| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jul 2006 : 17:50:47
|
| I hope somewhere there's an explanation for the disparity between "Wyrms of the North" and much of the other writing on dragons, which indicates they're far too egomaniacal to worship gods, and the draconic deities introduced in the dubious FOR1 Draconomicon. I would have said: these gods exist, and some dragons worship them, but most regard them as just powerful dragons that aren't rivals to them because they don't live near their territory. |
 |
|
|
Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2006 : 00:31:25
|
Dubious FOR1 Draconomicon? What do you mean by that?
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I hope somewhere there's an explanation for the disparity between "Wyrms of the North" and much of the other writing on dragons, which indicates they're far too egomaniacal to worship gods, and the draconic deities introduced in the dubious FOR1 Draconomicon. I would have said: these gods exist, and some dragons worship them, but most regard them as just powerful dragons that aren't rivals to them because they don't live near their territory.
|
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2006 : 00:50:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Dubious FOR1 Draconomicon? What do you mean by that?
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I hope somewhere there's an explanation for the disparity between "Wyrms of the North" and much of the other writing on dragons, which indicates they're far too egomaniacal to worship gods, and the draconic deities introduced in the dubious FOR1 Draconomicon. I would have said: these gods exist, and some dragons worship them, but most regard them as just powerful dragons that aren't rivals to them because they don't live near their territory.
Faraer feels that it's not really a FR sourcebook and it doesn't represent Dragonkind in FR the way it should. :) I.E. It doesn't have a Realms "feel". |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2006 : 01:31:19
|
Yeah, it was published at a time when TSR was handing out freelance assignments to unqualified people. Nigel Findley did a good job for someone probably on a tight schedule who just had time to read the Old Grey Box, but FOR1 is only superficially rooted in the Realms and just doesn't approach its subjects as good Realms sourcebooks do.
Do you disagree, Brian? I didn't think that observation was controversial. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2006 : 02:36:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Yeah, it was published at a time when TSR was handing out freelance assignments to unqualified people. Nigel Findley did a good job for someone probably on a tight schedule who just had time to read the Old Grey Box, but FOR1 is only superficially rooted in the Realms and just doesn't approach its subjects as good Realms sourcebooks do.
Do you disagree, Brian? I didn't think that observation was controversial.
I think he was just curious as to why you felt the way you did (though I can't be sure).  Anyway, there's nothing wrong with not liking a product, although I can't comment on this sourcebook one way or the other because I haven't read it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2006 : 08:35:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Yeah, it was published at a time when TSR was handing out freelance assignments to unqualified people. Nigel Findley did a good job for someone probably on a tight schedule who just had time to read the Old Grey Box, but FOR1 is only superficially rooted in the Realms and just doesn't approach its subjects as good Realms sourcebooks do.
Do you disagree, Brian? I didn't think that observation was controversial.
I think "realms feeling" is really a subjective concept, but there are definitely times when you sense that a novel or sourcebook (or parts of one) do or do not have it. When you read R.A. Salvatore or Ed Greenwood, you definitely get a sense of "realms feeling." While I happen to like "Council of Blades," a number of realms readers have expressed that they don't think it had a realms feeling to it.
I am an enormous fan of Nigel Findley, so I have a hard time passing judgment on anything that he wrote. I suppose that makes me somewhat biased on this account. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
|
|
|
EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2006 : 08:39:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I hope somewhere there's an explanation for the disparity between "Wyrms of the North" and much of the other writing on dragons, which indicates they're far too egomaniacal to worship gods, and the draconic deities introduced in the dubious FOR1 Draconomicon. I would have said: these gods exist, and some dragons worship them, but most regard them as just powerful dragons that aren't rivals to them because they don't live near their territory.
I'm not sure that it's a disparity at all. The primary difference is that the "Wyrms of the North" articles go into more detail than most other sources of dragons. Because of that, they are more likely to detail a dragon's religious interests. Creatures that live for thousands of years often have varied lives. You could say that they probably live the equivalent of many human lives (in a similar way to elves). It's not surprising that some dragons have connections to deities. Dragons are as varied as humans, thus the tendency to worship can be strong in some and absent in others. It's also possible that the worship of these deities was more popular in past ages, but has diminished in recent times. That would explain why most people have never even heard of Task, Tamara, or Lendys for example. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2006 : 16:43:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Yeah, it was published at a time when TSR was handing out freelance assignments to unqualified people. Nigel Findley did a good job for someone probably on a tight schedule who just had time to read the Old Grey Box, but FOR1 is only superficially rooted in the Realms and just doesn't approach its subjects as good Realms sourcebooks do.
Do you disagree, Brian? I didn't think that observation was controversial.
I am an enormous fan of Nigel Findley, so I have a hard time passing judgment on anything that he wrote. I suppose that makes me somewhat biased on this account.
