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Kyrene
Senior Scribe
South Africa
757 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 08:44:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Matt James
*rings his hands as his maniacal plan to show everyone the value of Candlekeep and why edition-wars should not destroy us*
Now, I've always known Matt is gifted, but all that ringing is starting to hurt my ears.  |
Lost for words? Find them in the Glossary of Phrases, Sayings & Words of the Realms
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 09:22:18
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2001? That would have given people a reasonable amount of time to cool down; in addition I have always had the feeling that Candlekeep from the start attracted those who liked the 3ed. but as I was not around at the time I could be wrong.
But from what I heard, there were enough edtion wars going on at various internet sites at the time. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 13:27:36
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At least at the start, a lot of 3e lore was repurposed 2e lore with only a small twist with a few PrC's or new stat blocks or whatever. An example of this is Silver Marches, which had a high % of its content copied directly, or at best only lightly edited, from The North. So that early, there wasn't a whole lot to complain about.
There was Bane coming back, and that it wasn't shown in a novel, or that the Denning novels weren't very good and didn't do a good job of explaining changes (like or loathe th Avatar books, they at least explained why things changed). A lot of the stuff people complained about, like the Great Tree nonsense, didn't show up until later. Likewise, it took a while for the 3e's natural proclivities (eh, creating lore is too hard, let's just throw in another half dozen PrCs!) to truly take over.
In contrast, all of the things people dislike/hate about 4e was front-loaded, and came in waves so that even if people started to accept one thing (ie: Helm dying), another thing (ie: Spellplague) would come along to rile us up. Keep repeating (ie: 100 years), as the bad news keeps coming. That, I think, is one reason why there's such a difference. That, plus we've have seven years to organize into communities on the internet, so there's more of us to complain. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 14:22:42
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| Might I suggest that one reason the 2nd to 3rd edition changes were taken better might be to do with the fact that they added things, rather then taking away things en masse. Other then the changes to Cormyr (which were done by Ed himself), nothing really got removed. If you still wanted Xvim to be around, file off Bane's name, and you've got him. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 14:41:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
2001? That would have given people a reasonable amount of time to cool down; in addition I have always had the feeling that Candlekeep from the start attracted those who liked the 3ed. but as I was not around at the time I could be wrong.
But from what I heard, there were enough edtion wars going on at various internet sites at the time.
I dunno; there's been a reasonable amount of time to cool down from 4E, but it's still flaring up rather frequently. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 14:44:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
At least at the start, a lot of 3e lore was repurposed 2e lore with only a small twist with a few PrC's or new stat blocks or whatever. An example of this is Silver Marches, which had a high % of its content copied directly, or at best only lightly edited, from The North. So that early, there wasn't a whole lot to complain about.
There was Bane coming back, and that it wasn't shown in a novel, or that the Denning novels weren't very good and didn't do a good job of explaining changes (like or loathe th Avatar books, they at least explained why things changed). A lot of the stuff people complained about, like the Great Tree nonsense, didn't show up until later. Likewise, it took a while for the 3e's natural proclivities (eh, creating lore is too hard, let's just throw in another half dozen PrCs!) to truly take over.
In contrast, all of the things people dislike/hate about 4e was front-loaded, and came in waves so that even if people started to accept one thing (ie: Helm dying), another thing (ie: Spellplague) would come along to rile us up. Keep repeating (ie: 100 years), as the bad news keeps coming. That, I think, is one reason why there's such a difference. That, plus we've have seven years to organize into communities on the internet, so there's more of us to complain.
