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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 16:21:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Source books also contain illustrations. Sage, if WotC put up an image of a FR character on their web site (perhaps of a blue, purple, or grey skinned drow), in your opinion, would that image be Canon?
This, again, isn't a valid comparison. Most illustrations are open to artistic whims, as we've long known, and rarely reflect actual canon elements.
You can't make that argument for maps... which are drawn largely by dedicated in-house Wizards cartographers who are regularly working with designers and other Realmsfolk who craft the canon setting material. These maps have to reflect what's happening in the canon events of the world.
Actually, the argument is valid. If people want to use the word canon inappropriately, that's fine.
I'm going to use the words "butterscotch cookie" inappropriately from now on;
"Drizzt Do'Urden is well know for his mastery of the dual butterscotch cookie, with which he swiftly eviscerates his foes." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 16:46:40
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Now your just being a troll.
From everything I've read, ANYTHING with the Realms logo it - with the sole exceptions of the video games and double Diamond novels* - and any of the Realms-related articles in the old Dragon magazine, IS REALMS CANON. Add to that anything Ed says, in any medium, UNLESS over-written by published canon by WotC (as per his contract with them). Anything else realms-related is apocryphal, which would include the dozens of D&D products that have Realms information, which includes Realmspace (which is ONLY considered canon for the SJ line).
The box the FRIA came in had the Realms logo on it - it is considered canon as of the date it was released. Granted, the world has changed quite a bit since then, but the continental outlines remain fairly the same (with the known exception of Maztica/Abeir, of course). More may have changed, including the planet's size, rotation, axial tilt, and length of day (would folks even notice that if it happened slowly over the course of a century?) but we don't have any of that information. I can only go by the facts we do know - anything 'missing' is something that should be pointed out to the designers so they can address those issues and provide us with a more 'seamless' setting in the future.
This is not a "hey look what they did wrong" thread, its more along the lines of "this is what everyone needs to be aware of" thread. I am not saying that the information I have at my disposal is everything there is - I wish we had more to go on.
*And the designers try to squeeze as much of that lore into real canon as possible, over time. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 16:57:24
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
@Markustay
The Mercaptor projection of Earth that hangs above my monitor indicates that Greenland is quite a bit larger than Australia...
Does that mean that Greenland is bigger than Australia?
No, it means the English wanted 'white people' to be superior to everyone else.
Yes, I had read those websites as well. {sigh}
The assumption must be made that the landmasses we have been given thus-far are proportionate to each other, because of the map scales we have been using all along. If we try to do a 'realistic' Gall-Peters projection to what we have, it would throw off all distances we've had up to date. Ergo I say the map is already 'to scale' - the Torillians have never had Gerardus Mercator create his ingenious navigational map, so the maps we have (all along) are flat maps with accurate continental sizes - no distortion has been given. What that means is that they are useless for navigation (which is why Torillians must still use a sextant and not merely a compass) - explorers would need to compensate for the curve of the globe in their computations.
LOL - I mispelled it sextent' the first time I wrote it, and then I imagined a spell with that name - one created by Elminster based on some of Mordenkainen's dimensional space spells.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 17:08:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Now your just being a troll.
I think that stating the RAS's Icewind Dale is "completely wrong" is trollish, but as a boy I was taught to not call names.
I also think it is somewhat disingenuous to line up a Mercator projection, with the appropriate scalars, to a fantasy "map", which is really just an artistic representation, use distances that are derived from a non-scalar "map", and declare, "See, see! This fantasy picture proves scientifically that Icewind Dale is in a temperate zone!"
I think it would be more appropriate if you used the maps that have been published here-to-fore and generated your own work, which was at once accurate and matched canon. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 17:30:42
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It does seem valid to ask if the rectangular-page maps of Toril (filled with rather blocky continents which seem to each nicely fill up squarish pages) that we are accustomed to seeing are actually Mercator-styled projections which exaggerate areas nearer the polar longitudes. Cartographers of the Realms will certainly produce "surface" maps during their movements ... but then again, they also have access to scrying, flight, and even orbital observation.
Incidentally, I have seen many maps of Icewind Dale but none which agree on exactly where it is located. Reported locations seem to vary considerably, enough that I wouldn't want to pin a longitude onto it.
