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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
 Posted - 16 May 2005 : 03:39:23
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Now, I like that one  .
Feel free to use it.  |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2005 : 13:47:52
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| Excuse my interruption, if there is an demonic being serving as a paladin, then what about the half breeds which are half-demon, half-human? |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2005 : 14:26:50
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Tiefling and half-fiendish paladins would be more likely, at least in respect to the likelihood of a full-blooded demon paladin.
For the most part though, I think it would greatly depend on the church and deity that the tiefling or half-fiendish paladin devoted him/herself to. For example, Torm may see the value and pure attitude of devotion that a tiefling paladin would demonstrate while serving his faith, however, Lathander might actively discourage half-breeds (especially those of lower planar denizens) from serving among his faithful flock because of his portfolio.
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 16 May 2005 14:29:25 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2005 : 17:41:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Tiefling and half-fiendish paladins would be more likely, at least in respect to the likelihood of a full-blooded demon paladin.
For the most part though, I think it would greatly depend on the church and deity that the tiefling or half-fiendish paladin devoted him/herself to. For example, Torm may see the value and pure attitude of devotion that a tiefling paladin would demonstrate while serving his faith, however, Lathander might actively discourage half-breeds (especially those of lower planar denizens) from serving among his faithful flock because of his portfolio.
Then again, Lathander might allow it -- the tiefling is being "reborn" as a good guy... And it would also serve to show that anyone can overcome their heritage and serve the forces of light... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 01:27:55
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Oh, of course, given Lathander's respect for the process of "rebirth" and "renewal" in objects and places. I just thought perhaps that he might, from time to time, hold an displeasing attitude toward the "impurity" of such forms or places. I was merely assuming that he would see a tiefling paladin as a "tiefling" first, rather than the choice the creature has made to become a paladin. That it would, somehow invalidate his choice regardless... but then, maybe Lathander isn't that discrimating to begin with...
Renewal is renewal after all.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 11:37:54
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Greetings, since Lathander may or may not accept half-breeds as paladins, what about the other Gods such as Illmater, Tyr and Sune as well as Helm, I heard that some half-elves serve as paladins under Helm and Illmater. So will half-breeds of the lower planes such as cambions and also Teiflings be accepted as well?
But if they are accepted by the Gods themselves to serve as their champions of their causes, will the other paladins serving these gods frown or distance themselves from these newly accepted paladins? |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 13:28:34
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Considering the existence of a succubus paladin there's no reason why they shouldn't. Except, of course, that said succubus didn't appear in an FR-publication. But that's splitting hairs if you ask me.
I do, however, have a hard time seeing at least one Tyrran paladin order - the Knights of Samular from the novel Thornhold - accept members of fiendish heritage, considering the way they're portrayed in that book.
As for "evil" creatures becoming paladins, we know that Queen Zaranda of Tethyr is lobbying the church of Torm to declare her former companion, Shield of Innocence, an Orog apprentice paladin, a saint of that church. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
Edited by - Kajehase on 17 May 2005 20:12:21 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 17:43:55
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| I would imagine that except in rare circumstances, just about any deity would accept a follower of any heritage. There would be exceptions (I don't expect to see a fey'ri paladin of Corellon), but I think that any deity would be pleased to have someone of a similar alignment and mindset wanting to serve them. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 21:12:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would imagine that except in rare circumstances, just about any deity would accept a follower of any heritage. There would be exceptions (I don't expect to see a fey'ri paladin of Corellon), but I think that any deity would be pleased to have someone of a similar alignment and mindset wanting to serve them.
Ed has basically said this as well, and it was one of my questions to him actually. Divine casters and lay worshippers can worship any deity as long as thier ethos and the like fits in with that deity. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Blue Sorceress
Learned Scribe
107 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2005 : 22:43:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Oh, of course, given Lathander's respect for the process of "rebirth" and "renewal" in objects and places. I just thought perhaps that he might, from time to time, hold an displeasing attitude toward the "impurity" of such forms or places. I was merely assuming that he would see a tiefling paladin as a "tiefling" first, rather than the choice the creature has made to become a paladin. That it would, somehow invalidate his choice regardless... but then, maybe Lathander isn't that discrimating to begin with...