I think 3E's reception would have been even better if they had attempted to explain things... My biggest complaint about the 3E changes is that they didn't even attempt to explain away anything, even when a single sentence would have done so. It's because of that that I feel continuity was being considered a burden rather than an asset, even back then. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 15:41:53
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| Personally, I resist much more to take the change to 2E / 3E than now. Actually, I“m preparing my campaign to shift to the 4E rules (but to continue in 1373 DR), and I“m envisioning a campaign in the new timeline, too. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 15:58:33
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The most irritating thing about the transition from 2nd-Edition to 3rd-Edition, for me, were the massive cuts and alterations to the geography of Faerūn, just so it could fit on a poster map!  |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 16:36:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The most irritating thing about the transition from 2nd-Edition to 3rd-Edition, for me, were the massive cuts and alterations to the geography of Faerūn, just so it could fit on a poster map!
I'll second that. I spent months crafting my own revised maps for the 3e map included with the FRCS -- basing it almost entirely on the original maps from both the 1e and 2e FR boxed sets. It was exhaustive work restoring most of what had been lost/cut/changed.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 04 Sep 2009 16:37:49 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 17:30:49
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Well, I never really looked upon the full FR map in days gone by or even in the decade of 3E, I just utilzed the region where my adventure / campaign was set and was done with it. Hence, some geographical changes never really bothered me.
What was a bit strange was the return of Bane who was some sort of driving force before, yet there was no real reason to have him back (as is the same with Orcus). The deity stuff all got somewhat out of hand when for some reason people were in need to have deific novels, Cyric, Midnight, Kelemvor and all that stuff, Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal. (Though I grant them that the Bhaal story paved the way for one of the finest RPG-PC-game series ever, BG I & II.) This is the Realms wand we were not in need of having gods behaving like normal people with INT 14 like those puppets in Greek mythology (not religion, mind you). Still, both the slaying of a handful of gods and their substituions were essentially minor changes to the setting as such. What was really new was the return of the city of Shade (by no means do I view that as a "return of Netheril" and I still cannot understand why they had to blow that up to the 4E proportions, given that there are a handful of high-ups running about, plus a thousand or two elite warriors and spellhurlers and they conquer and rule a region as large as a handful of US states? Come on!). Add to that some political upheavals in the east, Unther and Mulhorand, a bit brushing up of the north, e.g. Silver Marches and King Obould. There you go. Most of the rest is not exactly Realms-affecting. Elven retreat has stopped? They were retreating for hundreds of years and no-one really noticed it. Do one expect to notice that those who stayed do not move off? Did they return in large numbers? Nope. That happened late on in 3E.
One interesting thing was the return of the drow to Cormanthor, but from about two months after the FRCS and Lords of Darkness, you got the impression that the designers did not really knew what to make of them. One day they were a force to be reckoned with, the next the were peripheral figures who hardly got a mention. All ending with them rushed back into the doldrums of the Underdark when poor Sarya was novel-set up to lose their battle for the old Sun Elven places.
Ach well.
The thing is that 2E to 3E did change a few things, but they as a whole were minor changes that did not disturb the feel for the Realms. When 4E happened by, it is more like spotting what you could recognize as FR any longer. And if you do, it is more often than not only by name, not by theme any longer. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 04 Sep 2009 17:35:23 |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 17:51:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
The thing is that 2E to 3E did change a few things, but they as a whole were minor changes that did not disturb the feel for the Realms.
Well, to put it like this, I had no idea that 3ed. was coming at all. the one day I went into a new gaming shop and saw the campaign setting, I was pleasantly surprised and bought it, along with Lords of Darkness. I wont go into details, but it was probably three years before I looked at another Realms new product. If it hadn't been for Candlekeep I would never have bought another one (and thereby lost out on Serpent kingdoms), so you can safely say that the feel was clearly disturbed for me at least.
And don't even get me started on the maps. Or the short-nosed gnomes, or the planetouched, drow everywhere, changing nations, returning wizards, Chosen all over the place, changing gods, art, setup etc. And did I mention the maps.?
OK, I needed that, I will go back to my usual cool, calm and collected. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 18:04:04
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For me it was novel The Summoning. The thing was so bad it put me off all Realms novels for over a year. I used to get and read every one; I still haven't completely caught up from the gap Summoning inflicted.
