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Rhezarnos
Learned Scribe
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Malaysia
131 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Nov 2005 : 05:18:03
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Just finished reading Part I & II of the Last Mythal trilogy and a couple of questions came to mind soon after. Can anyone help?
1) They called Malkizid a fallen celestial. If that's the case, I take it that there's more fallens out there? And how does one corrupt a celestial?
2) Looking up the history of tanar'ri again, I found that "the most numerous of demons are the tanar'ri...". The same goes for baatezu. If they make up the majority, there'd be other kinds of demons and devils around, right?
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Playing a winged dwarf with acrophobia is fun. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2005 : 06:07:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhezarnos
Just finished reading Part I & II of the Last Mythal trilogy and a couple of questions came to mind soon after. Can anyone help?
1) They called Malkizid a fallen celestial. If that's the case, I take it that there's more fallens out there? And how does one corrupt a celestial?
2) Looking up the history of tanar'ri again, I found that "the most numerous of demons are the tanar'ri...". The same goes for baatezu. If they make up the majority, there'd be other kinds of demons and devils around, right?
1) Fallen Celestials, going bibically several of the Archdevils/Dukes of Hell are Fallen Angels, especially if you the expanded ones that never made it to 3E, such as Lucifer.
2) All Tanar'ri are Demons, but not all Demons are Tanar'ri, same goes for Baatezu and Devils.
Example of a non-Tanar'ri Demon is the Ghour Demon from Monsters of Faerun/Lost Empires of Faerun. Others are the Yochlol, Bebilith, and
Quasit.
Example of a non-Baatezu Devil is the Kyton (Chain Devil), Hellcat (Bezekira), and Imp. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2005 : 10:13:34
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| I believe a former member of the Lords of the Nine was a fallen celestial as well.(Zariel?) |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Rhezarnos
Learned Scribe
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Malaysia
131 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2005 : 15:04:30
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Thanks for clearing things up.
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Example of a non-Baatezu Devil is the Kyton (Chain Devil), Hellcat (Bezekira), and Imp.
I thought them imps were demons? Several books I read, even several tabletop campaigns I played, classified imps as demons. *Is pathetically confused* |
Playing a winged dwarf with acrophobia is fun. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2005 : 15:18:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
I believe a former member of the Lords of the Nine was a fallen celestial as well.(Zariel?)
Your referring to the archon Triel actually, who is now Baalzebul... Lord of the Seventh.
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Edited by - The Sage on 23 Nov 2005 15:18:51 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2005 : 15:21:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhezarnos
I thought them imps were demons? Several books I read, even several tabletop campaigns I played, classified imps as demons. *Is pathetically confused*
In 2e (PLANESCAPE), imps were usually formed from larva by powerful baatezu -- though they are not considered fiends themselves.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - The Sage on 23 Nov 2005 15:22:26 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2005 : 22:43:02
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>>I thought them imps were demons? Several books I read, even >>several tabletop campaigns I played, classified imps as demons. >>*Is pathetically confused
Imps are devils
Quasits are demons
Pretty much the two look the same and have similar abilities |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Neriandal Freit
Senior Scribe
USA
396 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2005 : 23:22:06
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| Aww...This topic is like my Redeemed topics!! *tear* |
"Eating people is wrong...unless it's on the first date." - Ed Greenwood, GenCon Indy 2006 |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2005 : 23:26:45
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Quasits aren't necessarily demons. They are little misunderstood dudes.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 02:17:45
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
>>I thought them imps were demons? Several books I read, even >>several tabletop campaigns I played, classified imps as demons. >>*Is pathetically confused
Imps are devils
Quasits are demons
Pretty much the two look the same and have similar abilities
Quasits are the CE counterpart to the LE imps. And they're not really devils and demons... at least, not in the truest sense of the word. They are connected to the fiendish races yes, but not enough for them to be considered a part of the races like gelugons or vrocks.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 02:23:07
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There are many creatures that are associated with fiends, but aren't part of the same race (i.e. Night Hags). You have to watch that you are grouping the right guys together.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2005 : 15:18:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhezarnos
And how does one corrupt a celestial?
Hubris. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 15:22:22
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>>Quasits are the CE counterpart to the LE imps. And they're not >>really devils and demons... at least, not in the truest sense of >>the word. They are connected to the fiendish races yes, but not >>enough for them to be considered a part of the races like gelugons >>or vrocks.
They aren't baatezu or tanar'ri, but they are most definitely demons and devils respectively (thus, they come under the demon and devil entries in the MM). They just don't get the baatezu racial traits.
Phillip aka Sleyvas
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 15:46:00
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True, that would be the best way to describe them. It prevents them from labeling everything as a Tanar'ri. And it also helps to complete distinctify the differences between them.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2005 : 00:18:50
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
>>Quasits are the CE counterpart to the LE imps. And they're not >>really devils and demons... at least, not in the truest sense of >>the word. They are connected to the fiendish races yes, but not >>enough for them to be considered a part of the races like gelugons >>or vrocks.
They aren't baatezu or tanar'ri, but they are most definitely demons and devils respectively (thus, they come under the demon and devil entries in the MM). They just don't get the baatezu racial traits.