Renewal is renewal after all.
I'd have to say I can't see Lathander rejecting a tiefling paladin just for being a tiefling. There's nothing about purity in his dogma or his portfolio. I mean, "Strive always to aid, to foster new hope, new ideas and new prosperity for all humankind and its allies" doesn't sound exclusivist at all to me. Likewise, I can't see a deity that "preaches a a doctrine of proactive good works and constant reevaluation of society's traditions and mores" as one who would be unwilling to allow any being that proved itself worthy into the ranks of his paladins.
-Blue |
Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.
I see your walrus and raise you a carpenter |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 04:09:26
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I would imagine that except in rare circumstances, just about any deity would accept a follower of any heritage. There would be exceptions (I don't expect to see a fey'ri paladin of Corellon), but I think that any deity would be pleased to have someone of a similar alignment and mindset wanting to serve them.
Ed has basically said this as well, and it was one of my questions to him actually. Divine casters and lay worshippers can worship any deity as long as thier ethos and the like fits in with that deity.
And on the whole, I agree with what Ed has already established. But I also enjoy reflecting the fact that deities have certain notions about worshippers that go beyond what fits with their ethos and alignment.
What I am suggesting here, is that even a good-aligned deity can have a worshipper with an evil alignment serve him, if that worshipper firmly believes that what he or she is doing is "right" and "just" for his or her people or the place where he or she resides.
Good isn't absolute, and every deity has their own view on what is "good" to them and their worshippers.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 04:12:44
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quote:
I'd have to say I can't see Lathander rejecting a tiefling paladin just for being a tiefling. There's nothing about purity in his dogma or his portfolio. I mean, "Strive always to aid, to foster new hope, new ideas and new prosperity for all humankind and its allies" doesn't sound exclusivist at all to me.
Well, I did say that there might be the possibility that Lathander wasn't as discriminating as I'd just stated. And I don't recall mentioning anything about "purity" being in Lathander's portfolio or dogma. My reference to the "impurity" of certain forms was merely how I would see some of the more powerful among the clergy of Lathander, interpret the potential candidates that come forward wishing to serve. Some mortals would likely allow their human prejudices to play against the wishes of a striving young tiefling who wanted to join the faithful of Lathander.
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The Blue Sorceress
Learned Scribe
107 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 05:08:42
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True. Though any paladin at the temple would recognize the tiefling's potential -that they had been called and were answering- and vouch for them. Paladinhood, or the as-yet-unanswered call, are things other paladins are aware of, and I'd wager any paladin who turned away a fellow paladin of his own deity because he was a tiefling wouldn't be a paladin for very much longer. Ditto for a cleric, though the cleric at least could atone.
Along those same lines, it's not the clergy who choos the paladins, nor even church training that makes them what they are, but a god's call and the paladin's answer. I could very easily see a tiefling paladin of Lathander, who, though rejected by a misguided member of a local temple and so lacked official church or order sponsorship, was still a paladin. Like I said before though, I have trouble seeing how any cleric that was so prejudiced that he turned away a paladin of his own god based on his race would get spells from his god until he'd rectified his error. Eventually I would think he would either have to see his error and recognize the paladin's status or find a new religion better suited to his more exclusive tastes.
-Blue |
Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.
I see your walrus and raise you a carpenter |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2005 : 05:59:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Blue Sorceress
True. Though any paladin at the temple would recognize the tiefling's potential -that they had been called and were answering- and vouch for them. Paladinhood, or the as-yet-unanswered call, are things other paladins are aware of, and I'd wager any paladin who turned away a fellow paladin of his own deity because he was a tiefling wouldn't be a paladin for very much longer. Ditto for a cleric, though the cleric at least could atone.
