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Mentalist
Acolyte
12 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 11:57:59
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| Uh, by the way, I seem to remember that there a yellow dragon in some 2E book, like the Monstrous Compendium or Draconomicon or something? I also heard that the Sand Dragon in Sandstorm is supposed to be a re-make of the old yellow dragon, can anyone confirm this? Lastly, is the Sand Dragon mentioned in DoF because the yellow dragon was a species in the Realms, or is it included simply because every other monster from the core sourcebooks automatically become known species in the Realms(ex. planar dragons)? |
Edited by - Mentalist on 08 Aug 2006 15:26:47 |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 19:54:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Mentalist
Uh, by the way, I seem to remember that there a yellow dragon in some 2E book, like the Monstrous Compendium or Draconomicon or something? I also heard that the Sand Dragon in Sandstorm is supposed to be a re-make of the old yellow dragon, can anyone confirm this? Lastly, is the Sand Dragon mentioned in DoF because the yellow dragon was a species in the Realms, or is it included simply because every other monster from the core sourcebooks automatically become known species in the Realms(ex. planar dragons)?
The yellow dragon may get some updating in the near future. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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FireKnife
Acolyte
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2006 : 22:45:43
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| Just picked up the book and have been skimming through it. Well done! Lots of lore and useful goodies. My only gripe was that on two of the dragons it says drow dragon great wyrm. Can we be a little more specific. Deep dragon or shadow dragon that dwells in drow form or a unique dragon. maybe include it in a we. Book is worth every penny. Art work is great as well. I love the cover, the poor female looks terrified and in awe. Novel tie ins were done well. loved how the small update for wearer in purple was done. Saved space for lore!!! Pass that one to other design teams.Well that is just my two cents. |
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Mentalist
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 02:02:11
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quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
quote:
Originally posted by Mentalist
Uh, by the way, I seem to remember that there a yellow dragon in some 2E book, like the Monstrous Compendium or Draconomicon or something? I also heard that the Sand Dragon in Sandstorm is supposed to be a re-make of the old yellow dragon, can anyone confirm this? Lastly, is the Sand Dragon mentioned in DoF because the yellow dragon was a species in the Realms, or is it included simply because every other monster from the core sourcebooks automatically become known species in the Realms(ex. planar dragons)?
The yellow dragon may get some updating in the near future.
Really?! I hope so, that'd be great.  |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:31:29
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quote:
Originally posted by FireKnife
Just picked up the book and have been skimming through it. Well done! Lots of lore and useful goodies. My only gripe was that on two of the dragons it says drow dragon great wyrm. Can we be a little more specific. Deep dragon or shadow dragon that dwells in drow form or a unique dragon. maybe include it in a we. Book is worth every penny. Art work is great as well. I love the cover, the poor female looks terrified and in awe. Novel tie ins were done well. loved how the small update for wearer in purple was done. Saved space for lore!!! Pass that one to other design teams.Well that is just my two cents.
Drow-dragons are drow-shadow dragons. They are desecribed in a sidebar. There will be much more on them in the web enhancement.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 03:37:57
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| Is there anything about Deep Dragons in the book? |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 04:28:52
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Is there anything about Deep Dragons in the book?
Not really, unfortunately. We only had so much room. There are few listed in the big old Table of Dragons though.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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FireKnife
Acolyte
USA
48 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:06:05
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| Thanks for pointing out the side bar, I guess I got a little too eager in my reading. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:18:01
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quote:
Not really, unfortunately. We only had so much room. There are few listed in the big old Table of Dragons though.
--Eric
Shame. I always liked their tie to Drow (moreso than to Shadow Dragons), but I understand the limited room issue.
Thanks for answering. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:30:50
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
Not really, unfortunately. We only had so much room. There are few listed in the big old Table of Dragons though.
--Eric
Shame. I always liked their tie to Drow (moreso than to Shadow Dragons), but I understand the limited room issue.
Thanks for answering. :)
Yeah, I would have preferred tying the Jaezred Chaulssin to deep dragons rather than shadow dragons, but that ship sailed long ago, with the write-up of Nurvureem.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:37:17
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quote:
Yeah, I would have preferred tying the Jaezred Chaulssin to deep dragons rather than shadow dragons, but that ship sailed long ago, with the write-up of Nurvureem.
--Eric
Really? That's awesome.
If I ever decide to run a game and use them, I won't feel so bad about changing "canon" now. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Mentalist
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 05:38:33
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
[quote]
Shame. I always liked their tie to Drow (moreso than to Shadow Dragons), but I understand the limited room issue.
Thanks for answering. :)
Yeah, I would have preferred tying the Jaezred Chaulssin to deep dragons rather than shadow dragons, but that ship sailed long ago, with the write-up of Nurvureem.
--Eric
I liked the deep dragons and their ties to the drow as well, it really became aparent when you could qualify for the Arachne PrC by being a deep dragon. Plus, I saw half-deep dragon half-drow as an answer to draegloths, who as characters I usually end up despising. Yeah, I think the Jaezred Chaulssin having relations with deep dragons would have made alot more sense. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 12:36:10
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Anything about Song Dragons in there?
