is even attempted. Afterall, not every crowd is happy to hear improvisations or variations... and I've had crowds literally "boo" me of stage because I chose to deviate, even a little, from standard notation.
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Edited by - The Sage on 23 Mar 2006 01:08:12 |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2006 : 02:25:09
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As Sage mentions, they likely have a repetoire of music that they can deviate from to create a "new" song. They also likely have already come up with a lot of lyrical rhyming schemes that allow them to smoothly and quickly "improvise" lyrics.
Sage gave us lofty examples of Beethoven and Handel, but if one looks at free-style rappers that compete in improvisational rapping contests, one will find that many of their lyrics are stuff they've already come up with that they know can be easily modified by changing words or inserting names. This is important because it means they can make these alterations with little thought and while singing these they can be thinking a few stanzas ahead.
However, neither of us have addressed creating new styles or genres of music. Instead we have been merely discussing the pre-existing musical and lyrical repetoire a given bard has at their disposal and how facile they may be at improvising on these. Discovering a completely new style or genre would be rather rare.
It definitely is logically possible, being that it has happened repeatedly. Sometimes as a result of a lifetime of musical work veering in a specific direction and sometimes it may be something that simply moves a person in a single moment. In modern life there have been several completely new musical styles that have come and gone, very few of them are the result of a single person. Most of them come as a result of several musicians working together, feeding off each other's creativity, and pushing the music into completely new directions.
Sometimes a single musician is credited with this, such as Robert Johnson and the delta blues, but if one digs deeply one realizes that his work was simply superlative, but done in an environment of many musicians working in this direction. |
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Denoples
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2006 : 03:26:53
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No it is not. In all arts everyone just takes something that has already been done and add a bit new, and that what is new is small but significant to us.
I read several books on western classical music and I am knowledgable about jazz and carnatic music. So I could say some things about music in specific. But of course these are all independent of the realms. If you would like to see an example of what one person can achive in a lifetime in terms of musical development I would point towards Alexander Scriabin, a russian piano composer. But of course a composer is a musician, one working in an office so in a sence he is a scholar of music, not an adventurer. So it has not much to do with a bard since a bard is an adventurer first and foremost. So a bard would improvise music, not compose it.
One could combine two genres of music, which always has it's problems, that are very seperated and create something different. You can't create something out of thin air. I think almost all famous artists would say they are standing on the shoulders of giants, which is actually a quote of Newton (though he 'stole' it from someone else, ironically enough, he often gets the credit).
As for improvisation. A lot is possible. But improvisators don't create music out of thin air either. One could almost argue that improvisation is a trained reflex. Stringing large and small 'quotes of music' together. Of course improvisation in the western classical style is a lost art. But in jazz and world music it is very much alive today.
As for your example, it would very well be possible to sing some modified version of Hotel California. Actually, the instrument doesn't matter. The lyrics can be changed. It would be harder to maintain the melody while changing the rhythm but may be possible. Someone skilled could turn a song inside-out without any problem. But that doesn't have to do with creating a new genre or style of music. Think of jazzed up pop songs, pop songs based on melodies of famous western classical music, etc. Actually, this is what jazz musicians do. Jazz musicians only take a melody with some chords, change it, and improvise solos over it. In a sense, for them, every song is the same song.
Personally I don't really like to see the bard as a master of music. I find it kind of underestimates or downplays music. To master music one has to dedicate your life to music, and music alone. A bard is an adventurer that also turns out to play music. Beethoven would not be a bard, for example.
