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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 20:14:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
The first of the links above contains WotC's perspective, and the second is a link to the wikipedia entry on canon, so you can learn more about canon.
You posted same link twice and that one did not say world map changed. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 20:33:55
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze
Got a reference for that?
I sure do, Tasker!
http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drdd/20080828a
http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drdd/20080828a
The first of the links above contains WotC's perspective, and the second is a link to the wikipedia entry on canon, so you can learn more about canon.
The first link doesn't say anything about the interactive atlas. It does say they aren't retconing anything, which means the atlas was still canon.
I don't need a wikipedia entry on canon. Wotc canon is simple. Its canon unless they say it isn't. I don't need a generic definition from some other site to know that. |
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The_Orconian
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 20:43:56
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Philip Athans said:
quote:
PA: By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover. We’d spent the last fifteen years or so detailing just about every nook and cranny of the map, in hundreds of books, game products, short stories, comic books, Dragon articles, and Dungeon adventures. There was hardly a square centimeter on the map that wasn’t detailed somewhere <snip>
Using Ed's quoted radius of 4440, we have a planetary surface area of 247,728,404 square miles.
I never realized we had such epic level designers. My hats off to you sir. |
Orcs am gewt peeble |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 21:22:01
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Sorry about the wrong link, Kentinal, I edited the post with the correct link.
Sorry, Tasker, but the FRIA was never canon. |
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 22:25:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Sorry about the wrong link, Kentinal, I edited the post with the correct link.
Sorry, Tasker, but the FRIA was never canon.
Unless you can show me a quote from Wotc that says that, I'm saying it's canon. The official position has been that if they publish it, its canon unless they say otherwise. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 22:49:02
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That's cool; but it doesn't really make sense. How could the FRIA be canon? Nothing 'happens' in it...
The FRIA is more like a art piece or coffee-table book which accompanies a popular fiction series; a companion piece for fans, but not 'part of the world'.
The links I provided illustrate this pretty well, especially the quote from Athans, where he pretty much defines what canon means, as it pertains to the Forgotten Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Sorry about the wrong link, Kentinal, I edited the post with the correct link.
Sorry, Tasker, but the FRIA was never canon.
Unless you can show me a quote from Wotc that says that, I'm saying it's canon. The official position has been that if they publish it, its canon unless they say otherwise.
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 22:58:40
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Markustay,
When you did your Mercator projection, by what factor did you stretch those portions of Faerun north of the 60th parallel? Did it cause any other fit problems to stretch only the portion of the continent above 60 degrees? |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 23:13:05
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A source does not have to have anything "happen" in it to be canon. By that logic, ANY non-novel sourcebook would not be "canon". To quote that WotC link: "If it happened in a novel or in a game product— any part of the FORGOTTEN REALMS canon— it happened. We aren’t going to ask you to buy a copy of The Grand History of the Realms then throw it away. Every detail ever published on this massive setting is still there, is still a part of the history of this living, breathing world. We may have a hundred years’ worth of distance from it, but it happened, and all that history will continue to inform authors, game designers, players, and DMs as they continue to explore the FORGOTTEN REALMS world."
One does not have to be a genious to realize that an offical TSR/WotC source, regardless of what it contains IS canon. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2013 : 23:19:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
A source does not have to have anything "happen" in it to be canon. By that logic, ANY non-novel sourcebook would not be "canon". To quote that WotC link: "If it happened in a novel or in a game product— any part of the FORGOTTEN REALMS canon— it happened. We aren’t going to ask you to buy a copy of The Grand History of the Realms then throw it away. Every detail ever published on this massive setting is still there, is still a part of the history of this living, breathing world. We may have a hundred years’ worth of distance from it, but it happened, and all that history will continue to inform authors, game designers, players, and DMs as they continue to explore the FORGOTTEN REALMS world."
One does not have to be a genious to realize that an offical TSR/WotC source, regardless of what it contains IS canon.