@Markus - Selûne likes fish because they are associated with mariners who must navigate by the moon and stars? Or maybe it's the other way around, to explain why fish always gather just under the surface in pools of moonlight? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Jan 2013 17:36:25 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 19:54:12
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I once met a man that thought his crabs were gone...but they were actually only hidden...
As far as the "time zones" of the Forgotten Realms goes, I see what MT has made and don't see anything better produced by anyone...so until I see better than what he has freely given, I'm good with what he gave me.
Others miles may vary of course, depending on where they catch their seafood. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 02:46:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Source books also contain illustrations. Sage, if WotC put up an image of a FR character on their web site (perhaps of a blue, purple, or grey skinned drow), in your opinion, would that image be Canon?
This, again, isn't a valid comparison. Most illustrations are open to artistic whims, as we've long known, and rarely reflect actual canon elements.
You can't make that argument for maps... which are drawn largely by dedicated in-house Wizards cartographers who are regularly working with designers and other Realmsfolk who craft the canon setting material. These maps have to reflect what's happening in the canon events of the world.
Actually, the argument is valid. If people want to use the word canon inappropriately, that's fine.
So I guess Realms designers and the actual cartographer folks at Wizards who have actually said the same thing [such as what Brian James said above] that I just noted, are also using the word inappropriately too?
quote:
I'm going to use the words "butterscotch cookie" inappropriately from now on;
"Drizzt Do'Urden is well know for his mastery of the dual butterscotch cookie, with which he swiftly eviscerates his foes."
Was this was really necessary? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 10 Jan 2013 05:46:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 05:17:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
I think it would be more appropriate if you used the maps that have been published here-to-fore and generated your own work, which was at once accurate and matched canon.
Well, the Forgotten Realms Interactive Atlas has a lot of maps, and since it was distributed for sale by TSR, that makes them published maps.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 05:28:37
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Heretics can be burned as witches right?
Anyway, saying anything published by the company that makes the maps that determine where in the hell things are ISN'T canon...well, that is just plain silly and sounds like...
Squirrel...that is such an odd word...I need to find out where that comes from.
EDIT:
AHAH! It means shadow-tailed from Greek!
There, I feel better. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
Edited by - Dalor Darden on 10 Jan 2013 05:30:30 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 13:57:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
As far as the "time zones" of the Forgotten Realms goes, I see what MT has made and don't see anything better produced by anyone...so until I see better than what he has freely given, I'm good with what he gave me.
And thats the sad part - I did this JUST for the timezones (at first). The other 'facts' that came to light (the relative positions of everything else compared to Earth) was just happenstance.
The Hidden Lord seems to think I was 'gunning' for RAS, which I wasn't. He still remains the ONLY FR author who I have bought all of his books (except his most recent, but I am always a couple behind - I like to buy series after they are complete). I take things apart because I care. I can pick on RAS because I know his stories well enough. Other authors tend to fly beneath my radar.
And this discussion wouldn't even need to take place if we had some weather maps and information on tides and temperate zones, etc. If its revealed anything, its shown us where FR has been deficient. Thats why I mock the designers who (at the beginning of 4e) stated "we've filled-in every square inch of the Realms". Not only is that patently false, but there is some very basic information about the game world that has 'gone missing' since the beginning.
I want the setting to be better - to be what it can be. There is no reason in the world that people are playing Golarion over The Realms except that someone screwed up. The Forgotten Realms needs to take its crown back, and should be able to do so easily. By not saying there are any problems with the world (and illustrating them as we all have with this thread) we are in denial. Don't ignore the problems, don't try to come up with "its magic!" excuses... FIX the damn thing. You think I care if they say, "whoops, guess what, Waterdeep has been closer to 55º all along?" I'd rather they act like they were in error all along, then continue thinking a region that falls-out with the north tip of EVERMEET is so much colder then it should be (and move Evermeet south* - how did I not notice that before? See how much weirdness shows up when you draw lines everywhere?) We've had people quote three different sources that say the planet is smaller then Earth, bigger then earth, and the same size as earth! They need to nail this stuff down.