And yes, I think there were (lots) of things wrong with 3e, but most of them either weren't there at all, or weren't as clear when it first came out. It took time for the backlash to really begin, so I'm not surprised that a thread from 2002 was still fairly civil, and short. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 19:25:48
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| Imo the most annoying things, Zhentarim becoming the army of Bane, then how they introduced the shades, surfacing the drow, making more elven sub-races and one of that monk groups. Bigger mistakes happened later. Thay-mart didn't bother me. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 19:43:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Thay-mart didn't bother me.
I actually liked the Red Wal-Marts. My idea of a Thayan civil war involves the Red Wal-Marts becoming a separate faction, based out of Mulmaster. Kind of like Clans Wolf and Wolf-in-Exile, if you know the BattleTech universe.
See, my idea is that Szass is working behind the scenes, quietly dominating a couple of the zulkirs and other prominent mages. Then someone manages to resist, and blows the whole thing wide open. Those loyal to or controlled by Szass remain in Thay, while those acting against him (but remaining loyal to Thay itself) take refuge in Mulmaster, openly take it over, and use the Red Wal-Marts to increase their political and financial power, so they can use it against him. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 20:06:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Thay-mart didn't bother me.
I'll give you one guess about whether it bothered me or not
The Red Wizards were great; mysterious fire-worshipping mages from far away lands involved in dark arts and the subject of countless rumours and tales. Travelling around and scaring people with the uncertainty of their plans.
And then they are turned into a bunch of magic-peddling merchants and trade-politicians? Talk about taking all pulpish sword and sorcery feeling out of it. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2009 : 22:46:28
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I was doing some research in some of my old Dragons, and stumbled upon an interesting Game Wizards article in Dragon #121 (itself a follow-up to another interesting article in #118). Since we're talking about some of the same issues in 2e->3e, I thought it would be interesting to share what 2e's primary designer was saying in response to letters from people who were devoted 1e players.
* *
'The first and most pressing comment I have to make is that revised game remain 100% compatible with the old.' John J. Strasser
"This comment is almost identical to one of our design standards for Second Edition, design standards being the guidelines game designers live by (or try to live by).
"One of the big issues of the Second Edition is compatibility. It's not my intention to force you to throw away your old rule books and rush out to buy the Second Edition. You want to be able to pick up the Second Edition rules and use them in your campaign without having to make extensive changes first.
...
"Just what percent compatibility we wind up with, I can't say. Indeed, the need to keep things compatible results in us not making some changes that would only confuse the issue. Take the armor class numbering system. To many players, it does not make sense that the worst armor classes have higher numbers, and it would seem simple to change it. However, reversing the order of the armor class numbers would invalidate every AD&D game campaign and product in existence. For compatibility's sake, it is better to make no change, since this change is not worth the trouble it will cause."
That was in 1987. What a difference ten years, and then ten again, makes, huh? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
Edited by - Hoondatha on 04 Sep 2009 22:48:48 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2009 : 00:12:28
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May I just raise the point of the drow, for half a heartbeat? Essentially, they weren't everywhere. Matter of factly, there weren't more there than before. Only that before 3E the only real place where you could meet drow en masse was in the Drizzt novels (which, timewise, are still pre-3E, of course). The problem was that IMHO drow were seen (and essentially are) THE most fascinating race that there is in all D&D and to promote 3E, they received quite a bit of prominence within the FR and also that "year of the drow" stuff early on in 3E - Dragon and Dungeon stuff galore. Within Realmspace though, you only had that smattering of drow returning to Cormanthor and the City of the Spider Queen campaign. BUT those were only promoted to no end, yet had very little effect on the Realms as such. As I pointed out above, the Cormanthor lads and lasses drifted in and out or real FR issues, whereas Maerimydra and all the events there did not resurface up to late 3E again, when the Lady Penitent series erased that bit of relative new lore to. Still, both WotSQ and LP were late issues in 3E and there were not more* drow running about within Realmspace in 3E than in 2E. Just that those who were had been put under the microscope. But would we use that as a standard, every last child within Realmspace would e.g. know about "Drizzt do'Urden of the North". And that is hardly the case, despite a dozen new novels.