There's some validity to that, so I won't disagree with you. However, not all paladins are the same. Likely, there are a few paladin types that believe that their faith in their god is something that has to be taken more seriously than any amount of service to another mortal. As such, if a deity believes that a race, or a particular individual would not benefit the preservation and promotion of the deity's values, then likely the particular paladin would accept that and not vouch for such an individual who has "felt the call".
quote:
Along those same lines, it's not the clergy who choos the paladins, nor even church training that makes them what they are, but a god's call and the paladin's answer. I could very easily see a tiefling paladin of Lathander, who, though rejected by a misguided member of a local temple and so lacked official church or order sponsorship, was still a paladin. Like I said before though, I have trouble seeing how any cleric that was so prejudiced that he turned away a paladin of his own god based on his race would get spells from his god until he'd rectified his error. Eventually I would think he would either have to see his error and recognize the paladin's status or find a new religion better suited to his more exclusive tastes.
Again, this is very true. But I think what needs to be defined here is that not all campaigns are run around the traditional model of a D&D game that the core rulebooks establish.
I know that, for my campaigns at least, prominent mortal worshippers in a deity's clergy have at least some say, however slight, in who is permitted to serve among the faithful and where his or her place will be among the god's flock. Now, having said that, I DO believe that for most Powers, the final decison does indeed rest with them. However, not all gods believe or behave in the same way, and the promotion and dedication of a paladin to a faith I feel, should reflect that. But I suppose this also comes from my utilising of alternate rules for allowing paladins who are not exclusively LG. As such, the clergy for the faithful of Bane may indeed accept any and all who worship the Black Tyrant because Bane himself sees the ultimate potential of this "paladin" to further the aims of his domain in Faerun. On the other hand, this same potential paladin, whose original "worship" which was at first believed to be a dedication to Bane, is actually nothing more than bizarre thoughts about law and order. It is a matter of perception. This potential paladin may be turned away from the clergies of powers like Torm or Helm for example, because of the potential paladin's views. And from that, Torm or Helm may not even wish for such an individual to promote their faiths in the Realms.
The issue of paladins and faith in general, for me, should be a rather complicated issue, because faith is not something that is supposed-to-be-easily-defined, and neither are the motives of the gods themselves.
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The Blue Sorceress
Learned Scribe
107 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2005 : 01:04:02
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quote:
There's some validity to that, so I won't disagree with you. However, not all paladins are the same. Likely, there are a few paladin types that believe that their faith in their god is something that has to be taken more seriously than any amount of service to another mortal. As such, if a deity believes that a race, or a particular individual would not benefit the preservation and promotion of the deity's values, then likely the particular paladin would accept that and not vouch for such an individual who has "felt the call".
My problem with that is that it doesn't take into account the individual personality of our tiefling in question. I'm not saying that a significant number of tieflings would be appropriate, just that even if the vast majority of a race is wrong for the job, there can still be that individual who is suited to be a paladin of Lathander or whoever. Personality and individual nature, at least for me, will always override any accidents of birth in terms of capacity for paladinhood or clerical position.
To me, part of what being a paladin is has always been the recognition of capacity for goodness in an individual as much as the actual presence of evil. The latter is a deity-given ability, the former is part training and nature. I can see some being initially suspicious, but I have trouble seeing good men and women denying another person who earnestly wishes to serve the chance to prove himself a loyal and capable member of the church simply because of his race.
quote:
I know that, for my campaigns at least, prominent mortal worshippers in a deity's clergy have at least some say, however slight, in who is permitted to serve among the faithful and where his or her place will be among the god's flock. Now, having said that, I DO believe that for most Powers, the final decison does indeed rest with them. However, not all gods believe or behave in the same way, and the promotion and dedication of a paladin to a faith I feel, should reflect that. But I suppose this also comes from my utilising of alternate rules for allowing paladins who are not exclusively LG. As such, the clergy for the faithful of Bane may indeed accept any and all who worship the Black Tyrant because Bane himself sees the ultimate potential of this "paladin" to further the aims of his domain in Faerun. On the other hand, this same potential paladin, whose original "worship" which was at first believed to be a dedication to Bane, is actually nothing more than bizarre thoughts about law and order. It is a matter of perception. This potential paladin may be turned away from the clergies of powers like Torm or Helm for example, because of the potential paladin's views. And from that, Torm or Helm may not even wish for such an individual to promote their faiths in the Realms.[quote]
Well, just for clarification's sake, when I say paladin I mean the LG variety. Thus, when I say potential for paladinhood I mean potential for that kind of paladinhood.