And I am trying different projections still - I wish Hidden Lord could see my work process (one of the few comp things I don't bother with is video). Each map has dozens of other maps for various sources pasted in layers, so I can come up with the best solution for each problem (because every single edition has changes to the maps and scales). Some times, no matter what I do (the current case of Icewind Dale) anything I apply screws something else up even worse. I don't know enough about Meteorology, but perhaps the nearby glacier can account for much of its coldness? (and we need to explain the MASSIVE icecaps at both poles - WAY larger then Earth's). I know it gets very cold in NY because we get this Canadian Wind blowing SE across the Great Lakes, which makes us much colder then other places in the world at the same latitude, so I am sure there could be a scientific explanation for the frigid weather in Icewind Dale (note the name of the place!)
*Although the "Its Magic' excuse actually does work for Evermeet, so that can stay where it is and do a 'Shangri-la' thing. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jan 2013 14:04:25 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 15:23:01
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I was using an odd map I found in the FRIA folders - it appears to be a paste-together version of the 1e maps that was never actually used for the globes. I assume this was there 'work off of' map for what they did, and they included it just for the hell of it (because the only way to view it is to dig through the folders).
This appears to be the map they based all of their info on (it lines up with their other maps). So I've been stripping the lines out of it (not sure why they were even there - they don't coincide with anything) and finally decided it wasn't pretty-enough (my patch-job), so I began pasting-in the maps from the trail maps booklets. Low and behold, those guys did something quite strange - they 'squashed' the map n/s! It would have made more sense if they had lengthened everything for a 'standard projection' on the globe. They seem to have done that (somewhat) with the topographical map they did (the one I linked to earlier) - they 'stretched' the other continents (but not Faerûn/Kara-Tur/Zakhara)). Thats VERY interesting , because it means they assumed the maps were already stretched - when they stretched things for the topographical map, the F/K/Z super-continent once again has its original shape (stretched to appear correct when applied to the globe). That means the FRIA designers thought the maps we have had since the beginning were already distorted.
Its not a huge difference, because Toril's continets do not extend as far north and south as earth's does - most of the map tends to stay centered on the globe. The areas that normally get badly distorted don't even have terrain on them, for the most part. For comparison, compare this map to this one, both from the FRIA. The first is the 'flat map' I used (for the most part) for my Timezone map. The second is the distorted map for the globe. You'll note the inconsistencies - the map that coincides with all of our canon maps is the green/blue one, and thats the one the FRIA designers felt was already stretched for a flat-map projection (and allowed for it when they made the global maps).
You have to look at them side-by-side to see the differences. I had noticed minor differences before, but not the whole 'squashed' thing - its barely discernible (because of our continental layout, unlike Earth). I find it very interesting to have uncovered the methodology behind the original profantasy team. It seems they ran into a lot of the same problems I did. On the map I am currently working with, I can actually see where they 'fudged' things to get certain maps to line up. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jan 2013 15:23:45 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 16:05:23
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Not sure if anyone is even bothering to follow these over-long posts about my methodology (you can all thank Hidden lord for them), but whatever.
I just realized I was making a classic (RPG) cartography mistake - working from the past work of others. I just wasted the last hour and a half figuring the precise percentages they altered the maps by when it suddenly dawned on me... WHY? 
The point was to show an accurate portrayal of the original (1e) FR maps, and I am working with a squashed one the FRIA designers used. If they did assume the original maps were already distorted (and all evidence suggests that), then I should go back to those same original maps and NOT apply the distortion. I think that will put Icewind Dale a bit further north - I won't know by how much until I start tinkering. The only things that really matters at this point are Faerûn, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara. I don't even plan on including the rest for this mock-up. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jan 2013 16:14:48 |
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Joebing
Learned Scribe
USA
202 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 16:34:35
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Don't sweat it. I did almost the same thing when I attempted a map project for the Realms once upon a time. I think we all have.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not sure if anyone is even bothering to follow these over-long posts about my methodology (you can all thank Hidden lord for them), but whatever.
I just realized I was making a classic (RPG) cartography mistake - working from the past work of others. I just wasted the last hour and a half figuring the precise percentages they altered the maps by when it suddenly dawned on me... WHY?
The point was to show an accurate portrayal of the original (1e) FR maps, and I am working with a squashed one the FRIA designers used. If they did assume the original maps were already distorted (and all evidence suggests that), then I should go back to those same original maps and NOT apply the distortion. I think that will put Icewind Dale a bit further north - I won't know by how much until I start tinkering. The only things that really matters at this point are Faerûn, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara. I don't even plan on including the rest for this mock-up.