Personally, I have a deep love for carnatic music (classical music from south India) and the persi-english composer Sorabji. Now, I could say a lot on the two subjects but I won't. I just wanted to point out that most (western) people couldn't stand it. So yes, spontanious mastery of music is often not appriciated by the general public. |
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Torkael
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2006 : 05:00:33
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| So as long as there's always improvisations, we don't need to worry about musical evolution like the one in this world? I might be very wrong in this, but I've been told that most genres of music evolved because of certain events, like living conditions, presence of new technology, etc. |
"No, I will not create a song dedicated to dancing dwarves. Especially dwarves worshipping Eilistraee." - Tenasa the bard |
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Denoples
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2006 : 18:12:47
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| Music evolves because it has to, it cannot stay the same. But this is a long term development. Musicians themselves don't really try to influence the way music is going to evolve. They just try to find their voice, develop their style, |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2006 : 18:47:35
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| Suddenly coming up with country rock in a culture where music is more or less Elizabethan doesn't seem plausible to me. But whether logically possible or not, the question is, is it credible to you, Torkael, and your players or are you trying to paste rationalization onto a joke? |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 01:40:30
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Since this was posted, I've been kicking myself trying to remember the fantasy novel I read about 25 years ago that dealt with a modern 20-something year old being transported to a fantasy world. He found he could work magic through playing music and I believe discovered this by playing California Dreaming in a bar.
At the age of 13 I thought it was a pretty good read, but can't recall for the life of me which book it was.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 03:19:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
Since this was posted, I've been kicking myself trying to remember the fantasy novel I read about 25 years ago that dealt with a modern 20-something year old being transported to a fantasy world. He found he could work magic through playing music and I believe discovered this by playing California Dreaming in a bar.
At the age of 13 I thought it was a pretty good read, but can't recall for the life of me which book it was.
It sounds like something Mercedes Lackey would write... I read a couple of her books, and that kind of plot would be right up her alley.
Me, I can't stand Mercedes Lackey. I've read enough of her books to know that she can't write by herself, and not all of her collaborations are all that great. A couple are quite good, but the majority are far from good. In my opinion, of course. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 07:14:23
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L Modesitt Jr (spelling might be way off), wrote something similar, but that was about a *thinks hard* 30- or 40-something opera singer...
I'm a bit fuzzy on the details since I was having a hard time getting into the book, and when the protagonist at one point thought to herself something along the lines of, "So, this is a germanic world," I ditched it to the nearest 2nd-hand bookshop. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 08:25:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Denoples
Music evolves because it has to, it cannot stay the same. But this is a long term development. Musicians themselves don't really try to influence the way music is going to evolve. They just try to find their voice, develop their style,
yes and no. I do not believe that it would have to stay the same or that it evolves because it has too. Look at classical music, it is classical for a reason. Then again take a look at country music and how even within that genre, it has changed significantly since it's beginnings. I beleive that it would be the same for the realms. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 08:29:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Denoples
No it is not. In all arts everyone just takes something that has already been done and add a bit new, and that what is new is small but significant to us.
I read several books on western classical music and I am knowledgable about jazz and carnatic music. So I could say some things about music in specific. But of course these are all independent of the realms. If you would like to see an example of what one person can achive in a lifetime in terms of musical development I would point towards Alexander Scriabin, a russian piano composer. But of course a composer is a musician, one working in an office so in a sence he is a scholar of music, not an adventurer. So it has not much to do with a bard since a bard is an adventurer first and foremost. So a bard would improvise music, not compose it.
One could combine two genres of music, which always has it's problems, that are very seperated and create something different. You can't create something out of thin air. I think almost all famous artists would say they are standing on the shoulders of giants, which is actually a quote of Newton (though he 'stole' it from someone else, ironically enough, he often gets the credit).
As for improvisation. A lot is possible. But improvisators don't create music out of thin air either. One could almost argue that improvisation is a trained reflex. Stringing large and small 'quotes of music' together. Of course improvisation in the western classical style is a lost art. But in jazz and world music it is very much alive today.
As for your example, it would very well be possible to sing some modified version of Hotel California. Actually, the instrument doesn't matter. The lyrics can be changed. It would be harder to maintain the melody while changing the rhythm but may be possible. Someone skilled could turn a song inside-out without any problem. But that doesn't have to do with creating a new genre or style of music. Think of jazzed up pop songs, pop songs based on melodies of famous western classical music, etc. Actually, this is what jazz musicians do. Jazz musicians only take a melody with some chords, change it, and improvise solos over it. In a sense, for them, every song is the same song.
Personally I don't really like to see the bard as a master of music. I find it kind of underestimates or downplays music. To master music one has to dedicate your life to music, and music alone. A bard is an adventurer that also turns out to play music. Beethoven would not be a bard, for example.