No that's not right. Something has to happen in the source to be canon. So a game source book that describes in-world events is canon, but a sculpture of Drizzt in a convention hall depicting Drizzt with a particular color sash is not canon; instead, it's a art piece based on the setting. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 01:27:16
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On the 1e map Ten Towns is 650 miles away from Waterdeep. On the 2e campaign map its a little closer to 700 miles.
On the 3e campaign map its more like 500 miles. My assumption here is that it is 500 miles, and the 1e/2e maps were 'stretched' for whatever projection they were using. But whatever...
Since the distance between any two lines of latitude = 1037.5 miles, that would mean Ten Towns could not be more then about half a latitude line away, and half the distance would place it right around 52.5º (45º + 1/2(15º). If we use the most generous number of 700 miles and plug-in the 1037.5 mile figure we get 67%, or 2/3, which work out rather neatly to 10º distance from 45º, still only giving us 55ºN.
That falls out somewhere in Canada, but well below Alaska. As far as I can tell, Sarah Palin is made of sterner stuff then Drizzt and Co. So was William Wallace - Scotland is well above that line as well (it falls-out around Newcastle, England (for a point of reference you can relate to).
No matter how you slice it, the only way to move Icewind Dale further north is to say Waterdeep is also much further north (along with the whole rest of the map). If I were allowed to ignore all canon I could fix everything (add a bit more time to the day, lose some ocean, stretch things here or there) but the main thing I would have to completely ignore and overwrite would be that Waterdeep is at 45º. For Ten Towns to be above 60º would mean that the two would be over a thousand miles apart, and that screws up virtually all other canon in the setting (because every map would have to be expanded to illustrate that). You'd need a planet twice the size of Earth that rotates at about half the speed (I'm no rocket scientist, but that makes sense to me). Toril already has a mass inconsistency because its supposed to be 12% larger (which I've already proven is impossible with the maps we have) and that effects gravity. If we throw that out the window then we can say Torillians are like John Carter when they are on Earth. No wonder Ed is afraid of Elminster when he visits - the guy can crush rocks with his bare hands. 
And if I remove some map terrain (which you claim isn't canon), then that would increase the distance between longitude lines along the equator. If I add in the fallacious 12% size increase the same thing happens - the distance between lines GROWS. You cannot add more lines (or take any away) without effecting time in the Realms. Any of that I do increases the distance between latitude lines as well, which means that tens towns would actually MOVE SOUTH by degrees, because it must remain between 500-700 miles away from Waterdeep.
Hmmmm... some quick math (because I just thought of it). If we say that 700 miles = 15º on Toril, that would mean the planet was only 16800 miles at the equator. Just a cute lil' 2/3 the size of Earth.
"Its a small world after all"  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Jan 2013 01:48:01 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 02:06:44
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
A source does not have to have anything "happen" in it to be canon. By that logic, ANY non-novel sourcebook would not be "canon". To quote that WotC link: "If it happened in a novel or in a game product— any part of the FORGOTTEN REALMS canon— it happened. We aren’t going to ask you to buy a copy of The Grand History of the Realms then throw it away. Every detail ever published on this massive setting is still there, is still a part of the history of this living, breathing world. We may have a hundred years’ worth of distance from it, but it happened, and all that history will continue to inform authors, game designers, players, and DMs as they continue to explore the FORGOTTEN REALMS world."
One does not have to be a genious to realize that an offical TSR/WotC source, regardless of what it contains IS canon.
No that's not right. Something has to happen in the source to be canon. So a game source book that describes in-world events is canon, but a sculpture of Drizzt in a convention hall depicting Drizzt with a particular color sash is not canon; instead, it's a art piece based on the setting.
I'm not quite sure your comparison works.
For one, the FRIA features maps -- much like a canon FR sourcebook has maps -- detailing specific regions of the canon Realms. How is the FRIA -- which also contains maps that are based on canon Realmslore -- not considered canon?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 04:38:31
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
That's cool; but it doesn't really make sense. How could the FRIA be canon? Nothing 'happens' in it...
The FRIA is more like a art piece or coffee-table book which accompanies a popular fiction series; a companion piece for fans, but not 'part of the world'.