It is always a problem for those who have a specific viewpoint. I presented mine above. Now though, you don't even need to have a specific viewpoint, since nigh everything has been changed, top to bottom.
*No, those few thousands in Cormanthor - since they do not really bothered someone - are, relatively speaking, not "much more". Within AD&D they e.g. reduced the numbers of the drow in the Forest of Mir from 80odd thousand to less then ten thousand without much problem. The later 3E went on, the more changes were wrung though, not least beneath Thay. Only to smash that again a couple of years later. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 05 Sep 2009 00:16:31 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2009 : 00:14:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Quale
Thay-mart didn't bother me.
I actually liked the Red Wal-Marts. My idea of a Thayan civil war involves the Red Wal-Marts becoming a separate faction, based out of Mulmaster. Kind of like Clans Wolf and Wolf-in-Exile, if you know the BattleTech universe.
Heh. I've been kind of thinking along a similar track. Only I viewed it more as Diamond Shark/Sea Fox splitting from the rest of the Clans and setting up trading enclaves around the Inner Sphere. I've even got Red Wizard Enclaves being operated from specially modified Thayvian Bombards -- that function in a similar capacity to those ArcShips of the Sharks. 
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2009 : 23:29:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I actually liked the Red Wal-Marts. My idea of a Thayan civil war involves the Red Wal-Marts becoming a separate faction, based out of Mulmaster. Kind of like Clans Wolf and Wolf-in-Exile, if you know the BattleTech universe.
See, my idea is that Szass is working behind the scenes, quietly dominating a couple of the zulkirs and other prominent mages. Then someone manages to resist, and blows the whole thing wide open. Those loyal to or controlled by Szass remain in Thay, while those acting against him (but remaining loyal to Thay itself) take refuge in Mulmaster, openly take it over, and use the Red Wal-Marts to increase their political and financial power, so they can use it against him.
Not familiar with BattleTech (cause of the ''tech'' part). The idea of using the enclaves in their factional conflicts is great, partially 4e got that right. Except that I always thought that if Thay got centralized, no rebel diaspora would stand a chance, nor any other country except Halruaa and Mulhorand. Personally I'd like that the covert wars continue within and outside of Thay. There should be more different factions, not just Tam vs. the rest. Faction control over a particular enclave should be unsteady with lots of spies, betrayals and assassinations, places where more is allowed in the open than in Thay. Agreed about the Mulmaster group opposing Tam but also the Zhents, to break some of the monotony of the region. The Cloaks maybe going underground and working for who offers better arcane secrets. So the real reason for the enclaves would be to give some breathing, maneuvering space, merchandising for most of the mighty is considered beneath them, only useful for filtering out lesser wizards.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I'll give you one guess about whether it bothered me or not
The Red Wizards were great; mysterious fire-worshipping mages from far away lands involved in dark arts and the subject of countless rumours and tales. Travelling around and scaring people with the uncertainty of their plans.
And then they are turned into a bunch of magic-peddling merchants and trade-politicians? Talk about taking all pulpish sword and sorcery feeling out of it.
It's true about the sword and sorcery bit, like I said above you could have both, ''softies'' representing ''progress'', all being nice and polite with ulterior motives, somewhat akin to selling guns to children in Africa, and hardhead traditionalists. Also those in between, who adapt, and enclaves serve them as a front for who knows what, and slavering operations are a bit easier. Maybe I'm too biased by real life, trade-politicians and magic ''corporations'' seem a lot more horrifying. From a Norwegian point of view, possibly not.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
That was in 1987. What a difference ten years, and then ten again, makes, huh?