Personally, I have a deep love for carnatic music (classical music from south India) and the persi-english composer Sorabji. Now, I could say a lot on the two subjects but I won't. I just wanted to point out that most (western) people couldn't stand it. So yes, spontanious mastery of music is often not appriciated by the general public.
once again, you seem to reflect real world senerios to your debates. This is the realms, Bards are the masters of music, riddles, rymes, poetry, etc, etc. it is not all that, but Bards, can and are masters of music. I would highly advise you to read Elaine Cunninghams novels on this, it will be an eye opener for you, realms wise.  And truly I mean no offense and am only trying to show you what I have learned over the past 20 years |
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Torkael
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 08:48:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Suddenly coming up with country rock in a culture where music is more or less Elizabethan doesn't seem plausible to me. But whether logically possible or not, the question is, is it credible to you, Torkael, and your players or are you trying to paste rationalization onto a joke?
Honestly, I don't know. The guy who was playing the bard is well known as a joker and the DM didn't seem to mind. It just doesn't seem right in some ways.
Now some of us are worried that by the next few adventures we'll see rappers by the street corner and heavy metal bands performing in the taverns. DM is known to carry things far, far out. |
"No, I will not create a song dedicated to dancing dwarves. Especially dwarves worshipping Eilistraee." - Tenasa the bard |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 08:51:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Torkael
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Suddenly coming up with country rock in a culture where music is more or less Elizabethan doesn't seem plausible to me. But whether logically possible or not, the question is, is it credible to you, Torkael, and your players or are you trying to paste rationalization onto a joke?
Honestly, I don't know. The guy who was playing the bard is well known as a joker and the DM didn't seem to mind. It just doesn't seem right in some ways.
Now some of us are worried that by the next few adventures we'll see rappers by the street corner and heavy metal bands performing in the taverns. DM is known to carry things far, far out.
Only in silverymoon my friend |
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Denoples
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 14:32:31
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I don't see how a bard adventurer can beat an equally talented civilian. Sure, the D&D system treat adventurers as more talanted than normal humans but not all talented people turn out to be adventurers. Bards dip a bit in all the arts and in general they will not master anything. It just doesn't make sense that a bard can master music, poetry, painting, acting, reciting, performing and whatever more, while she/he is mainly an adventurer. And this while someone that is a professional poet or musician can only be a master in one of those things. If Elaine wrote otherwise she made a mistake.
Most masters of arts will be artists, not adventurers.
quote:
I do not believe that it would have to stay the same or that it evolves because it has too. Look at classical music, it is classical for a reason.
Are you telling me western classical music hasn't changed? Uuh...
Let me explain how it works. In classical music you have students and teachers. Students always have to 'rebel' against their teachers, this is general human nature. People want to do it differently. Look at any art. It is littered with reactionary movements created by student/teacher polarisation. Do you know anything of classical music of today? It is again moving reactionary against what most people consider to be modern classical music.
Even classical music with a 2000 year history is changing today. This is all possible while maintaining tradition, which is part of the definition of 'classical'. |
Edited by - Denoples on 25 Mar 2006 14:37:28 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 15:02:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Denoples
I don't see how a bard adventurer can beat an equally talented civilian. Sure, the D&D system treat adventurers as more talanted than normal humans but not all talented people turn out to be adventurers. Bards dip a bit in all the arts and in general they will not master anything. It just doesn't make sense that a bard can master music, poetry, painting, acting, reciting, performing and whatever more, while she/he is mainly an adventurer. And this while someone that is a professional poet or musician can only be a master in one of those things. If Elaine wrote otherwise she made a mistake.
Most masters of arts will be artists, not adventurers.
quote:
I do not believe that it would have to stay the same or that it evolves because it has too. Look at classical music, it is classical for a reason.
Are you telling me western classical music hasn't changed? Uuh...
Let me explain how it works. In classical music you have students and teachers. Students always have to 'rebel' against their teachers, this is general human nature. People want to do it differently. Look at any art. It is littered with reactionary movements created by student/teacher polarisation. Do you know anything of classical music of today? It is again moving reactionary against what most people consider to be modern classical music.
