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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 17:21:12
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quote:
Yeah, I would have preferred tying the Jaezred Chaulssin to deep dragons rather than shadow dragons, but that ship sailed long ago, with the write-up of Nurvureem.
--Eric
Well, there's nothing stopping us from making them a bunch of half-deep dragons in our games (which I prefer myself). Just 'cause it's canon in the books doesn't mean it has to be so for individual campaigns.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 17:59:25
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| I did see one thing I wasn't entirely keen on: a reference to a half-dragon becoming a dracolich. We've had the entire discussion before, and I know the rules support it, but I'm still of the opinion that only true dragons should be able to become dracoliches. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 18:36:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I did see one thing I wasn't entirely keen on: a reference to a half-dragon becoming a dracolich. We've had the entire discussion before, and I know the rules support it, but I'm still of the opinion that only true dragons should be able to become dracoliches.
*thinks that over*
yep, I agree... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 01:00:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I did see one thing I wasn't entirely keen on: a reference to a half-dragon becoming a dracolich. We've had the entire discussion before, and I know the rules support it, but I'm still of the opinion that only true dragons should be able to become dracoliches.
While I loved the book, I do agree with you on that one. I guess I had forgotten about that after seeing everything else that I did like in the book. |
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Mentalist
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 02:17:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I did see one thing I wasn't entirely keen on: a reference to a half-dragon becoming a dracolich. We've had the entire discussion before, and I know the rules support it, but I'm still of the opinion that only true dragons should be able to become dracoliches.
The rules support it? The Draconomicon says that the dracolich template can be applied to any dragon, did you read an FAQ or something that said it is talking abou the dragon TYPE and not the dragon CREATURE?
Regardless, half-dragons should be able to transform into SOMETHING. It wouldn't be fair for one of it's parents to turn into a lich and the other to turn into a dracolich, and it not be able to ascend to either. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 02:42:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I did see one thing I wasn't entirely keen on: a reference to a half-dragon becoming a dracolich. We've had the entire discussion before, and I know the rules support it, but I'm still of the opinion that only true dragons should be able to become dracoliches.
Eytan and I were well aware of the discussion on these boards before including a dracolich half-dragon. We went back and forth on it, but decided that since they were legal in the rules as written (RAW) violated the spirit of the original design, it would be good to show one as the exception that proves the rule. Moreover, if you look at the section in the Cult of the Dragon chapter that discusses the schisms among the cells, I tried to show the many philosphical/theological differences that could divide the various cells from one another. This brand of heresy is but one example of many and meant to be a very rare form of heresy.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 04:25:45
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I did see one thing I wasn't entirely keen on: a reference to a half-dragon becoming a dracolich. We've had the entire discussion before, and I know the rules support it, but I'm still of the opinion that only true dragons should be able to become dracoliches.
Eytan and I were well aware of the discussion on these boards before including a dracolich half-dragon. We went back and forth on it, but decided that since they were legal in the rules as written (RAW) violated the spirit of the original design, it would be good to show one as the exception that proves the rule. Moreover, if you look at the section in the Cult of the Dragon chapter that discusses the schisms among the cells, I tried to show the many philosphical/theological differences that could divide the various cells from one another. This brand of heresy is but one example of many and meant to be a very rare form of heresy.
--Eric
That works, I suppose. It's not a major complaint, anyway, it's just something I don't really like. I'd prefer it if the RAW didn't support the idea, but they do, so we've got to run with it.
Really, I've only just gotten started on reading the book. It's been a long and busy week for me. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 04:29:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Mentalist
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I did see one thing I wasn't entirely keen on: a reference to a half-dragon becoming a dracolich. We've had the entire discussion before, and I know the rules support it, but I'm still of the opinion that only true dragons should be able to become dracoliches.
The rules support it? The Draconomicon says that the dracolich template can be applied to any dragon, did you read an FAQ or something that said it is talking abou the dragon TYPE and not the dragon CREATURE?
Regardless, half-dragons should be able to transform into SOMETHING. It wouldn't be fair for one of it's parents to turn into a lich and the other to turn into a dracolich, and it not be able to ascend to either.
I don't know the rules off the top of my head (rules aren't my gig), but I believe it says any creature of the dragon type can become a dracolich -- and half-dragons are of the dragon type.
I've nothing against half-dragons becoming powerful undead, even regular or variant liches. I'm just of the opinion that only true dragons should be able to become dracoliches.