I think it's about the difference between a small company like Paizo is now, not concentrated on pleasing such a wide customer base, and one more caring about pure profit.
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
May I just raise the point of the drow ...
Just a matter of taste, I don't think they fit well into the High Forest and Cormanthor considering their surroundings, Amtar would be a far better choice. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2009 : 02:06:09
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The Red Wizards were stupid before. I had to think, why would any community let them within a quarter mile of their settlement? Mysterious, usually evil wizards with a horrible reputation, and quite far away from home, offering nothing to the locals. The whole enclave idea gave them a perfect excuse to settle down in large numbers in the far more used areas, such as Cormyr, the Dalelands and the Moonsea.
Even then, WoTC didn't say 'Red Wizards will do this and do this alone.' The individual Red Wizard could still go out and raise heck and be a character straight out of pulpish fiction. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2009 : 02:33:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I actually liked the Red Wal-Marts. My idea of a Thayan civil war involves the Red Wal-Marts becoming a separate faction, based out of Mulmaster. Kind of like Clans Wolf and Wolf-in-Exile, if you know the BattleTech universe.
See, my idea is that Szass is working behind the scenes, quietly dominating a couple of the zulkirs and other prominent mages. Then someone manages to resist, and blows the whole thing wide open. Those loyal to or controlled by Szass remain in Thay, while those acting against him (but remaining loyal to Thay itself) take refuge in Mulmaster, openly take it over, and use the Red Wal-Marts to increase their political and financial power, so they can use it against him.
Not familiar with BattleTech (cause of the ''tech'' part). The idea of using the enclaves in their factional conflicts is great, partially 4e got that right. Except that I always thought that if Thay got centralized, no rebel diaspora would stand a chance, nor any other country except Halruaa and Mulhorand. Personally I'd like that the covert wars continue within and outside of Thay. There should be more different factions, not just Tam vs. the rest. Faction control over a particular enclave should be unsteady with lots of spies, betrayals and assassinations, places where more is allowed in the open than in Thay. Agreed about the Mulmaster group opposing Tam but also the Zhents, to break some of the monotony of the region. The Cloaks maybe going underground and working for who offers better arcane secrets. So the real reason for the enclaves would be to give some breathing, maneuvering space, merchandising for most of the mighty is considered beneath them, only useful for filtering out lesser wizards.
To sum up BattleTech: pure sci-fi, all humans, in giant stompy robots. 
My idea for the Thayan civil war doesn't assume that all those in Thay are loyal to Szass Tam. Of course he'd have official control, but for a lot of Thayans, it would be exactly the same as before, just with a different name on the government letterhead. Some of those in Thay would be part of the anti-Szass faction, but they'd be working behind the scenes. Most Thayans would simply go with the flow. And of course, there would be, at least initially, a flow of rebels leaving for Mulmaster or simply deciding it's a good time to cut and run.
I compare this to BattleTech because something similar happened in Clan Wolf. The Clan was roughly split along into two factions, the Wardens and the Crusaders. Most of the Wardens left Clan space, leaving the Crusaders behind. Both sides consider themselves to be the real Clan Wolf, and both sides are loyal to what they think is the overall purpose of the Clans -- it's just that Clan Wolf and Clan Wolf-in-Exile have a different idea of what the purpose of the Clans is.
That's how I see a Thayan civil war. Both sides want Thay ascendant, but one side thinks Szass is the guy to get them there, and the other side thinks Szass is entirely the wrong guy to get them there. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2009 : 04:23:03
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| Sweet reference to CBT. I love the storyline there too (for the most part). |
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bladeinAmn
Learned Scribe
199 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2009 : 06:52:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
The most irritating thing about the transition from 2nd-Edition to 3rd-Edition, for me, were the massive cuts and alterations to the geography of Faerūn, just so it could fit on a poster map!