The links I provided illustrate this pretty well, especially the quote from Athans, where he pretty much defines what canon means, as it pertains to the Forgotten Realms.
Maybe you'd better post the link your reading from, because I don't see anythig like that on your link.
Also, your logic means that no FR maps are canon, because nothing happens on them. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 04:40:50
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| Source books also contain illustrations. Sage, if WotC put up an image of a FR character on their web site (perhaps of a blue, purple, or grey skinned drow), in your opinion, would that image be Canon? |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 04:43:53
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@Markustay
The Mercaptor projection of Earth that hangs above my monitor indicates that Greenland is quite a bit larger than Australia...
Does that mean that Greenland is bigger than Australia? |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 05:12:19
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quote:
Markustay
Toril already has a mass inconsistency because its supposed to be 12% larger (which I've already proven is impossible with the maps we have) and that effects gravity.
Of course, Toril might be less dense than Earth. Toril might have significantly fewer heavy elements ... although I doubt it, given the preponderance of lead, gold, iron, and heavy metals (adamantium?) found in the crust. Toril might contain immense hollow pockets (far more than just the Underdark, even if it does span continents). For all we know, magic and the Weave somehow permeates and affects the gravity of the entire planet. The fundamental physical laws and constants of electricity differ between these two worlds, so it seems unwise to assume the laws and constants of gravity must be identical. Ao or some other deity might have created or continue to maintain conditions on Toril through their divine powers. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 05:20:08
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As a Forgotten Realms game designer, I can tell you quite definitively that Realms maps are canon.
Furthermore, Markustay's maps are so well regarded by many of us, that his suggested alterations are often incorporated into the official maps as they are updated (thus making his work canon). |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 05:21:04
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Source books also contain illustrations. Sage, if WotC put up an image of a FR character on their web site (perhaps of a blue, purple, or grey skinned drow), in your opinion, would that image be Canon?
If it has FR Logo and approved by owner of FR at the time, yes it would be canon.
If two weeks later an FR article that says such Drow does not exist, then that becomes canon. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 05:39:11
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My apologies to Markus if he interpreted my questions as insulting. And I certainly didn't want to derail this scroll with yet another battle of canons. Canon is canon; accept, reject, and define it as you will ... anything which wavers from Wizbro's official canon is categorically non-canon - but who (outside of Wizbro) really cares and how does that affect timezones in Faerûn?
My habit is to challenge assumptions, question the validity and sources of data, and demand demonstrable proof before I am willing to accept facts. Markus is, in my mind, a foremost authority on FR maps and geography. |
[/Ayrik] |
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JohnLynch
Learned Scribe
Australia
243 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 05:40:53
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Frankly I don't understand the point of arguing if something is canon.
Given Markus doesn't work for WotC, his work basically amounts to "Based on all the sources this is the most likely way it works." That is, of course, until such time as WotC does incorporate Markus's work into official product making it canon ;)
As fans we can either say "This looks good to me and will make a valuable addition to our campaigns" or "I do not think I will be using this in my campaign at this time."
I don't understand how arguing about if the FR Atlas is canon contributes to this discussion.
Speaking for me, I've saved the map and I definitely plan on utilizing it in any FR campaigns I run in the future. Although with that said, how many timezones are in Faerun? Because there appears to be two (which are right on the extremes). So teleporting players seem to be unaffected by the time difference (given the lack of precise time measurements) unless they're teleporting right on dusk or dawn or teleporting to locations beyond Faerun.
That said I could see sages confused by the time differences and creating portals that "correct" the difference so that they're actually traveling in time as well as space (of course, they'd never know unless they tried doing a Sending to themselves or someone nearby). It could cause confusion for scryers. Although given portal travel isn't widespread it would probably not pop up very often. Although could make for an interesting adventure hook. |
DM of the Realms: A blog for my Forgotten Realms adventures. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 08:37:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Source books also contain illustrations. Sage, if WotC put up an image of a FR character on their web site (perhaps of a blue, purple, or grey skinned drow), in your opinion, would that image be Canon?