And wasn't the Yellow Dragon updated (statwise at least) in the (um...not sure if this is the right name and can't check since my home computer won't connect to the net. GRRR) Dragon Compendium. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Brakkart
Acolyte
United Kingdom
17 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 17:43:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
And wasn't the Yellow Dragon updated (statwise at least) in the (um...not sure if this is the right name and can't check since my home computer won't connect to the net. GRRR) Dragon Compendium.
Yes that's right, the Yellow, Orange and Purple Dragons were statted up for 3.5E in the Dragon Compendium Vol 1 by Paizo. |
Read my blog at: http://tauntonian.blogspot.com Here I post ramblings, book reviews, song lyrics and assorted weirdness.
Check out my "Rise of the Snakemen" Forgotten Realms Story Hour. http://www.enworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=100196 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 14:19:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
And wasn't the Yellow Dragon updated (statwise at least) in the (um...not sure if this is the right name and can't check since my home computer won't connect to the net. GRRR) Dragon Compendium.
The yellow dragons that appeared in the Dragon Compendium Volume One aren't quite the same as the yellow dragons that appeared in the original Draconomicon. Realms yellow dragons were desert dragons that competed with brass, blue, and brown dragons for their domains, while the yellow dragons in the Dragon Compendium are from an old Dragon Magazine article and are native to more temperate climates and rivers.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 14:30:28
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| BTW, I've been digging through this book for days, and it is absolutely awesome. Great work guys! Between this book and Power of Faerun, the Old Empires looks to be a very interesting place these days. And good work on working in the Dragonfall War, especially now that its gone from something that I cringed at as a marketing ploy to something that actually catches my interest now. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 14:33:02
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If I want that book anytime soon I need to drive 1 1/2 hours and spend almost the same cost of the book on gas to get it!  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 14:36:09
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I also don't understand why they redid the brown dragon in For 3rd Ed. but not the yellow...
The Sandstorm dragon is not the yellow dragon and as far as I know the yellow has never been reprinted...
another casual question is why hasn't the Depp Dragon been refered to as the purple/violet/mauve dragon ?  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 18:24:14
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
If I want that book anytime soon I need to drive 1 1/2 hours and spend almost the same cost of the book on gas to get it!
I almost cringed when I saw another desert themed dragon show up rather than a conversion of a yellow dragon, or at least something else that had existed previously. Perhaps yellow dragons ARE better served not being desert based, but that isn't how they were presented in Realms material.
How many uber predators can a desert support anyway? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 18:27:48
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I was wondering if the information on the dwarves from Mirabar was inspired at all by Bruenor's rabble rousing in the Hunter's Blades trilogy. While I can see several of the dwarves leaving as they did, I also imagine a lot would be too proud to leave behind mines and tunnels they have claimed for quite a while, so it made a lot of sense to me.
Also, this is why I love books like this one. I don't know who did what, and I know Eytan must have done a wonderful job since the book is consistantly good throughout, but whenever Eric Boyd is attatched to a project, he manages to advance Realmlore in varoius place, even if its only tangentially related to the main topic.
Oh, and, long live Tchazzar and the return of the dragons that he ate that no one noticed were still listed as alive in the FRCS, and long live Eric Boyd for explaining all of this! |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 18:32:32
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJRI almost cringed when I saw another desert themed dragon show up rather than a conversion of a yellow dragon, or at least something else that had existed previously. Perhaps yellow dragons ARE better served not being desert based, but that isn't how they were presented in Realms material.
How many uber predators can a desert support anyway?
correct me if I'm wrong but the brown dragon was supposed to be found only in the Raurin region...and the yellows in the anauroch...
I think the "desert dragons" (blue, brass, yellow, brown) all have a few things in common: lower metabolism than other dragons, much larger territories and a pseudo-mystical environmental adaptations like "brass dragons getting nourishment from dew drops"...actually the yellow is an exception...it hunts like an ant-lion...digging deep pits and hiding in the bottom...to it's metabolism is probably even less...
I always liked the yellow dragon...it made more sense than the brown does...without the wings to me the brown was more like a runt than a true dragon... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 18:44:41
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJROh, and, long live Tchazzar and the return of the dragons that he ate that no one noticed were still listed as alive in the FRCS, and long live Eric Boyd for explaining all of this!
i do like Tchazzar and love when canon loopholes are tightened but I always thought the Tchazzar/Chessentia/Tiamat/Unther soap opera was kind of convoluted  Tiamat dies then lives then dies then eats 3 dragons then lives, etc.
In hindsight I wonder if the original designers would have made the Unther/Mulhorand panthenon canon so bulky and over-complicated? |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Mentalist
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 22:18:58
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
correct me if I'm wrong but the brown dragon was supposed to be found only in the Raurin region...and the yellows in the anauroch...
I think the "desert dragons" (blue, brass, yellow, brown) all have a few things in common: lower metabolism than other dragons, much larger territories and a pseudo-mystical environmental adaptations like "brass dragons getting nourishment from dew drops"...actually the yellow is an exception...it hunts like an ant-lion...digging deep pits and hiding in the bottom...to it's metabolism is probably even less...