Really? I use the 3e map for all my campaigns, w/the only alteration being I use the 2e scale with it. And I have the 2e "The Great Glacier" book by Rick Swan, for is my campaigns ever take me far north in Sossal territory, as well as the maps from the 2e FRCG and 2e FR Atlas, for perfect reference and translation to my 3e map.
While 2e had problems in its rule set (ie--halflings unable to become paladins, and other silly stuff like that), I found that 3e overcomplicated a plenthora of things that didn't need to be complicated. And by plenthora I mean just about everything I can think of.
All that and the fact that bards aren't supposed to cast Magic Missile (the most mainstream spell in ALL fantasy campaigns) were the things that irritate me most about the transition from 2e to 3e. |
Edited by - bladeinAmn on 06 Sep 2009 07:40:13 |
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2009 : 10:16:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My idea for the Thayan civil war doesn't assume that all those in Thay are loyal to Szass Tam. Of course he'd have official control, but for a lot of Thayans, it would be exactly the same as before, just with a different name on the government letterhead. Some of those in Thay would be part of the anti-Szass faction, but they'd be working behind the scenes. Most Thayans would simply go with the flow. And of course, there would be, at least initially, a flow of rebels leaving for Mulmaster or simply deciding it's a good time to cut and run.
Ok, but imo Tam already has too much power, once he claims it officially, he would have the entire country's resources at his disposal, it would become extremely hard to reject his demands, easy to use the high treason card, public may secretly grumble, but unless there's a full-scale revolution they'd passively support the new law, thus the other factions would diminish to insignificance and cultism.
Battle-Tech, I don't like warforged, so ... |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2009 : 11:16:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I'll give you one guess about whether it bothered me or not
The Red Wizards were great; mysterious fire-worshipping mages from far away lands involved in dark arts and the subject of countless rumours and tales. Travelling around and scaring people with the uncertainty of their plans.
And then they are turned into a bunch of magic-peddling merchants and trade-politicians? Talk about taking all pulpish sword and sorcery feeling out of it.
It's true about the sword and sorcery bit, like I said above you could have both, ''softies'' representing ''progress'', all being nice and polite with ulterior motives, somewhat akin to selling guns to children in Africa, and hardhead traditionalists. Also those in between, who adapt, and enclaves serve them as a front for who knows what, and slavering operations are a bit easier. Maybe I'm too biased by real life, trade-politicians and magic ''corporations'' seem a lot more horrifying. From a Norwegian point of view, possibly not.
I see the Red Wizards as more decadent sensualists with little taste for organisation outside of their own schemes. And the two factions as more a general guideline to the politics of the wizards than any form of organized fronts. In other words the good old-fashioned evil land of wizards from old pulpish fantasy.
And as a moderate to soft-socialistic Norwegian nothing scares me more than big corporations and anarchic trade situations without a form of (light) stately control. But this will lead to Real world discussions so I will leave it there. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2009 : 15:10:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Quale
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
My idea for the Thayan civil war doesn't assume that all those in Thay are loyal to Szass Tam. Of course he'd have official control, but for a lot of Thayans, it would be exactly the same as before, just with a different name on the government letterhead. Some of those in Thay would be part of the anti-Szass faction, but they'd be working behind the scenes. Most Thayans would simply go with the flow. And of course, there would be, at least initially, a flow of rebels leaving for Mulmaster or simply deciding it's a good time to cut and run.
Ok, but imo Tam already has too much power, once he claims it officially, he would have the entire country's resources at his disposal, it would become extremely hard to reject his demands, easy to use the high treason card, public may secretly grumble, but unless there's a full-scale revolution they'd passively support the new law, thus the other factions would diminish to insignificance and cultism.
Battle-Tech, I don't like warforged, so ...
Ah, but he'd have no control over the sizable faction that gets out of dodge as soon as it becomes apparent what he's doing. Once they're out, they're mostly in the clear.