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Now plugging away on mass conversion to 5e, as well as my imprint J. Halk Games.
http://www.facebook.com/JHalkGames
First adventure on DM Guild: Lair of Elaacrimalicros |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 16:53:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
He also wrote that in the 2e era, s one must wonder why he referenced Leira as still being around? Moving forward, thats something else to consider. Instead of a mistake, we can work with that (and he was aware of the ToT, because he DID reference that).
Leira wasn't killed until after the Time of Troubles, and it was years later until someone really came out and said she was dead (Cyric in 'Prince of Lies'). Realmspace was written in the gap between Forgotten Realms Adventures and Prince of Lies, so it's possible that the decision for Cyric to kill Leira hadn't been made yet. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 17:55:38
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| Incidentally, ProFantasy Software maintains an internet petition to republish their FRIA. More signatures and more visibility means more chance of Wizbro becoming aware of this demand, although Atari and Hasbro are very territorial over their relevant licensing rights. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 19:57:01
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I signed that years ago - I truly doubt it will get anywhere.
Besides, I think the software's way out-dated. Its nice to have, but clunky as hell (and actually omits areas, Shadowdale for one!). I am hoping they are working on 'something' new for 5e - there were some hints in that direction (Wyatt mentioned 'scalable terrain' IIRC).
My comp is having a cow right now - by trying to paste every available map together (the world is mine! ) I've created a file that GIMP says is 5 times too large. GIMP is a wimp - I'm pretty sure I created larger in PS. Not that its not doing what I want, its just reeeeeaaaal slow, and my tower is making lots of 'thrashing' noises.
Must... have.... more.... POWER!!!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 20:19:14
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Ha, PFS would use their latest and greatest map engine if given another shot at this lucrative license. I doubt the petition will ever successfully inspire WotC to make another FRIA, but it might be enough to eventually convince Hasbro/Atari to release their grips on their IPs. A dead IP doesn't produce revenue and currently they're basically choking the life out of it with their relentless strangleholds.
But to be objective, FRIA is a marginally ambitous and impressive application for its time. I think it could have turned a lot worse (and I mean a *lot* worse), but it also might have turned out significantly better ... PFS did a passable job then and I expect they would probably do a passable job now (assuming they've kept up on technology), but I think it might be better to take a chance employing a different company to develop FRIA ver 2.0 with the best aspects of FRIA as the minimum standard. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 10 Jan 2013 20:33:03 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 20:26:38
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| Back to timezones ... I'm not sure there are any nations on Toril large enough to actually span multiple timezones. My understanding is that Shou is really more of a paper empire composed of many smaller nation-regions. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 20:55:23
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Well, they really don't even have the 'timezone' concept. Thats just for us so we have something we can relate to. The sun doesn't actually jump by 1 hour spans so you have to figure there really are millions of teensy 'timezones' - the sun does indeed come up in western Cormyr just slightly earlier then it does in eastern cormyr (and Cormyr is pretty damn small).
By the same token, If I am standing on one side of the timezone/longitude line, and my friend is standing on the other side, it doesn't mean it gets dark and hour earlier for me - that would be silly. Even in the RW that does not happen; it may be an hour later where me friend is (three feet away from me), but the sun doesn't give a rats arse abut timezones. I remember running back-and forth on the Hoover Damn yelling, "I'm a time traveler!" Folks (including my wife) thought I was nuts.
Anyhow, there are no timeszones in Toril - the map is just meant as a handy reference, is all.
The software I would love to see is something that allowed you to create beautiful maps, and not just of FR. I used to make amazing game maps using the mapping engine in the HOMM game. There were decent ones in at least two other games I used to use (same premise - fantasy mass combat) but I can't recall their names.* Anyhow, those were just modding adds for existing games, and I was able to do more with them then any program specifically designed for this. Sucks i don't have those games anymore.
*I believe one was Age of Wonders. Man, I miss all those turn-based fantasy battles games. Damn Warcrack knocking everyone else out of the market - I'm too old to do 'real time'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 10 Jan 2013 21:11:23 |
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Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 21:07:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Back to timezones ... I'm not sure there are any nations on Toril large enough to actually span multiple timezones. My understanding is that Shou is really more of a paper empire composed of many smaller nation-regions.