[quote]
The issue of paladins and faith in general, for me, should be a rather complicated issue, because faith is not something that is supposed-to-be-easily-defined, and neither are the motives of the gods themselves.
Well, I agree with that whole-heartedly. It is complicated, but, to me at least, it's an oversimplification to say that certain races don't make acceptable paladins.
-Blue |
Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.
I see your walrus and raise you a carpenter |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2005 : 13:00:32
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Greetings, if there is another threat as great as the Shar worshipper cells and the Zhentarim, I think that will be the Extaminaar.
From what I managed to garner about them:
quote:
The extaminaars are the snake-blooded members of the human noble House Extaminos, which has ruled the city of Hlondeth for more than eight hundred years. During the last century, the extaminaars have gone beyond Hlondeth to set up operations in other cities across Faerûn. They operate from the sewers and the shadows, hatching schemes to increase the power of their house and finding victims on which to perform their vile grafting and breeding experiments.
Extaminaars make excellent rogues, because they are known for their guile and wicked ability to strike from the shadows. Others often try to enlist extaminaars into their organizations because of their skills as crime bosses, interrogators, and information brokers. Still, most extaminaars have proven exceedingly loyal to their noble house.
So I wonder any novels had them incorporated into the story.
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We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2005 : 14:10:01
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| Maybe they will appear in Vanity`s Brood. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2005 : 16:45:48
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| Both the two first novels in Lisa Smedman's House of Serpents-trilogy features members of House Extaminos. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2005 : 03:14:55
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| Thanks for the names of the novels where the House Exterminos is featured in. I am planning to put the members of this house in the adventturing journal I am currently penning, anyway thanks for the replies. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2005 : 06:26:18
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| In that case you may also want to get hold of the 2nd edition accessory The Vilhon Reach. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2005 : 09:05:50
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| Right, thank you Kajehase for the extra recommendation. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2005 : 13:09:42
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| The information about Yuan-ti male physiology in Vipers kiss was..........disturbing. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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The Blue Sorceress
Learned Scribe
107 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2005 : 23:27:57
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
The information about Yuan-ti male physiology in Vipers kiss was..........disturbing.
Care to share?
-Blue |
Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.
I see your walrus and raise you a carpenter |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2005 : 09:46:09
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| It would appear that at least some yuan-ti males have either twice, or half the stamina of human males. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2005 : 10:29:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
It would appear that at least some yuan-ti males have either twice, or half the stamina of human males.
That's amusing to hear. Ha, I wonder how do the male yuan-ti fare in combat given their poor stamina, perhaps not too good. Nice information, Kajehase! It is certainly amusing to note. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2005 : 13:37:21
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| Yuan-ti males have two "lances" instead of one....... |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2005 : 17:05:38
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Yuan-ti males have two "lances" instead of one.......
I have to do it:
Double your pleasure, double your fun. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2005 : 19:07:47
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Yuan-ti males have two "lances" instead of one.......
I have to do it:
Double your pleasure, double your fun.
I was thinking that, but for once, even I wasn't going to go there! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 May 2005 : 19:15:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Yuan-ti males have two "lances" instead of one.......
I have to do it:
Double your pleasure, double your fun.
I was thinking that, but for once, even I wasn't going to go there!
I did it for you this time. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 02:02:28
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Yuan-ti males have two "lances" instead of one.......
That is certainly very amusing indeed. |
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Worst threat to Faerun?