Phillip aka Sleyvas
While that is true, traditionally, I still view demons and devils as they were/are portrayed in the PLANESCAPE material... which means that imps and quasits aren't as closely related to fiends as they now are in 3e.
I don't like that particular aspect of the racial traits in 3e, because it seems to decrease a lot of the genetic diversity that we know is inherent on the planes. Therefore, I'll continue to view imps and quasits as individuals planar creatures.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 26 Nov 2005 00:19:33 |
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Vendrin
Acolyte
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2005 : 08:35:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Mystery_Man
quote:
Originally posted by Rhezarnos
And how does one corrupt a celestial?
Hubris.
Or in other cases for lawful good archons a slow decline from showing others how to obey the law and goodness to pushing them to do such and finally to forcing them, and eventually goodness gets lost along the way, a bit of law remains but mostly the will to control is all that stays. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2005 : 18:19:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
I believe a former member of the Lords of the Nine was a fallen celestial as well.(Zariel?)
Your referring to the archon Triel actually, who is now Baalzebul... Lord of the Seventh.
Haven`t you missed the one Bel, Lord of the First keeps imprisoned? It`s his predecessor, Zariel, and I`ve heard somewhere that she is a fallen celestial. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 00:03:47
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
I believe a former member of the Lords of the Nine was a fallen celestial as well.(Zariel?)
Your referring to the archon Triel actually, who is now Baalzebul... Lord of the Seventh.
Haven`t you missed the one Bel, Lord of the First keeps imprisoned? It`s his predecessor, Zariel, and I`ve heard somewhere that she is a fallen celestial.
Bel and Zariel are an intriguing case. Arguably, they could both be called the Lord of the First.
'Technically' is a dangerous word in Baator, since baatezu are most concerned with being technically right than anything else. But Bel is free to act, and he is slowly getting rid of Zariel. He is certainly the power of the layer, not Zariel - although one wonders if she can still influence others without Bel noticing.
Still, Zariel's best chance of escape lies with Bel's quick rise through the ranks and his service under the Dark Eight. Many baatezu don't appreciate those that don't know their place, and some of the older Lords don't like Bel much - too ambitious, too unpredictable... and too much under the Dark Eight's heel, and by extension under the control of the Lord of the Ninth.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 08:16:08
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Yes, Zariel I meant. I totally forgot about Triel... Silly me.
I need to busy myself more with my planar lore...*goes back reading* |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 08:34:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Rhezarnos
And how does one corrupt a celestial?
The idea that a Celestial can be corrupted, or a Fiend redeemed, depends upon the underlying concept of Free Will. A Celestial, good by nature, still can know temptation to do evil.
Pride (or as suggested above, "hubris") probably tops the list of temptations. One does not want to overlook lust as a motive, either. Depends on the Celestial, the god they serve (if any), and their weaknesses.
I could draw analogies from real-world religions, but don't want to offend. The legend of the nephelim does come to mind. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 10:05:34
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| Malkizid, Zariel and Triel are first-hand examples of a celestial gone bad. Is there any info ANYWHERE about a fiend gone good?(And I don`t mean cambions and the like. I am talking about full-blooded fiends) |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 10:12:50
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| Apart from the Pit Fiend forced to do good by use of its True Name in Hordes of the Underdark? None that I know of... |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 10:23:32
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| I do not know of any Realms-specific example of a fiend gone good. But Elric growing a conscience, and the redeemed Drow concept exemplified by the followers of Eilistraee are reasonable approximations of theme. The reformation of a fiend could be the core of a campaign. If it hasn't been done, it should be. |
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Darkheyr
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 10:25:58
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| Just that fiends are pretty much Evil Incarnate. Such things are a bit more complicated... If its done, it should be a major event. Probably one with its reasons rooted deep within millenia old history. |
silm.pw - A Neverwinter Nights Persistent World |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 17:03:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkheyr
Just that fiends are pretty much Evil Incarnate.
Celestials are pretty much Good Incarnate, and they seem to Fall all the time. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 18:11:29
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Malkizid, Zariel and Triel are first-hand examples of a celestial gone bad. Is there any info ANYWHERE about a fiend gone good?(And I don`t mean cambions and the like. I am talking about full-blooded fiends)
Not FR, but in Planescape: Torment, Fall-from-Grace is a succubus gone good. (Okay, her alignment's Lawful Neutral, but her inclinations are still very much compassionate.) |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 21:11:34
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I think FR originally stayed away from such concepts because that's what made up Planescape's whole concept - alignments are almost secondary compared to the prevailing beliefs. But, since this board isn't about PS - I'll refrain from going further.
I don't think any fiend ascension has been logged in FR - though I am sure it has happened.
C-Fb
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Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2005 : 00:33:48
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Malkizid, Zariel and Triel are first-hand examples of a celestial gone bad. Is there any info ANYWHERE about a fiend gone good?(And I don`t mean cambions and the like. I am talking about full-blooded fiends)
Not so much in the Realms, but the 3rd party sourcebook -- Avatar's Handbook -- offers an intriguing take on redeemed fiends in the form of "Reforged".
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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About fiends again