Calimshan, Tethyr and Amn might spread far enough from west to east to have more than one, but since: 1) it's uncommon to travel fast enough for that to matter and 2) there isn't much in the way of portable, accurate time pieces, I don't think that it's much of an issue except perhaps for the occasional sage. Someone in Netheril probably gave it some thought though. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jan 2013 : 22:14:59
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I think you got, Markustay, when you referenced FRIA file lodt3a.bmp!
On that map, Icewind Dale lies about 1100 miles of north of Waterdeep, and since a degree of latitude is equivalent to ~69 miles, that would place Icewind Dale at about 60 degrees north, a quite chilly region of Faerun, to be sure.
Nice work!
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[br
Since the distance between any two lines of latitude = 1037.5 miles, that would mean Ten Towns could not be more then about half a latitude line away, and half the distance would place it right around 52.5º (45º + 1/2(15º). If we use the most generous number of 700 miles and plug-in the 1037.5 mile figure we get 67%, or 2/3, which work out rather neatly to 10º distance from 45º, still only giving us 55ºN.
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Edited by - The Hidden Lord on 10 Jan 2013 22:29:00 |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 01:10:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Not sure if anyone is even bothering to follow these over-long posts about my methodology (you can all thank Hidden lord for them), but whatever.
I'm finding them quite interesting. I just don't have anything to really contribute except "wow" |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 02:32:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Back to timezones ... I'm not sure there are any nations on Toril large enough to actually span multiple timezones. My understanding is that Shou is really more of a paper empire composed of many smaller nation-regions.
Might be worth pointing out that prior to the need for unified railroad timetables, pretty much every nation that used minutes in their timekeeping had multiple timezones. Well, perhaps not Luxembourg. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 04:52:53
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
I think you got, Markustay, when you referenced FRIA file lodt3a.bmp!
On that map, Icewind Dale lies about 1100 miles of north of Waterdeep, and since a degree of latitude is equivalent to ~69 miles, that would place Icewind Dale at about 60 degrees north, a quite chilly region of Faerun, to be sure.
Nice work!
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
[br
Since the distance between any two lines of latitude = 1037.5 miles, that would mean Ten Towns could not be more then about half a latitude line away, and half the distance would place it right around 52.5º (45º + 1/2(15º). If we use the most generous number of 700 miles and plug-in the 1037.5 mile figure we get 67%, or 2/3, which work out rather neatly to 10º distance from 45º, still only giving us 55ºN.
Except that the lodt3a map is 'squashed' form the Trail maps it is derived from (and the Zakhara campaign map). That map is NOT a flat map - it was meant as a 'skin' for the globe. Because the FRIA guys felt the need to distort it smaller, that means they assumed the maps we have always been using were already distorted - that makes the squashed lodt3a map the 'real' way the continents look, and the distances are actually compressed from other maps.
I've been working hard at this all day - I will post something tomorrow - I still have to clean them up a wee bit. From what I have so far, I can tell the lodt3a map is 16% smaller in the height (thats the percentage I had to stretch it to make it line-up with the trail maps perfectly).
The only thing I have really proven thus far is that I (quite on my own) came to the same conclusions as the FRIA team, and that the existing campaign maps are all already stretched. That means those should be used as-is for a projection map (although what projection, exactly, is still up to debate - they are all off in some way).
I'll try to post the two maps side-by-side tomorrow - you can really see how flattened the FRIA globe map looks compared to the trail maps. The sad thing is, I have been working on this since last night (now 24 hours), and it was just to facilitate something completely different I am making (a map based only on the Fonstad Atlas/Realmspace data). When I realized the FRIA globe maps were squashed I had to start from scratch again. Just for fun, I want to see how things work out when I build This world. (which should be the 10K wide planet Slade was talking about in Realmspace).
Ha! I have proven the Toril in Realmspace is not the same planet Toril as the one in FR... go figure. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jan 2013 04:57:58 |
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Xnella Moonblade-Thann
Learned Scribe
USA
234 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 09:08:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Just for fun, I want to see how things work out when I build This world. (which should be the 10K wide planet Slade was talking about in Realmspace).
I believe I have user-made* a map of Faerûn (it may be 2e era because of how some areas are marked) that looks a lot like the world in the picture in the link. That map is a .pdf file, and if you like I can give it to you to use if you need to. I believe it differs enough from anything WotC has that it may help you in your mapping.
