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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1271 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 19:04:41
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| Arguements aside, (Markustay, I love your maps, and I do use them quite frequently for reference, keep up the good work)on the topic of Timezones in the Realms, I found this in my Google Reader feed the other day, and for a non-cannon source, it can provide a nice reference to arbitrating timezones in the Realms. |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 19:56:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I didn't use any math - that's some pretty advanced calculus right there, and I never took calculus.
A map constructed without math... That doesn't sound like cartography to me, more like art.
If I were going to take a journey, I don't think I'd be comfortable navigating with a "map" made by an artist who said that their art piece, er... map, that was just an elaboration of previous artistic speculation, but hey...
YMMV.
(Lol) |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 20:50:28
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Travellers on Toril hardly need GPS accuracy. Old land maps usually depicted interesting objects or features like castles and bridges with oversized illustrations; and these could be found easily enough if one simply followed the terrain and roads and rivers. Old nautical maps were usually drawn more "accurately" in that they accounted for actual relative positions of things, but maps covering large scales would be always distorted in some way by the global curvature ... there was an art to drawing such maps so they would focus on the least-distorted areas of interest. Cartography was indeed a highly developed art which covered a number of different map styles and "viewpoints" different from the top-view coordinate topography used in our modern maps. People were still able to travel by land or sea to different continents and get where they wanted to go.
The non-math involved is what troubles me with judging which maps of Toril are most "accurate". We have no mathematical model to use as an official standard, and no "real world" data from which to model it. So, to me, it seems like trying to establish mathematical distinctions (timezones, etc) with any precision in the Realms is not possible until we get better maps.
I consider FRIA very precise but not very accurate, the point-vector map lines might allow infinitely scalable zooming of any feature, but that doesn't convince me that the features themselves were placed exactly where they should be. It's like linking a measuring instrument with +/- 20% accuracy to a digital display which reports 0.0001% precision.quote:
Brian R. James
As a Forgotten Realms game designer, I can tell you quite definitively that Realms maps are canon.
Furthermore, Markustay's maps are so well regarded by many of us, that his suggested alterations are often incorporated into the official maps as they are updated (thus making his work canon).
This is pretty definitive. And every map of Toril is drawn by artists, without much math involved. Select which art pieces you want to display in your gallery. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Jan 2013 20:58:43 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2013 : 20:52:04
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LOL
I could comment on your 'interview style', but I'm too much of a gentleman to do that. I am a member of a couple of cartography sites and none of them 'do math'. Its not supposed to be about inarguable science - its supposed to be about the sheer beauty of the art-form (and old maps are a type of art). If you plan to use any of my maps to get around, then you have way bigger problems then I first realized.
If you've inspired me to do anything, its to NOT do any more FR maps. I am tired of all the 'entitlement' anyway. Thats okay - the PF people have been begging me for some... ado.
@Delwa - Thats a right fine piece of work there, but the equator still seems to be a bit far north. Still, its pretty cool - thanks for posting it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Akantor
Acolyte
France
24 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2014 : 23:35:10
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Hi and thank you for this wonderful topic. I learned a great deal of things. And, not the least, that I was not the only one to wonder some weird things ;)
A special thanks to Markustay. His maps are just incredible. And the one on the vilhon reach just ended hours of research by locating Amry and Telpir, quoted in the "Fellowship of the purple staff" entry in champion of valor,but never located anywhere.
I have a high level wizzard with teleport, trying to build some great things (just enrolled in the purple staves). So I'm particulary interested in overland informations.
These days I'm trying to specify coordinate for différent places on Faerun. A bit like longitude and latitude. I miss both FRIA and geograph skills to do it properly but I was wondering what would be the best point for a greenwich equivalent (ie longitude start)? Is there canon about that.
-Waterdeep as a port and important city would fit.
- Lantan with its mecanical too (sailor used to have a clock set on greenwich clock to be able to calculate difference).
- Athkatla, as it needs to be good on longitude to reach Maztica.
- Candlekeep?
- Someone talked about MythDrannor. But it's not a port, and calculating longitude is a sailor thing. Other have land feature to travel.
- Somewhere else ?
For the time being, I've use only the main FR3 map scale to have 1pixel = 1mile, and chosed Hlondeth as point of origin (it's the nearest city to the center point). So Ordulin is (-30, 610). |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2014 : 23:42:29
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| Akantor you at 14th level and 3.5 can use greater teleport at least two times if you do not want any other 7th level spell for use that day. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Akantor
Acolyte
France
24 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 00:10:55
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Actually I'm Wiz5/Clc3/MT6, so I can't cast 7nth for the moment. But thx anyway.
