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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jan 2006 : 14:30:41
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Does anyone know if WotC intend to release some new Heroes Lorebook and Villains Lorebook for the third edition ? The old ones are for the second edition and, beside that, they became outdated, they were released in 1996 and since then many new characters appeared or the old ones gained new levels and stuff and had new adventures.
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Kes_Alanadel
Learned Scribe
USA
326 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2006 : 15:22:20
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If my thinking isn't too muddled this morning, I believe that Champions of Valor and Champions of Ruin are considered the updates for those.
~Kes |
Ack! I seem to have too much blood in my coffee stream!
When did 'common sense' cease to be common? |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2006 : 15:36:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kes_Alanadel
If my thinking isn't too muddled this morning, I believe that Champions of Valor and Champions of Ruin are considered the updates for those.
~Kes
god I hope not
Im pretty sure neither contains stats for any FR novel characters |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kes_Alanadel
Learned Scribe
USA
326 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2006 : 15:50:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Kes_Alanadel
If my thinking isn't too muddled this morning, I believe that Champions of Valor and Champions of Ruin are considered the updates for those.
~Kes
god I hope not
Im pretty sure neither contains stats for any FR novel characters
Which is why I put a qualifier in my reply. I wasn't sure, but put those out as possibilities, since other than Lords of Darkness, those are the newest books to cover both side of the coin...so to speak.
~Kes |
Ack! I seem to have too much blood in my coffee stream!
When did 'common sense' cease to be common? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2006 : 16:46:32
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| Rich has been asked about this and he basically said he doesn't think it's peasable because they wouldn't know which chars people really wanted to see..... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2006 : 18:22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Kes_Alanadel
If my thinking isn't too muddled this morning, I believe that Champions of Valor and Champions of Ruin are considered the updates for those.
~Kes
Not really... The two Lorebooks were little more than collections of NPCs. The Champions books were about various power groups within the Realms. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2006 : 18:28:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
Does anyone know if WotC intend to release some new Heroes Lorebook and Villains Lorebook for the third edition ? The old ones are for the second edition and, beside that, they became outdated, they were released in 1996 and since then many new characters appeared or the old ones gained new levels and stuff and had new adventures.
Gods, I hope not... One of the problems with translating novel characters to D&D stats is that novel characters usually aren't written with the rules in mind -- so squashing them into the pre-made shapes required by the rules doesn't always work well.
Another issue is that every time the characters are statted out, people disagree on what the ideal fits and classes for each character are...
Lastly, every time there's a new rulebook or ruleset that comes out, it may contain some PrC, variant class, or new version of an old class that may be a better fit for a character than what was previously available. That means that any book that stats out a character could be invalidated by the next book. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2006 : 18:49:03
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What I would want is a "Ed's characters handbooks". There is so many non-stated in sourcebooks NPCs in his novels..
Recently I read Elminster's daughter, Waterdeep and Hand of fire, so much new NPCs with "easy" names to correctly remember them all  . (That maybe caused by my first language being french).
In fact, I would prefer a "Character list" with a really short description at the beginning of his books  |
Edited by - Skeptic on 21 Jan 2006 18:49:31 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2006 : 03:26:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
What I would want is a "Ed's characters handbooks". There is so many non-stated in sourcebooks NPCs in his novels..
Recently I read Elminster's daughter, Waterdeep and Hand of fire, so much new NPCs with "easy" names to correctly remember them all . (That maybe caused by my first language being french).
In fact, I would prefer a "Character list" with a really short description at the beginning of his books
You mean something like a "List of Cast" in the back, that some novels do? |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2006 : 03:48:38
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| Yeah exactly, if someone have read the novels of Peter Berling (Knight templars, crusade, holy grail thing), there is so many characters (one with 4 different names) that he put such a list at the beggining. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2006 : 07:08:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Yeah exactly, if someone have read the novels of Peter Berling (Knight templars, crusade, holy grail thing), there is so many characters (one with 4 different names) that he put such a list at the beggining.
Some of the WotC novels do.
But remember, adding that in also increases the Page Count and Word Count of a novel, and thus Cost goes up too. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
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Firhyanda
Learned Scribe
USA
108 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2006 : 07:51:15
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Greetings
Perhaps someone could post a master character list for the realms once a year a sort of census with just a name class levels and historical significance. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2006 : 17:05:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Firhyanda
Greetings
Perhaps someone could post a master character list for the realms once a year a sort of census with just a name class levels and historical significance.
I did that already with the 1e and 2e npc's that have stats. :)
http://home.rochester.rr.com/kuje/
I used to have a sticky'd thread here on the boards, but I dunno where it is now. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 22 Jan 2006 17:06:20 |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2006 : 02:18:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I used to have a sticky'd thread here on the boards, but I dunno where it is now. :)
You've been demoted, Kuje - you must be slacking in your old age. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2006 : 04:03:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Reefy
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I used to have a sticky'd thread here on the boards, but I dunno where it is now. :)
You've been demoted, Kuje - you must be slacking in your old age.
I know! I caught it from Wooly and Sage, blame them. :) Now, as for where that thread went.... I really don't know... |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31726 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2006 : 05:57:38
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That's right... Blame me! When we all know the Great Furry One is really the Giant Space Hamster of Laziness!
Hey now! Don't make me sic a swarm of Miniature Giant Space Hamsters on you!
Besides, I'm here. I'm not on vacation, like a certain moderator I could mention... So let's blame him!   |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2006 : 19:59:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
Does anyone know if WotC intend to release some new Heroes Lorebook and Villains Lorebook for the third edition ? The old ones are for the second edition and, beside that, they became outdated, they were released in 1996 and since then many new characters appeared or the old ones gained new levels and stuff and had new adventures.
