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Icewolf
Learned Scribe
USA
214 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 21:49:14
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I know I tend to ask off the wall questions, and I plan to keep my streak going 
I am currently designing the main 'villain' in my campaign. Now, seeing as how my players are usually 'smite-aholics' (You'd be amazed at how many ways there are to gain Smite Evil.)
Anyhow, My question is: If someone is dominated (Planning to use the Epic Spell: Enslave) do their actions affect their alignment. For instance, this 'villain' was originally CG. Evil Wizard A enslaves him, forcing him to go to a village full of old women, kids, and three legged puppies, and kill them all. (For instance) Would this shift the enslaved guy's alignment to evil?
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 21:56:44
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| I would say that the victim of the compulsion spell's aligment would not change because they are not willfully committing evil acts. |
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 21:57:13
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Depends on how long he was killing 3 legged puppies. If it was only a little while, say a year or so, I would put him into the realm of Neutral. If the poor enslaved bugger has been at it for a decade, he has probably been transformed into an evil guy.
But depending on the guy's mental fortitude he could still be neutral after a decade. No matter, I would have him lose his good alignment though.
Another option to keep him from having an evil alignment is have the poor sap develop a spit personality, an evil over personality that is controlled by the spell enslave, and a small part of him that retains a little core of goodness hiding in the back corner, coming out to haunt his dreams with scenes of peace and beauty. And this little core of goodness gives him that neutral alignment. |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 22:01:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
I would say that the victim of the compulsion spell's aligment would not change because they are not willfully committing evil acts.
I partially disagree. Participating in evil unknowingly would probably not change a guy's alignment, but participating, even under duress, means the person IS commiting the act. It might not make him EVIL but it will prevent him from being GOOD.
I see evil as staining the soul, and being part of an evil act, whether willing or no, takes a little of your goodness away.
It should make an atonement much easier if the compulsion is fought. |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 21 Feb 2006 : 22:46:36
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Some guidence from 2nd, not sure if it translated to 3rd.
"If the paladin commits an evil act while enchanted or controlled by magic, he loses his paladin status until he can atone for the deed. "
It follows that any under complusion that commits an Evil act is tainted. To a lessor degree perhaps, as in not losing class skills. Clearly something to atone for once free, non divine classes I do not think would be subject to spell atonement, but some DMs clearly could require it. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2006 : 00:57:46
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In a past Solo-Evil campaign, the assassin (he had some secondary characters) has to find and kill a paladin.
To my surprise, he got the idea to have him dominated first, then he would force it to do some horrible things (I'll keep horryfing details for me) then kill it easily because he has lost all his divine abilities.
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Edited by - Skeptic on 22 Feb 2006 00:58:18 |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2006 : 01:34:56
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hahahaha that is ingenius!
haha
its true they do have to atone for grievous sins before they can use their abilities again |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Sarta
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 06:03:53
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I read not just one, but two questions in your initial post:
1. Would a dominated individual's alignment shift to evil if forced to commit evil acts?
2. How do I over-come the challenge of my players' over-use of smite evil?
1. It will depend on how the individual responds to the domination:
If they fight and regret each action, they remain good (even if they may lose paladin powers and such from participating in these deeds). What's more fun to throw at your pc's than a suprise attack from a crying npc, who whispers, "I'm sorry" after stabbing a pc in the back and then taking a defensive stance? The first series of the Crying Freeman comic had an excellent example of this.
If they rationalize or blot out the memory of their evil deeds, they've slipped into a greyer realm. They could easily fall into neutral or evil territory due to this. Fletcher's Jekyll and Hyde style example could be seen as fitting into this category.
If after prolonged domination they begin to embrace these evil deeds, they've definitely taken the plunge into full-blown evil. At this point the domination leash could become looser as they begin to improve upon the specific commands of their own free will.
An interesting idea for the campaign may be to have your villain go through all three stages. This npc may become far more of a threat than the wizard who started him on his journey.
2. As far as smite evil goes -- or any other power with limited charges per day that your pc's may have -- there are several other tricks that can be done as a DM to level the playing field a bit:
Vary the number of encounters you throw at them: If they are used to having one or two major encounters per day, toss 6 smaller ones at them. Let them blow their wads on the earlier encounters and then struggle through the later ones. Maybe smiting those orcs in the morning wasn't so smart, considering the ogres they fought in the afternoon and the zombies that attacked them after nightfall. Switch things up on them a bit so that they are hesitant to "waste" all of their smites per day.
Give them multiple opponents to smite: Sure, the arch-villain is deserving of a smite or five once they encounter him, but if he's flanked by two hulking bodyguards, maybe they will be better targets. Don't over-look the use of mirror image -- another power that may make a player hesitant to "waste" a smite. Instead of typical encounters involving an obvious boss and his flunkies, have them encounter groups of equals. Sure they may take one or two down quickly with a salvo of smite evils, but the other 4 are just getting angrier.
Keep them at range through terrain or flight.
At low levels, smite can make a single combat very lop-sided, but I think you'll find that at higher levels it isn't such a game-breaker. The damage of smite doesn't scale as well as the damage of spells. You don't want your players to feel cheated by going out of your way to simply make smite evil useless. The goal is to come up with ways to keep encounters fun and challenging.