*I assume this map of mine is user-made because the text for places looks like handwriting and someone had possibly scanned the map and made it into a .pdf file because of its size. |
"Sweet water and light laughter until next we meet." - traditional elven farewell
Please forgive any spelling and grammer errors, as my android touch-screen phone has no spellchecker. If I do make a grammer mistake, please let me know and I'll try to fix it.
New laptop, still trying to sort my "scrolls" on its shelves...and when will this cursed thing stop doing things I tell it not to? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2013 : 18:20:14
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Nah, I'm good - I'm just falling in love with FR all over again ATM. Now that I have everything glued together I can take it all in in all its glorious majesty. {sigh}
I've pretty much just been staring at this thing for the past hour. 
The file is massive, but it was worth it. Once I apply this map to a globe (and I can even do a polar projection!) we can see how Karen Fonstad envisioned the planet, which is what I assume Slade was going by for his SJ info. ED also once said that the Fonstad atlas maps were "the closest to my originals". So here's my thinking - that IS the FORGOTTEN REALMS - the original. That world we've been thinking of as the realms - Abeir-Toril - is really just the published rpg setting. The smaller planet(oid?) is "Ed's world" (even though I have both K-T and Zakhara on there) - thats where ALL the novels take place! Thats why Drizzt has been so damn cold. 
The planet Abeir-Toril is a different world then the Forgotten Realms - they are very similar in many ways, but very different in others.
So now we have three canon FR worlds - the smaller one, the one thats the same size as Earth, and the one thats 12% bigger. There were two, but then Abeir and Toril were split apart, so now there's three. Abeir and the Forgotten Realms were probably the one that was originally split apart (sundering Ed's Realms from bits and pieces of itself)) - thats why they are so much smaller.
A world for everyone! I completely nuked canon with this argument. We were never playing on the same world the novels were set on. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 11 Jan 2013 18:24:10 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2013 : 23:34:00
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Okay, I didn't want to put the file on my DeviantART account because it didn't contain any 'art' by me (I did hand-draw a couple of things, but just to fix where map sections didn't meet correctly). The site I usually use for 'other stuff' was photobucket, but they shrink everything down. So I had to find a free pic hosting site, and one that supported very large files - the best I could find was Imgur (which was a great find BTW - they don't even ask you to join!) I still had to reduce the file down to 10 meg, so I lost quite bit, but that was the best I could do.
The map of the 10K wide version of Toril, which is presumably the one from the Fonstad atlas and the Realmspace product. This map assumes this is the only continent on the planet, and the distances match the canon distances found on other maps (which is a lot harder then it looks).
Waterdeep is still "just above 45º" - I even pushed it a tad further, since we had some leeway with that statement. Now Icewind Dale is around 57º, or about the same latitude as Northern Scotland. Not great, but much better then before. The equator has moved WAY up to just below Calimshan. Considering they call it "The Lake of Steam" I figure thats okay. It also falls out dead-center of the Raurin desert, which works for us.
However, Zakhara has just gotten colder. A LOT colder... part of it is in the antarctic circle! So, assuming this is indeed the way the world is supposed to be (and the FRIA and the map in the 3e campaign are 'just pictures', as Hidden Lord proclaims), then we must also assume that this world - this 'Toril' - doesn't have Zakhara. Karen Fonstad never showed Zkahra, just Kara-Tur. She showed the southern portion just trailing off.
Ergo, if this is the way the world is supposed to really be (and Ten towns STILL isn't cold enough), then we have to also assume that Hidden Lord's Zakhara has sultans that wear those furry Russian hats instead of Turbans and they get around in 'flying sledges' instead of on flying carpets, becuase DAMN, its cold in that thar Zakhara!
Evermeet is fine - the FRIA map (just that one) did have Evermeet way too far north - my apologies on that one. My bad. I even checked the Maztica maps (the only one that shows the relative position of Evermeet to Faerûn). Of course, Maztica doesn't exist either - that was just a figment of our imaginations (since it couldn't possibly fit on this tiny world).
There is no other way to present the data - the only way to get Icewind Dale further north without changing the canon distances is to shrink the world, and I did just that, finding two sources that 'sort of' confirmed the possibility (the last post was a joke, BTW... in case anyone didn't get that). Every time I try to correct Icewind dales latitude it screws up a bunch of other stuff. It has to have some other explanation (and like I said, there could actually be a logical scientific one - I just don't know that much about weather).