Gods, I hope not... One of the problems with translating novel characters to D&D stats is that novel characters usually aren't written with the rules in mind -- so squashing them into the pre-made shapes required by the rules doesn't always work well.
Another issue is that every time the characters are statted out, people disagree on what the ideal fits and classes for each character are...
Lastly, every time there's a new rulebook or ruleset that comes out, it may contain some PrC, variant class, or new version of an old class that may be a better fit for a character than what was previously available. That means that any book that stats out a character could be invalidated by the next book.
Don't be that negative, those books were not just about their class and levels, there were also their biographies, personality, equipment, special attributes... They are very handy to know what famous characters roam the Realms since very few of us managed to read all the books. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2006 : 20:48:04
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While I have no idea whether WoTC will decide to do such books again, I can mention the general tenor of remarks at Realms forums in years past from WoTC staff and the audience ...
1) Books like the Heroes' Lorebook tend to be of limited utility since they are filled with "good guys" / "alternates to your PCs". Other than to satisfy the curiosity of "gamers who read novels", there don't add a lot of value to individual campaigns.
2) Books like the Villain's Lorebook tend to be of limited utility since many novels end with the bad guy dead, disarmed, or redeemed. In other words, their story has already been told.
My personal opinion:
If there was going to be a book of NPCs, I'd much prefer it to be filled with mid-level NPCs who are generally villains and interesting "role NPCs".
Why mid-level villains? Low-level is very easy for the DM to stat out, so focus on stuff that takes time. High level requires huge stat blocks and I believe high level villain should generally be custom designed by the DM as the "master villain of the campaign."
What are "role NPCs"? These are the innkeepers, stableboys, city guard commanders, etc. that your PCs are likely to meet during an adventure and the DM usually needs on the fly. I'd actually prefer that they be non-exotic (i.e. humans, not disguised tieflings or half-fiend doppelgangers) so that their stat blocks can be reused repeatedly. I'd like their "hook" to be a role-playing one, not a magic item, class combo, or weird race hook.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2006 : 20:55:35
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Personally, my curiosity is usually sated with a simple Character Name, Sex Race Class(es) Level, (Deity worshipped) stat block. This lets you know if they are high enough level to cast spells for your, hire you, train you, or what have you, if they aren't evil, and gives you room to tailor their abilities if want to use them as a villain.
I do wish we could see a quick snapshot like I listed above on characters that are relatively new, but part of that is to show what level of challenge those characters are involved with. If they are 20+ level, they you know they are rubbing shoulders with Khelbun and Elminster, and if they are below 6th level you know they are sympatico with most starting adventurers.
Beyond that, I don't need a two or three page writeup on a character that provides feats and skills that a lot of people are going to change at any rate. Trust me, statistically, Elminster and the like may be of similar level in my campaigns, but if I ever felt the need to know their precise stats, I would alter them to suit what I personally know of them and feel they would have.
But that's my thoughts on this. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2006 : 21:16:06
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Grin,
Eric, basically like my Laborers articles from the Compendium, eh? |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2006 : 23:21:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
Don't be that negative, those books were not just about their class and levels, there were also their biographies, personality, equipment, special attributes... They are very handy to know what famous characters roam the Realms since very few of us managed to read all the books.
Who was being negative? Other than their stats, most of that information was available in the novels the characters appeared in -- and novels are the best place to read about the characters. The Lorebooks essentially summed up the already-given information, and slapped numbers and classes on characters that weren't necessarily designed with numbers and classes in mind. And in many cases, these numbers and stats changed with the publication of later sourcebooks. I believe Drizzt Do'Urden, for example, was statted out about 4 or 5 times, just in 2E. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2006 : 23:24:30
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Personally, my curiosity is usually sated with a simple Character Name, Sex Race Class(es) Level, (Deity worshipped) stat block. This lets you know if they are high enough level to cast spells for your, hire you, train you, or what have you, if they aren't evil, and gives you room to tailor their abilities if want to use them as a villain.
A lot of the NPCs in 2E sourcebooks had really simple write-ups: name, class(es) and level(s), race, gender, and any stats above 16. I really liked that -- it didn't waste print on useless information, and it was enough to give a starting point if I needed to use the NPC. Plus, giving just the minimum amount of info meant that the NPC could be easily tweaked to suit a given need, without violating Realmslore. And it prevents issues like with the stats given in the "Alustriel's Consort" articles by Ed: someone else statted the guy out, and didn't make the stats match the description. There was much discussion over that flub. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Jan 2006 23:28:29 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36797 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2006 : 23:27:03
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quote:
Originally posted by ericlboyd
My personal opinion:
If there was going to be a book of NPCs, I'd much prefer it to be filled with mid-level NPCs who are generally villains and interesting "role NPCs".
Why mid-level villains? Low-level is very easy for the DM to stat out, so focus on stuff that takes time. High level requires huge stat blocks and I believe high level villain should generally be custom designed by the DM as the "master villain of the campaign."
What are "role NPCs"? These are the innkeepers, stableboys, city guard commanders, etc. that your PCs are likely to meet during an adventure and the DM usually needs on the fly. I'd actually prefer that they be non-exotic (i.e. humans, not disguised tieflings or half-fiend doppelgangers) so that their stat blocks can be reused repeatedly. I'd like their "hook" to be a role-playing one, not a magic item, class combo, or weird race hook.
--Eric
I'm inclined to agree with this. It strikes me as far more useful, and gives the DM something other than the Big Guns of the Realms to use.
Kuje's Laborers articles have been good for that, too: more of the folks the PCs will actually meet and deal with on a regular basis, rather than the king or mage they might encounter only once or twice. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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New heroes and villain lorebooks