But Eric's explanation does work for me; I can see different Cult cells interpreting the issue in different ways. And that offers the possibility for much fun, as they "debate" the issue.  |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 07:35:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mentalist
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I did see one thing I wasn't entirely keen on: a reference to a half-dragon becoming a dracolich. We've had the entire discussion before, and I know the rules support it, but I'm still of the opinion that only true dragons should be able to become dracoliches.
The rules support it? The Draconomicon says that the dracolich template can be applied to any dragon, did you read an FAQ or something that said it is talking abou the dragon TYPE and not the dragon CREATURE?
Regardless, half-dragons should be able to transform into SOMETHING. It wouldn't be fair for one of it's parents to turn into a lich and the other to turn into a dracolich, and it not be able to ascend to either.
I don't know the rules off the top of my head (rules aren't my gig), but I believe it says any creature of the dragon type can become a dracolich -- and half-dragons are of the dragon type.
I've nothing against half-dragons becoming powerful undead, even regular or variant liches. I'm just of the opinion that only true dragons should be able to become dracoliches.
But Eric's explanation does work for me; I can see different Cult cells interpreting the issue in different ways. And that offers the possibility for much fun, as they "debate" the issue.
Some within the cult would consider it a heresy, but others will follow the leader quite strongly. Also, the ritual to become a half-dragon dracolich was lost until it was dug up recently. Kalzareinad is a god of secrets, so it's not surprising that he is associated with something like this. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 17:24:27
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Wow. I really like the book. Lots of useful stuff and lore.
I just have two questions.
1) Powers of Faerun also talk about the Unther region, and they talk about the power struggles and also mention the Banites. The book also has the Shussel folk returning to open a new front against Mulhorand. That event is early in 1374. Dragons is set after the Rage of Dragons, and while it has more info on Tiamat, Tchazzar, and Threskel's machinations, it doesn't say anything about the Shussel folk. Is the earlier supplement (Powers) more current than the later supplement (Dragons)? (I know, it's kinda nitpicking, but the Dragon book has much more intrigue and behind the scene info than the other, but the missing consistancy bothered me.)
2) There is a chapter on the Church of Tiamat, and another on the cult, and that is great. But there are only a few paragraphs mentioned here and there on Bahamut's group. I would've liked more info on them and their interaction, goals, intrigues, etc with the rest of Faerun. Aside from the conflict in Vaasa and the "gotta get them all" race for the meteors/eggs (in which Tiamat gets at least half) there just isn't that much there. I would've liked to maybe see a WE on them, but Kuje reported that there will be a 32 pager on something else. Would there be anything in the future in the works for Bahamut?
thanks
Mkhaiwati |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 19:07:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
Wow. I really like the book. Lots of useful stuff and lore.
I just have two questions.
1) Powers of Faerun also talk about the Unther region, and they talk about the power struggles and also mention the Banites. The book also has the Shussel folk returning to open a new front against Mulhorand. That event is early in 1374. Dragons is set after the Rage of Dragons, and while it has more info on Tiamat, Tchazzar, and Threskel's machinations, it doesn't say anything about the Shussel folk. Is the earlier supplement (Powers) more current than the later supplement (Dragons)? (I know, it's kinda nitpicking, but the Dragon book has much more intrigue and behind the scene info than the other, but the missing consistancy bothered me.)
They aren't inconsistent. The return of the Shussel-folk wasn't relevant for this book as it was focused on dragons and dragon-related organizations.
quote:
2) There is a chapter on the Church of Tiamat, and another on the cult, and that is great. But there are only a few paragraphs mentioned here and there on Bahamut's group. I would've liked more info on them and their interaction, goals, intrigues, etc with the rest of Faerun. Aside from the conflict in Vaasa and the "gotta get them all" race for the meteors/eggs (in which Tiamat gets at least half) there just isn't that much there. I would've liked to maybe see a WE on them, but Kuje reported that there will be a 32 pager on something else. Would there be anything in the future in the works for Bahamut?
Nonething planned that I know of, but never say never. That said, there are the Sisters of Essembra and the Talons of Justice, both of which are Bahamut-related organizations. (The former by giving a home for the dragonborn and the latter by directly serving the Platinum Dragon.) The Church of Bahamut is still very small and not nearly so ensconced in the religious traditions of Faerun as is the Church of Tiamat or the Cult of the Dragon.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2006 : 19:35:35
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quote:
They aren't inconsistent. The return of the Shussel-folk wasn't relevant for this book as it was focused on dragons and dragon-related organizations.