Sarta |
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Icewolf
Learned Scribe
USA
214 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 08:24:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarta
I read not just one, but two questions in your initial post:
1. Would a dominated individual's alignment shift to evil if forced to commit evil acts?
2. How do I over-come the challenge of my players' over-use of smite evil?
I didn't mean to ask that. I have plenty of...inventive ways of blocking Smites.
quote:
1. It will depend on how the individual responds to the domination:
If they fight and regret each action, they remain good (even if they may lose paladin powers and such from participating in these deeds). What's more fun to throw at your pc's than a suprise attack from a crying npc, who whispers, "I'm sorry" after stabbing a pc in the back and then taking a defensive stance? The first series of the Crying Freeman comic had an excellent example of this.
If they rationalize or blot out the memory of their evil deeds, they've slipped into a greyer realm. They could easily fall into neutral or evil territory due to this. Fletcher's Jekyll and Hyde style example could be seen as fitting into this category.
If after prolonged domination they begin to embrace these evil deeds, they've definitely taken the plunge into full-blown evil. At this point the domination leash could become looser as they begin to improve upon the specific commands of their own free will.
An interesting idea for the campaign may be to have your villain go through all three stages. This npc may become far more of a threat than the wizard who started him on his journey.
Excellent viewpoint. Said villain has been resisting the spell for a couple centuries now. In my case, the archvillain is a wizard. (The party needs to learn a LITTLE humility. Last session, they were sitting in a bar, complaining about how mages were "too easy" I figure if they know what a wizard is capable of, they'll change their tune. 
And for your suggestions for anti-smite tactics, I already had ideas for most of those. Though, I will admit, using Mirror Image to burn through smite attempts had escaped me.
Umm...If you get any packages from my players, check to make sure they aren't ticking before you open it, ok?
And, in a related note, if anyone needs an epic wizard, let me know. I have a level 50 wizard/archmage built, spell selections and all. It's all core though, considering I've been away from my books. (The SRD is a wonderful thing!) When I regain access to the rest of my library, I'll certainly, make him completely realms-ified.
Thanks be to ye, for all the responses, my fellow scribes.
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Volo
Seeker
Canada
58 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 10:25:55
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| I'm personally of the opinion that if you don't /want/ to do it, even if you're /forced/ to do it, you're not changing your alignment. I mean, in Canada, legally, if you are forced to commit a crime by someone, say, they have your son out in the car at gunpoint and make you go in and rob a corner store, you aren't guilty of the robbery by reason of extenuating circumstances. And I don't know about you, but being physically/magically /compelled/ to do something, those circumstances certainly qualify as 'extenuating'! |
Volo's misunderstood. He's not an idiot. He's a FLAMING idiot! |
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Icewolf
Learned Scribe
USA
214 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 11:03:30
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That is what I thought too. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't having one of my 'episodes'. (Player's term for when they die: The DM had an 'episode'.)  |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 01:58:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Icewolf
That is what I thought too. I just wanted to make sure I wasn't having one of my 'episodes'. (Player's term for when they die: The DM had an 'episode'.)
haha in one of my groups we call it something very similar,
in character:
"It was so sad! Melville up and died!"
"How did it happen?"
"He suffered a sudden 'DM-had-an-pisode'-attack"
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"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Icewolf
Learned Scribe
USA
214 Posts |
Posted - 24 Feb 2006 : 05:17:46
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Well, when my players start doing things to disrupt the game, I use the same tactics they do, only better.
I had a player who got a build off the Boards-That-Shall-Not-Be-Named. He used it to cast spells at the party's wizard's level, have the barbarian's attack bonus, and had the skills of the rogue. The others came and asked me to do something about it. When confronted, the guy said something to the effect of 'if they can't make proper characters, it is not his fault.' So...
I brought in my own build. It consisted of my own, personal wizard build. Basically, the munchkin had his hands full dodging a repeating fireball inside of a Resilient Sphere, without a Dex bonus.
I used a Rod of Metamagic: Quicken to Time Stop. I then Delayed a Grease and a Repeating Fireball spell. Then I cast a Resilient Sphere. He couldn't keep his footing, and fell on his posterior. Which left him without his Dex Bonus to his reflex save for the fireball.
I repeated this until I had a deepfried munchkin.
He now keeps his power-gaming in control. |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2006 : 14:26:32
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quote:
Originally posted by IcewolfI didn't mean to ask that. I have plenty of...inventive ways of blocking Smites.
Why try to block it when you can render it useless? Why can't their foe be good? This is where the real fun happens. |
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Icewolf
Learned Scribe
USA
214 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2006 : 23:07:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Mystery_Man
quote:
Originally posted by IcewolfI didn't mean to ask that. I have plenty of...inventive ways of blocking Smites.
Why try to block it when you can render it useless? Why can't their foe be good? This is where the real fun happens.
That was included in the 'block.' Any Paladin in my games ALWAYS Detect Evil before a smite. Not that that actually means they KNOW. Undetectable Alignment is a mysterious thing... |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2006 : 02:20:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Icewolf
quote:
Originally posted by Mystery_Man
quote:
Originally posted by IcewolfI didn't mean to ask that. I have plenty of...inventive ways of blocking Smites.
Why try to block it when you can render it useless? Why can't their foe be good? This is where the real fun happens.
That was included in the 'block.' Any Paladin in my games ALWAYS Detect Evil before a smite. Not that that actually means they KNOW. Undetectable Alignment is a mysterious thing...
So your paladin detects no evil from the Solar from the Seven Mounting Heavens it's as well he shouldn't. Doesn't change the fact that he's about to get the snot whipped out of him. |
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A rather strange question