And it's not a case where everyone wakes up one day and he's suddenly in total control. He's only got maybe 3 of the other zulkirs under his control when someone realizes what he's doing and blows it open. So there's a gap between the revealing of his plans, and him actually being able to consolidate his control. Obviously he'd advance his timetable as soon as people realized what he's doing, but he'd still have to work at taking control of everything. I think it would take two or three months at minimum, more likely six. Maybe even longer, if some holdouts can go to ground in a good location, instead of fleeing.
So you have him working behind the scenes, but then it's revealed. Now there's some chaos in Thay as some Thayans hightail it out of there, some work to seize control of things because Szass told them to, some work to seize control of things because they want to curry favor (with either side!), some work to seize control of things just to hold their own, and some work to seize control of things to act in opposition to Szass. This goes on for a few months, at least.
Because even with Szass Tam openly ruling, Thayans remain Thayans. A lot of them are only going to be looking out for number one. So even with Szass in charge, there's still going to be a lot of Red Wizzies still working against each other. Thay under Szass Tam will not be a unified body of wizards, though there is a bit more unity than there was before. He's top dog, but he's still herding cats.
As for BattleTech, it's giant stompy robots driven by people -- they can't act on their own. All the books have a lot of battle, but I most enjoy the ones where the politics that leads to the fighting is prominent. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 06 Sep 2009 15:12:11 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2009 : 15:41:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
The deity stuff all got somewhat out of hand when for some reason people were in need to have deific novels, Cyric, Midnight, Kelemvor and all that stuff, Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal...we were not in need of having gods behaving like normal people with INT 14 like those puppets in Greek mythology (not religion, mind you).
There are very few novels where deities act intelligently. With Cyric and Kelemvor, it was ok for them to act a bit dumb before apotheosis. But it is strange to see a deity whose intelligence is in the high 20's, or high 30's or high 40's acting like a dumb power-gamer.
Deities are best represented by their clergy and worshippers and not as themselves in novels. To my (limited) knowledge, Gruumsh has not appeared in a novel and therefore retains his deific persona. I have little doubt that if he did appear he'd just be a stronger orc, and no demonstrate especial intelligence.
Once god-killing become a common past-time, a lot of verisimilitude was lost. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2009 : 16:02:20
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| I think Gruumsh had a cameo at the beginning of the Evermeet novel, along with the rest of the elven pantheon and a number of human deities. But that may not count, since that whole book is a collection of elven stories, myths, and history collected by Danilo, as opposed to gods as characters told with a third person omniscent narrator. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2009 : 19:24:50
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quote:
Originally posted by bladeinAmn
While 2e had problems in its rule set (ie--halflings unable to become paladins, and other silly stuff like that), I found that 3e overcomplicated a plenthora of things that didn't need to be complicated. And by plenthora I mean just about everything I can think of.
All that and the fact that bards aren't supposed to cast Magic Missile (the most mainstream spell in ALL fantasy campaigns) were the things that irritate me most about the transition from 2e to 3e.
Many of us liked the rules that forbid demi-humans from becoming any class or that put level limits on them, remember AD&D was designed to be humanocentric. Also, keep in mind that there was no rule preventing bards from casting magic missile, just flavor. Bards were supposed to be played as morale boosting charmers and jacks of all trades, not fireball slinging battlemages. A bard was far more effective with phantasmal force or audible glamer as their first level spell than magic missile or sleep anyways. Finally the word you are looking for is plethora not plenthora. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2009 : 00:13:56
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| I also liked the limitations on what classes races could be. Level caps, though, was a completely different matter; they're the first thing I house-rule out. About the only thing I use them for is a general guideline as to how common a certain class is within the race. For instance, if the max level for wizard is 4, I take that to mean that wizards of that race can generally rise to whatever level they want, but that wizards as a whole are very rare. One of the things I disliked about 3e was its obsession with allowing everyone to be everything, ignoring that there are sometimes good reasons why some people don't become certain things. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Differences between 2nd and 3rd edition FR