I know, that is what I thought. They just were not mentioned in the groups vying for control over Unther (the Thayans and Northern Wizards are mentioned). I guess I find myself wanting something more in the way of a sourcebook for the Old Empires, and these last few books, while providing a lot for that area, are meant to cover other topics. [sigh]
All in all, two minor details that detracted from it, but a lot of good lore and campaign fodder. I really liked it and recommend it to others.
Mkhaiwati
ps thanks for the quick reply  |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 01:12:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Mentalist
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I did see one thing I wasn't entirely keen on: a reference to a half-dragon becoming a dracolich. We've had the entire discussion before, and I know the rules support it, but I'm still of the opinion that only true dragons should be able to become dracoliches.
The rules support it? The Draconomicon says that the dracolich template can be applied to any dragon, did you read an FAQ or something that said it is talking abou the dragon TYPE and not the dragon CREATURE?
Regardless, half-dragons should be able to transform into SOMETHING. It wouldn't be fair for one of it's parents to turn into a lich and the other to turn into a dracolich, and it not be able to ascend to either.
I can see a Half-Dragon becoming a Lich but not a Draco-Lich.
To me and most of my players a Draco-Lich is a True Dragon, not just a creature with the Dragon Type. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 09:38:10
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| While waiting for my Amazon order to arrive and deposit the Dragons of Faerun into my hands, I was wondering if someone already in possession of said tome (or one of the authors) could give a heads up on information in the tome regarding Green Dragons. In my PbeM campaign Ringreemeralxoth, a green dragon from the Snake Wood / Troll Mountains will make an appearance and while DoF might not deal with this specific dragon, lore on Greens might help me in fleshing 'Ring' out a little more... |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2006 : 19:55:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
While waiting for my Amazon order to arrive and deposit the Dragons of Faerun into my hands, I was wondering if someone already in possession of said tome (or one of the authors) could give a heads up on information in the tome regarding Green Dragons. In my PbeM campaign Ringreemeralxoth, a green dragon from the Snake Wood / Troll Mountains will make an appearance and while DoF might not deal with this specific dragon, lore on Greens might help me in fleshing 'Ring' out a little more...
From what I saw in my initial first look, there isn't that type of information. You would be best served with the Draconomicon. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 03:52:55
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| Does the timeline in DOF include dates for specfic events from the Year of Rogue Dragon novels for example the date Ylarphon was razed or the date the Flight of Dragons attacked the Monastry of the Yellow rose? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 05:22:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Mumadar Ibn Huzal
While waiting for my Amazon order to arrive and deposit the Dragons of Faerun into my hands, I was wondering if someone already in possession of said tome (or one of the authors) could give a heads up on information in the tome regarding Green Dragons. In my PbeM campaign Ringreemeralxoth, a green dragon from the Snake Wood / Troll Mountains will make an appearance and while DoF might not deal with this specific dragon, lore on Greens might help me in fleshing 'Ring' out a little more...
There isn't a discussion of the specific habits of different sorts of dragons. As mentioned, the Draconomicon is probably the best source for that. There are specific green dragons mentioned and detailed in the book. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 05:26:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Does the timeline in DOF include dates for specfic events from the Year of Rogue Dragon novels for example the date Ylarphon was razed or the date the Flight of Dragons attacked the Monastry of the Yellow rose?
I think you're out of luck on this one. I have not seen any specific dates yet for events in the trilogy but I have only skimmed/scanned the book so far. |
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Brenigin
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
117 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 09:39:15
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| Don't the novels in that series have dates at the beginning of each chapter? While it might take a re-read to establish dates for particular events, it shouldn't be too hard to work them out. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 03:18:29
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| Does DoF have any details on Maelestor Rex a Black Dragon that appears in Hordes of Dragonspear? Even if its just a entry in the Roll of Dragons |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 04:27:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Does DoF have any details on Maelestor Rex a Black Dragon that appears in Hordes of Dragonspear? Even if its just a entry in the Roll of Dragons
He's in the Appendix; I've not read enough to know if he's elsewhere in the book. It says he's living, he's in the central High Moor, he's ancient, and CR 19. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 04:37:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Does DoF have any details on Maelestor Rex a Black Dragon that appears in Hordes of Dragonspear? Even if its just a entry in the Roll of Dragons
He's in the Appendix; I've not read enough to know if he's elsewhere in the book. It says he's living, he's in the central High Moor, he's ancient, and CR 19.
Thanks
Wooly can you do me a favour?