This, again, isn't a valid comparison. Most illustrations are open to artistic whims, as we've long known, and rarely reflect actual canon elements.
You can't make that argument for maps... which are drawn largely by dedicated in-house Wizards cartographers who are regularly working with designers and other Realmsfolk who craft the canon setting material. These maps have to reflect what's happening in the canon events of the world. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 09:03:18
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Even history in our own world isn't universal canon, people in the present can hardly agree over why they're in wars, let alone what armchair analysts fifty years from now will write and re-write about them.
The Realms is a changing world, a changing product, made by changing teams of authors and designers for a changing market and audience. Yesterday's Realms sometimes just aren't workable anymore. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 13:55:50
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I started out doing this on a lark, and it turns into a debate. 
I agree that the map could be off here or there, because there are slight differences between canon. And by 'slight' I mean hundreds of miles (see my above post concerning the distance between Waterdeep and Ten Towns). However, math is math, and a sphere will not have more then 360º in longitude - its impossible. If you had a slower turning world that would give you more timezones (which is only a meta-gaming reference for US, since most Torillians are oblivious to such things), but it would not add more longitude. We just happen to be lucky enough (or the original mathematicians forced everything to work out that way) to have precisely the same number of time zones as 15º latitude lines, and that's why most world-builders create Earth-sized worlds with the same hours in the day and the same number of days in the year. Once you veer from that you have to do all the computations, and it would take a NASA physicist to get everything correct (probably several if you wanted to get EVERYTHING correct, like density/gravity).
I discussed magical/divine reasons for why Icewind Dale is so cold, but I was really just picking on Drizzt (because I find it enormously fun to do so), but the fact is there are some good scientific ways to explain all of this - unfortunately, it would mean tweaking the lore. I say "the lore" because I think most of the info we would need to alter would be from Realmspace, and that ISN'T canon to The Realms (oddly enough).
If we pushed the planet slightly further away from the primary (the sun), and decreased the axial tilt, we would get a much narrower band of temperate weather, and much larger icecaps at the poles (which the couple of maps that show the poles does indeed indicate). I 'believe'* that that should level-out the tropics to be about the same, which is good.
Does anyone have the physical Realmspace book? My pdf doesn't have the map I recall coming with it. I can't find any size data about Selune in the text (in fact, now that I am looking through it, Slade avoided all 'hard facts'). The weird thing is I remember looking at this just recently, but I can't find a pic of it on the web... I have to dig through my garage - it may be one of the few things I salvaged from the fire. If we are playing with weather patterns I have to factor-in the moon's relative size to Toril.
*I am no scientist, but just changing the axial tilt would alter both the poles AND the tropic zones (making them unbearably hot), which is why I said to also move the planet slightly further out, which offsets the tropics getting too hot and makes the poles even colder (which is good). If all my assumptions here are correct, then the temperate zone should stay fairly Earth-normal, BUT there would be much less of a temperature swing in specific regions from season to season. That would mean The North would never get quite 'hot', even in summer, and the southern part of the heartlands (like the Vilhon Reach) would never get all that cool in the winter. You would maintain the temperature spread from north to south, but it wouldn't alter as much seasonally. All of that actually works quite nicely for the Realms, so hopefully they are reading this discussion and will confer with someone who is a scientist before they do the 5e map, and we can get all our answers. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Jan 2013 14:09:50 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 14:17:51
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Rotation does not matter as far as speed goes, Barsoom has 10 hours a day, they are just longer hours then Earth's. If rotation of Toril was slower and 24 hours used, each hour would be longer then Earth's, rotate faster the hours would be shorter.
The 360 degrees though indeed is standard for global mapping, however another world cold use 720 or even 15. These numbers are a mathematical constructs. 360 is easy to divide by 60, 12, 24, 2, 3, 5, 10 and so on. The reason 360 is used is because it is a long Earth time construct that applies easy when mapping other planets.
Axis tilt clearly would effect climate, other factors also apply, the terrain effects air mass movements, surface cover effect local and regions. Snow covered will tend to stay cold, green cover tends to be temperate, desert tends to be dry.