I always liked the yellow dragon...it made more sense than the brown does...without the wings to me the brown was more like a runt than a true dragon...
I don't know, the brown dragon is one of the largest evil dragons. It's size kind of makes of for the loss in formidabilty due to flightlessness.
You might add the Rattelyr to that list, another desert dwelling(sort of) dragon, and it derives some of it's sustenance from absorbing sunlight and heat.
I thought it was a real interesting dragon, and I'd like to see more on it like dragon NPC write-ups and a half-rattelyr template, but nothing so far. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 23:57:45
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJRI almost cringed when I saw another desert themed dragon show up rather than a conversion of a yellow dragon, or at least something else that had existed previously. Perhaps yellow dragons ARE better served not being desert based, but that isn't how they were presented in Realms material.
How many uber predators can a desert support anyway?
correct me if I'm wrong but the brown dragon was supposed to be found only in the Raurin region...and the yellows in the anauroch...
I think the "desert dragons" (blue, brass, yellow, brown) all have a few things in common: lower metabolism than other dragons, much larger territories and a pseudo-mystical environmental adaptations like "brass dragons getting nourishment from dew drops"...actually the yellow is an exception...it hunts like an ant-lion...digging deep pits and hiding in the bottom...to it's metabolism is probably even less...
I always liked the yellow dragon...it made more sense than the brown does...without the wings to me the brown was more like a runt than a true dragon...
You are correct, the original "Old Empires" brown dragon was from that region, not Anauroch or anywhere else in Faerun. And while we are at it, I wouldn't mind seeing Dracosphinx 3.5 stats myself . . . |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 00:01:59
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJROh, and, long live Tchazzar and the return of the dragons that he ate that no one noticed were still listed as alive in the FRCS, and long live Eric Boyd for explaining all of this!
i do like Tchazzar and love when canon loopholes are tightened but I always thought the Tchazzar/Chessentia/Tiamat/Unther soap opera was kind of convoluted Tiamat dies then lives then dies then eats 3 dragons then lives, etc.
In hindsight I wonder if the original designers would have made the Unther/Mulhorand panthenon canon so bulky and over-complicated?
While I really liked the book when it first came out (it was one of my favorite Realms accessories because the whole region was "new" and free from any previous serious lore), Old Empires really was firmly in the "cut and paste a Real World culture and add D&D elements" mindset that I'm glad has come and gone in the Realms.
And to give it a little more in the way of positive reaction, at least it cast orcs and their gods as major threats at one point in time, which I liked.
The dragon eating reassurections and wierd magic at least serve to make the whole thing feel a bit more "Realmsian" since there is no reference to it in Babylonian or Summerian mythologies. |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 07:10:58
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I was wondering if the information on the dwarves from Mirabar was inspired at all by Bruenor's rabble rousing in the Hunter's Blades trilogy. While I can see several of the dwarves leaving as they did, I also imagine a lot would be too proud to leave behind mines and tunnels they have claimed for quite a while, so it made a lot of sense to me.
Also, this is why I love books like this one. I don't know who did what, and I know Eytan must have done a wonderful job since the book is consistantly good throughout, but whenever Eric Boyd is attatched to a project, he manages to advance Realmlore in varoius place, even if its only tangentially related to the main topic.
Oh, and, long live Tchazzar and the return of the dragons that he ate that no one noticed were still listed as alive in the FRCS, and long live Eric Boyd for explaining all of this!
If you don't know who did what, I consider the book a big success. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 07:30:06
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I must say I enjoyed my first read-through of this book.
Excellent lore, good updates for DMs on what's been happening dragon-wise in the Realms, references to numerous recent sources (including novels) which I hope will serve to get more gamers into reading the novels, Dragon stats that on first look seem correct and lethal, numerous dragons that are ready to use 'out of the box', lair traps, etc...
I look forward to using this book in my campaign right away.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Mr. Wilson
Seeker
USA
73 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 11:37:54
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Loved this book. Major kudos to those writing it. It fits really well with a campaign I'm running right now, but that's beside the point.
Loved the details, loved the writing. And my friends got a good laugh out of the huge spread of dragons in the back. |
"I've got a plan..."- Dan
"Nothing good has ever come after those four words." - Jesse |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 11 Aug 2006 : 17:11:58
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I like the book, and I've just read it in stores -- I don't even own a copy yet.
I'm especially pleased with the Sisterhood of Essembra and the mention given to critters like the dragonborn (who have reasons given for why no one's seen them until now) and the spawn of Tiamat. And the explanation for why drgons don't rule Faerun anymore was also very enjoyable.
The various dragons of Faerun section was good. I like the idea of PCs joining forces with vicious Nartheling the Fang Dragon atop Umbergoth to fight off a group of beholders (but then, I'm a big fan of the idea mentioned in Lords of Madness, that even enemies might join together against the utter alien evil of abberrations), and Tchazzar makes me feel weak. Hmm, we got an ogre kingdom in Amn, a dragon-ruled kingdom in Chessenta, Obould's orcs in the North... anyone else think that humanity in the Realms is about to face some very interesting times? |
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Dragons of Faerun