Can you do a quick scan of the roll of Dragons and tell me if there are any dragons living in the following areas Laughing Hollow, Ardeep Forest, Lizard Marsh, Troll Bark Forest, Forlorn Hills and Misty Forest
Basicly an area bordering the South of Ardeep Forest, West of the High Moor and North of Trollbark Forest |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 15 Aug 2006 04:38:08 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 01:02:07
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I little box of FR goodness just turned up on my door step
I now have Dragons of Faerun, Mysteries of the Moonseas, Swords of Eveningstar to read |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 13:02:51
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A few comments on DoF
Overall I liked it
Favourite part: The paragraph length "Wyrms of the North" entries that detail what the dragons got up to, its pity more dragons werent given the same detail
Stuff that didnt appear in DoF but Id have liked to have seen
Info on Glen (A Dwarven town in Mistledale where you can buy dragon eggs)
A PoF style timeline for the Year of Rogue Dragons would have been nice (Including stuff that happaned outside the novels)
A PGTF regional write ups for Dragonborn (Admitedly a short one as they havent been around for long)
F&P style write ups for other Bahumut and other Dragon deities including Initiate feats for the Dragon deities
PS How did Sammaster manage to raise Algashon as a Banelich?
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 17 Aug 2006 01:13:19 |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 01:26:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
PS How did Sammaster manage to raise Algashon as a Banelich?
Well the fact that he isn't stated, the 3.5ed update and the relative powers of the other chosen...
It is possible that Sammaster is an epic character and might even be able to cast epic spells. He might also have levels in more than one level, likely cleric given the nature of his organization. (Which god is up for grabs? Bane seems like a likely canadate given the nature of the group and their natural foes. Sammaster doesn't need to know it was Bane as Bane could be granting spells as the Death Dragon/Dragon of Death. Myrkul is another choice that fits.)
Just some spare thoughts... |
Ed Greenwood! The Solution... and Cause of all the Realms Problems! |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 01:36:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
PS How did Sammaster manage to raise Algashon as a Banelich?
Well the fact that he isn't stated, the 3.5ed update and the relative powers of the other chosen...
It is possible that Sammaster is an epic character and might even be able to cast epic spells. He might also have levels in more than one level, likely cleric given the nature of his organization. (Which god is up for grabs? Bane seems like a likely canadate given the nature of the group and their natural foes. Sammaster doesn't need to know it was Bane as Bane could be granting spells as the Death Dragon/Dragon of Death. Myrkul is another choice that fits.)
Just some spare thoughts...
Banelichs have only ever been created by Bane himself and only to specfic priests (35 in total) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 01:43:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
PS How did Sammaster manage to raise Algashon as a Banelich?
Well the fact that he isn't stated, the 3.5ed update and the relative powers of the other chosen...
It is possible that Sammaster is an epic character and might even be able to cast epic spells. He might also have levels in more than one level, likely cleric given the nature of his organization. (Which god is up for grabs? Bane seems like a likely canadate given the nature of the group and their natural foes. Sammaster doesn't need to know it was Bane as Bane could be granting spells as the Death Dragon/Dragon of Death. Myrkul is another choice that fits.)
Just some spare thoughts...
Banelichs have only ever been created by Bane himself and only to specfic priests (35 in total)
I'd say that Sammy raised Algashon as a lesser (relatively speaking) form of undead, and that Bane himself intervened to make Algashon a banelich. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 02:45:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
A few comments on DoF
Overall I liked it
Glad to hear it.
quote:
PS How did Sammaster manage to raise Algashon as a Banelich?
There are many ways to explain this. I left it vague to give future designers and DMs more room.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 03:26:55
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| Eric any chance you can do a Timeline WE (ideally a Timeline similar to the ones found in Powers of Faerun) for YoRD? Id particularly like to see dates for the events you added in DoF ie when Leilon, Callidyrr, Luskan, Saelmur, Mintar, Mirabar, Uluvin where attacked by Dragons etc |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Mr. Wilson
Seeker
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 17 Aug 2006 : 09:02:55
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Just a quick question, one that I hope I haven't overlooked anywhere. What exactly does the Tree-Gem (or is it, Gem-Tree, I don't have my book with me right now)look like?
I would like to use it in a dream for one of my player's, but I'm unsure what kind of gem it is, etc, etc, etc. I could make it up, but I want to go by canon if it's available. |
"I've got a plan..."- Dan
"Nothing good has ever come after those four words." - Jesse |
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Dragons of Faerun