Yes other views, discussion has occurred that has caused some distractions, however I appreciate the work you have done on this. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 14:27:42
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I have SJR2: Realmspace. The relevant data for Toril is summarized as: "Size E (4,000 to 10,000 miles across), spherical Earth planet with one moon and satellite cluster". For reference: Size D is 1,000 to 4,000 miles across; Size F is 10,000 to 40,000 miles across. The focus of the text is to describe Toril from a spacefaring perspective, treating as a "port" more than as a world.
[Edit: "across" meaning the same thing as "diameter" for spherical worlds; Toril is spherical, but some planets are not.] |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Jan 2013 14:37:49 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 14:30:30
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Thanks - the goodwill is equally appreciated. I can very much understand why so many people are turned off by the Realms - everything becomes an argument. {sigh}
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Rotation does not matter as far as speed goes, Barsoom has 10 hours a day, they are just longer hours then Earth's. If rotation of Toril was slower and 24 hours used, each hour would be longer then Earth's, rotate faster the hours would be shorter.
I thought of that as well, but since this 'chart' is for a DM's reference, so that they can estimate time differentials, its in 'Earth standard' format. Torillians do not use 60-minute hours (or even minutes), so its irrelevant in-game.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
The 360 degrees though indeed is standard for global mapping, however another world cold use 720 or even 15. These numbers are a mathematical constructs. 360 is easy to divide by 60, 12, 24, 2, 3, 5, 10 and so on. The reason 360 is used is because it is a long Earth time construct that applies easy when mapping other planets.
Once again, this chart is for US, not Torillians. I agree that their sages could have completely different math, but considering how many headaches this is giving me in Earth math I really don't even want to think about creating/learning a version of fantasy math (or speak Klingon, for that matter ).
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Axis tilt clearly would effect climate, other factors also apply, the terrain effects air mass movements, surface cover effect local and regions. Snow covered will tend to stay cold, green cover tends to be temperate, desert tends to be dry.
Which is why i think that would be a great way to explain the discrepancies with the climate. The only reason why I point all of this things out NOW is so that the same mistakes do NOT get carried forward into the future.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Yes other views, discussion has occurred that has caused some distractions, however I appreciate the work you have done on this.
Once again, thank you.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 14:37:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
I have SJR2: Realmspace. The relevant data for Toril is summarized as: "Size E (4,000 to 10,000 miles across), spherical Earth planet with one moon and satellite cluster". For reference: Size D is 1,000 to 4,000 miles across; Size F is 10,000 to 40,000 miles across. The focus of the text is to describe Toril from a spacefaring perspective, treating as a "port" more than as a world.
Wow... Slade made some major errors there. 
So the figure of 16,800 at the equator I came to jokingly is still TOO big? Thank goodness none of Realmspace is canon (for FR - it is canon to SJ... so weird). It also says the Tears of Selune appeared 4800 years ago - that would screw-up just about everything, I would imagine (but I would like to hear Ed's take on that).
He also wrote that in the 2e era, s one must wonder why he referenced Leira as still being around? Moving forward, thats something else to consider. Instead of a mistake, we can work with that (and he was aware of the ToT, because he DID reference that).
Are typos canon? I am reading this book (again) right now, and it says Selune eats a lot of fish. I think they meant 'Selunites, but I was tempted to ask Ed why Selune likes fish so much.
EDIT: I just realized, Slade was probably using the Fonstad atlas, which only shows the Faerûturran super continent. If one were to build a world map off of just that, it probably would be fairly close to 10K. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Jan 2013 14:40:05 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 14:53:05
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| A circle/sphere with a diameter of 4,000 to 10,000 miles would have a circumference of 12,566 to 31,416 miles, which would result in 24 equal divisions of 524 to 1,309 miles each. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 15:03:07
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Seriously good work MT...seriously good stuff.
This map is exactly what I've been looking for to make sense of daylight change when teleportation is taken into account.