Even classical music with a 2000 year history is changing today. This is all possible while maintaining tradition, which is part of the definition of 'classical'.
I will concur with your views on change, this last post from you sounds more solid than before to me, and I can believe that yes a student would want to be able to improve and add his/ her own influences to a genre of music. However as far as the bard goes( and getting back to gaming in the realms), and being a master of his/ her craft, I still differ. Look at the larger realms cities, that have bardic colleges and such. My view is that a bard can "adventure" in many ways. I believe you would be correct with a typical bard in an adventuring party, would have to make some sacrifices in the way of "mastery", but could make up in other ways, such as fame. I would still advise that you check out EC's novels, that are not only great reads, the bard portions really get into what I see as the realms. Not only from an adventurers perspective, but also as a bard within a society. And I did not state that a bard could only achieve mastery in one form ( please quote me correctly, and I will do the same for you ). An example that I have is the "professional" riddler in the songs and swords trilogy. Most interesting. |
Edited by - scererar on 25 Mar 2006 15:07:38 |
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Denoples
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 19:03:06
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My point is that of all the people that are musicians and artists, only a few will actually have levels in the bardic class, whenether you would call them bards or not.
My point is also that those people that don't gain levels in the bardic class have more time left to study and develop their specific skills.
Many amateur musicians will also be non-bards, which would also include many adventurers.
The only way to solve the problem is to call professional artists 'normal bards' and people that have levels in the bardic class 'adventuring bards'.
I just don't like how all these artists are being put into this very specific celtisch concept. Most artists will be more scientist than entertainer. And someone that has levels in the bardic class is an entertainer. Then throwing in the whole 'adventuring thing' makes it even stranger. If I am wrong then artists like I imagine them do not exist in the realms, and that would be a loss. |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2006 : 22:36:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Denoples
My point is that of all the people that are musicians and artists, only a few will actually have levels in the bardic class, whenether you would call them bards or not.
My point is also that those people that don't gain levels in the bardic class have more time left to study and develop their specific skills.
Many amateur musicians will also be non-bards, which would also include many adventurers.
The only way to solve the problem is to call professional artists 'normal bards' and people that have levels in the bardic class 'adventuring bards'.
I just don't like how all these artists are being put into this very specific celtisch concept. Most artists will be more scientist than entertainer. And someone that has levels in the bardic class is an entertainer. Then throwing in the whole 'adventuring thing' makes it even stranger. If I am wrong then artists like I imagine them do not exist in the realms, and that would be a loss.
I feel that we are both trying to say the same thing here (or fairly close to it), but with different words my friend. |
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Torkael
Acolyte
39 Posts |
Posted - 26 Mar 2006 : 18:32:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Torkael
Now some of us are worried that by the next few adventures we'll see rappers by the street corner and heavy metal bands performing in the taverns. DM is known to carry things far, far out.
Whole adventure went for a reset. Everyone had enough when the bard went Rammstein. Singing to a royal audience was bad enough, but using his bardic spells to light the stage up...
I have to admit that it was funny when the bard cast the pyrotechnics spell on the chandelier right above him while he sang the chorus of Sonne. A failed Spot roll and Reflex save later, a burning chandelier dropped on him, still shooting off fireworks. Is there a moral to this story? *Ponders* |
"No, I will not create a song dedicated to dancing dwarves. Especially dwarves worshipping Eilistraee." - Tenasa the bard |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31727 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2006 : 01:17:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Torkael
Whole adventure went for a reset. Everyone had enough when the bard went Rammstein.
Oooh! Very bad choice...  .
quote:
Singing to a royal audience was bad enough, but using his bardic spells to light the stage up...
Actually, I would imagine that some visual effects are likely utilised to a degree at bardic performances... to accentuate certain parts of the music. Dancing lights... streams of swirling colours... even fragrances and the like which punctuate points in the musical score.
I would love to see such a bardic concert performed at Heroes' Garden in Waterdeep.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 27 Mar 2006 01:24:34 |
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Music