My real question was: What's the best location for a greenwich equivalent? |
English is not my primary language so forgive me for any mistake, I do my best (and spend skill point at my next level) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 00:52:40
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What was in effect 2003 is that Prime Meridian is Myth Drannor.
There is no demanding reason that you use that location of course. Any point can be longitude Zero and go East and West of such until reaching the other side of the planet. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Akantor
Acolyte
France
24 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 17:14:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
What was in effect 2003 is that Prime Meridian is Myth Drannor.
Big thanks. Where is it from?
It seams weird as Longitude calculation are some kind of sailor thing and MD is way inland, but why not, may be elves need it for some magical experimentation. |
English is not my primary language so forgive me for any mistake, I do my best (and spend skill point at my next level) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 17:33:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Akantor
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
What was in effect 2003 is that Prime Meridian is Myth Drannor.
Big thanks. Where is it from?
It seams weird as Longitude calculation are some kind of sailor thing and MD is way inland, but why not, may be elves need it for some magical experimentation.
That is from http://www.candlekeep.com/fr_faq.htm#_Toc16090521
As for location of the PM it would tend to be based on a capital at the time people figured out that there was a use for it. Or for any other reason . I am not sure why Greenwich is the PM for Earth.
Oh looked that up as well.
quote:
A prime meridian, based at the Royal Observatory, Greenwich, in London,
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Akantor
Acolyte
France
24 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2014 : 20:17:18
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| Ok thanks. And thanks for the link. It's a wonderful FAQ I didn't know. |
English is not my primary language so forgive me for any mistake, I do my best (and spend skill point at my next level) |
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Returnip
Learned Scribe
222 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2023 : 10:59:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EDIT: Its hidden. If we take Ed's figure of 8880 for our diameter, that gives us a radius of 4440, or a circumference of 27897.342763877365 miles (so lets just call it 28K because its easier to do the math, and at the scales I am working NO-ONE is going to see that 103 miles anyway). Circumference = Equator, not Diameter.
Because I am a masochist I decided to do this all over again... for the 6th time. I found one last discrepancy that will give us a bit more girth on setting. I can also switch (for the continental outline) from a Mercator to a Gall-Peters projection (which gives me a scientific reason to stretch the continents along the N/S axis). So if I leave the longitude & latitude lines alone, and stretch the continents to a more 'realistic'* projection, things may workout even better.
No matter what I do, though, people in Ten Towns wear shorts in the summer. There really is absolutely no way getting around that. The very top edge of the Faerūnian continent is 1000 miles away (from Icewind Dale), and it falls out precisely where the top edge of Iceland does, and I know people live in Iceland and do just fine. So a 1000 miles north of Ten Towns is weather that is maybe not 'hospitable', but quite livable.
If we decide to ignore the canon about Waterdeep being "just above 45°", and shove Waterdeep north to about 60° that would solve Icewind Dale's apparently magic-induced coldness, but would also completely screw-up where the Equator is, and invalidate too many other things. NO, Waterdeep at 45° works out perfectly in regards to where the tropics should be (so somebody obviously thought about this stuff before).
In 5e they need to feed poor Toril some more Abeir and fatten it up. 
And at this point I think I may be talking to myself - does anyone really care about this stuff but me? 
*"Realistic" is relative, since we do not know what projection our maps have been all along, but if it helps to assume they were Mercator, then that works out on all fronts (because Mercator IS the default projection, usually).
So I was doing some calculations of my own to determine climates a while back and although I was using the 3e map the rough numbers should be applicable.
Anyway, Icewind dale ends up roughly on the same latitude as Scandinavia, and being from Scandinavia myself I can just say that it ain't very cold here. However there are two things that I had to take into account in the comparison, and that's the gulf stream and the westerlies. If you remove both you end up at an average temperature of about 10 degrees celsius less. That's still not cold enough to warrant freezing temperatures for the majority of the year. So what can we infer to bring the average temperature of Icewind Dale down further? Meltwater from the glaciers giving close to zero degrees celsius rivers, and cold winds blowing in from the glaciers.
Anyway, just wanted to add this little piece of info in for anyone who is comparing climates in the realms and our world based on latitude alone.
Also on the actual topic of time and clocks I found this little comment from Ed:
https://www.sageadvice.eu/do-watches-or-clocks-of-any-sort-exist-in-the-forgotten-realms/
In short, measuring hours in Faerūn is starting to become a thing. |
On the other hand you have different fingers. |
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Time Zones