I call this world 'Edtopia', or as the spelljammers like to call it, "The gentleman's planet". 
I am only going to keep that up for a couple of days - I don't want anyone to think any of that is 'right'. I was very hesitant about posting it in the first place. I do find the idea of Evermeet being relatively close to the Japan-clone islands rather interesting though. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 12 Jan 2013 23:38:54 |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 02:32:07
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| Do we have any information on the altitude of Icewind Dale? It must get pretty high at least near the slopes of the Spine of the World. I must point, as well, that northern Europe is not necessarily a good model for the region's climate, as it is heavily influenced by the warm waters of the Gulf Stream. The Alaska current also warms up northwestern North America. And given the fact that Waterdeep itself is supposed to be very cold during winter, I think it's a good guess that the Sword Coast is affected by a cold ocean current. If you take a look at the Chilean coast at around 50ºS, you have glaciers like the Southern Patagonian Ice Field, which covers part of the Andes and reaches sea level. That's in part due to the influence of the cold Humboldt Current. What still bothers me, however, is that, being so close to the sea, these regions don't have huge extremes of temperature. So Icewind Dale could be very cold, but I can't imagine it having worse winters than the Silver Marches, which are away from the moderating influence of the sea. In my "model", Icewind Dale would probably average around 0ºC in winter, and could often get down to -20ºC... but not -40ºC and lower like you'll probably see in the Silver Marches, the Anauroch and north of the Ride, unless it's on substantially higher altitudes. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 15:34:01
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Could you answer a couple questions I have regarding your methodology, Markustay?
What points did you use in constructing your geodetic system?
What developable surface did you use to begin your projection?
I also wanted to mention that "my Zakhara" lies between Abeir-Torils equator and the 30th parallel south, with the exception of the Islands of the Utter South, which are somewhat more southerly.
Oh, I also wanted to post a flat map showing Abeir-Toril as Size E planet, one that is 7615 miles across.
http://i.imgur.com/mh2RY.png
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Edited by - The Hidden Lord on 13 Jan 2013 15:47:05 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 16:44:47
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I could barely get the entirety of the Faeruturraharan super-continent onto a 10K world - how could it possibly fit on a 7K one?
Unless you change all know canon distances between locales. Yes, if I gave some sort of bizarro-stretching to the upper (and I suppose lower) portions of the map I could get everything to work (temperature-wise), but I would change the existing canon information we have regarding distances (and at these scales, 140 miles is barely noticeable, so the differences between editions is also negligible).
Reading the beginning of the Fonstad atlas last night, she made the same assumptions I and the FRIA team did - that the maps we have always been looking at are scaled proportionately, and always have been. If anything you would have to push Icewind Dale further south to compensate for the distortion of the world's curvature (which is precisely what the FRIA guys did for those few 'skins' they made for their globe).
I didn't use any math - that's some pretty advanced calculus right there, and I never took calculus. I taught myself trig (so I could take a comp. class two years ahead of schedule), but never bothered with calc - unless you plan to be a scientist, its not much use in day-to-day living. What I did was use two different grids (long. and lat.), one taken from a cartography site, and then one I created myself (because I wasn't thrilled with the first one) which I derived directly from a Hammond map of the Earth. The two pretty-much showed the same info, it was just that distances between longitude lines was slightly off from line to line on that first one (not by much, but I demand perfection). I applied that standard projection grid to our canon maps - thats how I derived my data. I made the same exact assumptions both Karen Fonstad and the FRIA team did, even though they both envisioned the world differently (different sizes - KF didn't have the info we got later, and neither did Slade).
Mapolq made an insanely good point, and I am embarrassed I didn't even consider that - Icewind Dale could very well be on a high plateau - its on the other side of a huge mountains range! I've been thinking about this all wrong - the Himalayas fall-out at the same latitude as Egypt! And we know how we envision both of those places - latitude matters far less then altitude does - shame on me for over looking that point! (and thank you very much Mapolq for pointing that out - RAS gets a reprieve! )
He still murdered Chewbacca though.
Maybe Drizzt thought he was a yeti.........
Anyhow, this whole enterprise burnt me out for FR maps for awhile - I won't be getting back to the Faerûn for at least a week or two. That, plus I need to map my new campaign I am running - I've added so many elements into it that the original model is no longer useful. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 Jan 2013 16:46:24 |
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Time Zones