I'd go off on a tangent here about blowhards...but that would make ME a blowhard. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 15:11:11
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First, I want to say thank you for to everyone, even Hidden Lord - questioning my results makes me a better cartographer (not being snide, I mean that - I work SO much harder when I need to prove a point). Second, somehow I seem to have missed almost an entire page of posts - Sage made two very similar posts, and I read the 1st last night before retiring, and the then saw the 2nd one when I came back on, and thought it was the same post (I blame it all on sage-time!)
So, to address some issues...
@Brian James - THANK YOU, you have no idea what that means to me. Sometimes I feel like I am just spinning my wheels here.
@Ayrik - no worries; as I said above, I prefer to be challenged - it makes me dig through the lore, which is a lot of work, but a labor of love as well. Every time I have to dig for facts I discover some new juicy little tidbit. Concerning gravity - I had gone by an earlier comment that quoted Ed's '12%' figure; I hadn't even considered the Underdark - that's a brilliant observation! Toril can be bigger and weigh the same because there are a LOT more 'empty spaces' within it. Perhaps not enough to offset the 12% mark, but this is fantasy, after all.
@JohnLynch - WELL SAID. This is a(n unofficial) DM reference, nothing more. If you don't like it, don't use it. In fact, I am now tempted to create a 'Sladerized' version of Toril just to see how everything works out.
@Kentinel - even though I've already responded with a quote, I feel I need to explain myself further. I made a joke about Toril's rotational speed based on This Map Ayrik linked to, and I was being a bit of a jerk trying to explain how those Timezones could be possible (because they can't be longitude lines - not with Earth math). It amuses me to think of Khelben Arunsun (and everyone else) saying, "night is falling, quick, grab a hold of something and hang on!" 
@Hidden Lord - "You make me a better man" (perhaps we should date?  ). I tried various projections last night. I had considered posting them all on DeviantART, but that could cause problems. They contained nothing by me except some stretching in GIMP; the art belonged to the FRIA/WotC/ProFantasy and the Grid was one I downloaded from a cartography site. Usually that sort of thing I would put on Photobucket, but PB shrinks everything. lastly, I was informed about how my maps can cause problems (BECAUSE so many people consider them canon), so for me to post so many different projections would just cause a lot of unnecessary confusion. Suffice it to say I tried everything, and it all looked very bizarre, or completely screwed-up other points of reference. For instance, take a look at Evermeet on this map. If I stretched the top part of the map too much, it not only invalidates the canon about Waterdeep being at 45º, but Evermeet becomes frigid cold as well - the very northern tip of it is at a higher latitude then Waterdeep. (I suggest they nudge Evermeet south in 5e - its never been 'quite right' anyway - even Ed has said that).
And thanks to you, I know know that ALT + 167 is a 'º' symbol. I used to just C&P it, but I was using it so much I just figured out where the hell it was. That can go in my 'mental library' with ALT + 150 (û) and ALT + 147 (ô) (for those rare times when I need to type 'Murghôm). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Jan 2013 15:12:25 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Jan 2013 : 15:21:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
I'd go off on a tangent here about blowhards...but that would make ME a blowhard.
LOL - sometimes I think the majority of us here at CK are blowhards, myself definitely included. We just prefer the term 'grognard' instead. 
That is what happens when you get intelligent people together - they argue about every little thing (see any episode of Big Bang Theory for examples). I used to have a lot of friends that just listened to me talk and excepted everything I said (non-gaming friends), but then I realized I wasn't learning a godamn thing because I wasn't being challenged. Where would the world be without all the Martin Luthers?
You know when I think I became a 'diehard fanboi' of the Realms? Sometime during the period when Lord Karsus and I would argue over every little point at the WotC boards. I think of him and I as good friends, yet we'd fight ('heatedly debate') constantly. Thats what friends should do - challenge us to be better. Because I was constantly pouring over the sourcebooks to find evidence to support my arguments, I fell in love with FR.
For me, being an FR fan was not 'love at first sight', it was more like kismet. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 09 Jan 2013 15:24:09 |
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Time Zones