As am I but mostly because of his Shadowrun material. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2006 : 16:54:51
|
| I think the only problem with the original Draconomicon (which I loved, back in the day) was that it was such an early resource. There wasn't a whole lot of Realms material in print back then (it came out in what, '89 or '90?), so nothing contradicted it then. It's certainly not the fault of the author that dragons of the Realms were taking in a different direction that what he wrote back then. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2006 : 17:04:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Yeah, it was published at a time when TSR was handing out freelance assignments to unqualified people. Nigel Findley did a good job for someone probably on a tight schedule who just had time to read the Old Grey Box, but FOR1 is only superficially rooted in the Realms and just doesn't approach its subjects as good Realms sourcebooks do.
Do you disagree, Brian? I didn't think that observation was controversial.
I am an enormous fan of Nigel Findley, so I have a hard time passing judgment on anything that he wrote. I suppose that makes me somewhat biased on this account.
As am I but mostly because of his Shadowrun material.
I loved Nigel's Shadowrun material... it's one of the main reasons I've gotten on board with the new edition, since he's supposedly going to have some say in the new updates being planned.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2006 : 17:07:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think the only problem with the original Draconomicon (which I loved, back in the day) was that it was such an early resource. There wasn't a whole lot of Realms material in print back then (it came out in what, '89 or '90?), so nothing contradicted it then. It's certainly not the fault of the author that dragons of the Realms were taking in a different direction that what he wrote back then.
It fills a gap, or rather did fill a gap, for draconic lore with a thin-connection to the Realms. We didn't have too much of that back then, so something was better than nothing.
And besides, creative DMs could have always taken the basic bits presented in the first Draconomicon when it was released and incorporated them into their own FR campaigns -- giving them a more suitable Realms basis. I know I did... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2006 : 17:46:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Yeah, it was published at a time when TSR was handing out freelance assignments to unqualified people. Nigel Findley did a good job for someone probably on a tight schedule who just had time to read the Old Grey Box, but FOR1 is only superficially rooted in the Realms and just doesn't approach its subjects as good Realms sourcebooks do.
Do you disagree, Brian? I didn't think that observation was controversial.
I am an enormous fan of Nigel Findley, so I have a hard time passing judgment on anything that he wrote. I suppose that makes me somewhat biased on this account.
As am I but mostly because of his Shadowrun material.
I loved Nigel's Shadowrun material... it's one of the main reasons I've gotten on board with the new edition, since he's supposedly going to have some say in the new updates being planned.
Er?
You talk like he's still going to have plans with the new Srun material..... How's that possible since he's been dead since 1995. :) Did you mean he was going to help? |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2006 : 18:08:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Er?
You talk like he's still going to have plans with the new Srun material..... How's that possible since he's been dead since 1995. :) Did you mean he was going to help?
Yeah, I was wondering that, myself... Didn't Stackpole auction off a role in one of his BTech novels to raise money for the family? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2006 : 18:26:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
I think "realms feeling" is really a subjective concept, but there are definitely times when you sense that a novel or sourcebook (or parts of one) do or do not have it.
There's subjectivity in exactly where you draw the bounds of what's centrally 'Realms' for you, and in which elements are most important for you, so that an author who hits certain points and not others may be judged more Realmsian by one person than the next. But the core of it is, I think, solid and clear, and may only seem otherwise because our language can't describe it exactly and denotatively (I note the way some people put quotation marks around 'feel' used in this sense, even though it's part of the basic meaning of the word).quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
I'm not sure that it's a disparity at all. The primary difference is that the "Wyrms of the North" articles go into more detail than most other sources of dragons. Because of that, they are more likely to detail a dragon's religious interests.
Yes, and we observe that they don't.quote:
Creatures that live for thousands of years often have varied lives. You could say that they probably live the equivalent of many human lives (in a similar way to elves). It's not surprising that some dragons have connections to deities. Dragons are as varied as humans, thus the tendency to worship can be strong in some and absent in others. It's also possible that the worship of these deities was more popular in past ages, but has diminished in recent times. That would explain why most people have never even heard of Task, Tamara, or Lendys for example.
Sounds plausible, and I think something like it should go in the web enhancement.quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's certainly not the fault of the author that dragons of the Realms were taking in a different direction that what he wrote back then.
Unpublished draconic lore, some of which was later published, did exist; if Nigel had got on the phone to Ed and Jeff for days on end and rummaged around in Ed's basement, the book could have been a lot better. But that's an unreasonable expectation for a freelance writing assignment, and as I said, I don't blame him. |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2006 : 18:47:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Er?
You talk like he's still going to have plans with the new Srun material..... How's that possible since he's been dead since 1995. :) Did you mean he was going to help?
Yeah, I was wondering that, myself... Didn't Stackpole auction off a role in one of his BTech novels to raise money for the family?
Not sure, I never followed the Btech line, just Srun. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 02:18:47
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Er?
You talk like he's still going to have plans with the new Srun material..... How's that possible since he's been dead since 1995. :) Did you mean he was going to help?
No, no...
After Nigel died, it was discovered that he'd left plenty of "extra" SR material among his other works... material that had never actually been included along with his other SR published material. The material became the specific property of FanPro a few years ago, as I recall. At that point, FanPro decided that it would be worthwhile including a lot of this material in future Shadowrun sourcebooks. "Nigel's Legacy" they called it on the FanPro boards.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 02:19:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Er?
You talk like he's still going to have plans with the new Srun material..... How's that possible since he's been dead since 1995. :) Did you mean he was going to help?
Yeah, I was wondering that, myself... Didn't Stackpole auction off a role in one of his BTech novels to raise money for the family?
Aye.
I can't remember which role it was though.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 03:41:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Er?
You talk like he's still going to have plans with the new Srun material..... How's that possible since he's been dead since 1995. :) Did you mean he was going to help?
Yeah, I was wondering that, myself... Didn't Stackpole auction off a role in one of his BTech novels to raise money for the family?
Aye.
I can't remember which role it was though.
As I recall, it was the two guys that were helping Kai-Allard Liao in Assumption of Risk. One was named Larry Acuff; the other one's name escapes me. One guy won the auction, but the other guy later matched his price, and so was written into the book.
But... It seems we've launching a threadjack, here.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 06:20:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Er?
You talk like he's still going to have plans with the new Srun material..... How's that possible since he's been dead since 1995. :) Did you mean he was going to help?
Yeah, I was wondering that, myself... Didn't Stackpole auction off a role in one of his BTech novels to raise money for the family?
Aye.
I can't remember which role it was though.
As I recall, it was the two guys that were helping Kai-Allard Liao in Assumption of Risk. One was named Larry Acuff; the other one's name escapes me. One guy won the auction, but the other guy later matched his price, and so was written into the book.
But... It seems we've launching a threadjack, here.
Yes. Let's have everyone unplug their datajacks and get back on task. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 15:10:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
Yes. Let's have everyone unplug their datajacks and get back on task.
*snickers* Datajacks are Shadowrun, not BattleTech.
I'm glad to see steel dragons are going to be in this book. They've always been a particular fave of mine. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2006 : 15:45:01
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
Yes. Let's have everyone unplug their datajacks and get back on task.
*snickers* Datajacks are Shadowrun, not BattleTech.
Actually, there are *datajacks* (not exactly the same -- they're more primitive tech actually) in BT, though they're mainly restricted to those of the Manei Domini.
quote:
I'm glad to see steel dragons are going to be in this book. They've always been a particular fave of mine.
Steel Dragons!
Neato. Come September... it looks like I'll be lining up my first dragon encounter, in over five years, for my players. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 30 Jul 2006 15:49:01 |
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 01:02:01
|
| Is there a PoF style campaign timeline for Threskel/Unther in DoF? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
|
|
|
ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2006 : 02:23:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Is there a PoF style campaign timeline for Threskel/Unther in DoF?
No. But there's one implied.
--Eric |
--
http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
|
|
EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2006 : 02:09:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Wizards have posted a Map from Dragons of Faerun
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/mw/20060801x
That's one of the ones I did that was least altered by the cartographers. (They did a pretty good job on all of them actually). It's almost identical to the original (other than a little bit of extra shading). |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
|
|
|
Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 01:04:19
|
| Eytan or Eric, Will there be any regional maps in DoF? |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
|
|
|
EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 01:53:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Eytan or Eric, Will there be any regional maps in DoF?
Yes - for Unther & Threskel. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 03:52:31
|
Wohoo Eric correcteted the Wand of Orcus Story!
Garath is back to officially destroying the wand of Orcus tearing a massive hole in the Orcus come back story from Planescape (How can Kiaransalee hide the Wand of Orcus when it doesnt even exist)
We also get stats for some YoRD characters!
Interesting Dragons are going to "Find Religion" Eric does this mean that Red, Black and White Dragons who want to get divine powers from Tiamat will have to take Heretic of the Faith due to the 2 step rules? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 03 Aug 2006 05:08:24 |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2006 : 04:28:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Wohoo Eric correcteted the Wand of Orcus Story!
Garath is back to officially destroying the wand of Orcus tearing a massive hole in the Orcus come back story from Planescape (How can Kiaransalee hide the Wand of Orcus
We also get stats for some YoRD characters!
Interesting Dragons are going to "Find Religion" Eirc does this mean that Red, Black and White Dragons who want to get divine powers from Tiamat will have to take Heretic of the Faith due to the 2 step rules?
Sigh,
Great, another item that Eric ignored when it was his own work since he wrote something different in Demihuman Deities, as we've discussed before, Dargoth. Since DD says she hid the wand, not destroyed. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Dragons of Faerun
