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Lady Kazandra
Senior Scribe
Australia
921 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Nov 2005 : 13:22:02
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Falling is easy. Ascending, that's a trick.
Yep, which is why we very rarely heard of a "reformed" fiend.
Have there been any examples of "reformed" celestials in the Realms?
I already know about the various Planescape examples, but what about the Realms in 3e? Redeemed celestials are always a possibility, but I'm looking for concrete examples of this in 3e Forgotten Realms.
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"Once upon a time the plural of 'wizard' was 'war'." -- The Last Continent, by Terry Pratchett |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2005 : 14:37:23
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I can't think of any off the top of my head. At least as far as 3E goes (don't dig through my 2E stuff much anymore). FR usually keeps to a very objective view of evil, making it difficult to see what a villian (especially one created that way) would come back to the light.
It would be neat to see a fallen celestial come back to the side of light, though. Kind of like Darth Vader..
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 30 Nov 2005 : 15:00:03
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
It would be neat to see a fallen celestial come back to the side of light, though. Kind of like Darth Vader..
C-Fb
Anakin's fall to the Dark Side and his eventual redemption, taken together, is a very good example of how mortals may ultimately come to accept the truth of their evil ways and attempt to reform.
I don't think it's appropriate for celestials or fiends though. (Fixed) Alignments are a big issue when it comes to such concepts. Interestingly, the reduced focus on specific and fixed alignments in EBERRON suggests that the occurence of redeemed fiends in that setting might be slightly higher than in say, GREYHAWK. It really depends on how you, as the DM, define a fiend's alignment.
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Edited by - The Sage on 30 Nov 2005 15:02:06 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2005 : 09:48:40
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| It just seems wrong to me that celestials can fall(relatively) easy, while it takes a lot to redeem a fiend. It`s like the lower planes have a natural advantage. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2005 : 11:28:53
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
It just seems wrong to me that celestials can fall(relatively) easy, while it takes a lot to redeem a fiend. It`s like the lower planes have a natural advantage.
Well, like I said, it's easier to fall than to ascend. Ascending involves going against your nature and walking a straight and narrow path. Falling happens by just slipping a bit, then a bit more and a bit more... Falling can happen while trying to walk the straight and narrow, just by making a bad decision. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 01 Dec 2005 11:32:28 |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 01 Dec 2005 : 14:41:38
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Well, hate to use an outside example - but look how truthfully hard it would be to adhere to the Jedi code - no attachments, no love, never having any self-motivated thoughts - wow.. that's hard stuff. That's the kind of stricture that Celestials have to go through. Easy to see where one might slip.
Fiends, on the other hand, don't have many codes that ask the same restrictions. Sure Devils may march in formations - but that's about as orderly as they come. They still maim, destroy, etc., just for themselves. No higher calling really.
So, in essence, evil outsiders do have the natural advantage to adding more to their ranks. That's why Solars are uber-powerful! 
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2005 : 21:07:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
It just seems wrong to me that celestials can fall(relatively) easy, while it takes a lot to redeem a fiend. It`s like the lower planes have a natural advantage.
Well, like I said, it's easier to fall than to ascend. Ascending involves going against your nature and walking a straight and narrow path. Falling happens by just slipping a bit, then a bit more and a bit more... Falling can happen while trying to walk the straight and narrow, just by making a bad decision.
*nods* Kind of like the basic fact of like that things naturally fall into disorder, not the other way around. To use a mundane example, you have to work to clean your room, but it doesn't take much effort (if any) to just let it get messy.
Being good just plain takes more effort than being bad, or simply just doing whatever feels right to you without considering the impact it will have on others. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 03 Dec 2005 : 21:41:06
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Ah, but with the Idea of things falling naturally into disorder brings into being our Favortie subject; The Blood War.
In effect we once heard a plot hook (in a dragon magazine if we recall) about a Celestial Leading Armies of Devils against Demons. By the very nature it would be hard to see why a celestial could fall in that case, yet also so easy to see why, The Enemy of your Enemy does not make you and that Enemy the same or allies.
On a side note however, while it is more common (relatively anyways) for a Celestial to fall, it is not, a very common occurance. A minor example we use an old Game Called Ogre-Battle, in which good and bad choices (speficically 'honor' in batte of a sort) affected your alignment. Once a person (or in this case being) gets into a habit of behaving a particular way it is difficult to change radically, or even to slip a bit. Once one does it is then progressively easier, but it's taking that first step towards change (For Good or For Evil) which is the difficult thing to do.
Devils: Actually Devils do have a code of sorts, it's just... legal jargon that muddles things. More than simply falling into formation, it's all about agreements and promises, and the 'exact' terming of the nature of a contract. And when it comes to higher calling in what they do, compare them to their hate of Demons, and you'll find that they do follow a higher calling, they may be devious and underhanded, but they refuse to allow the Idea that Demons could beat them in terms of evil (Celestials have an easier time falling in with Devils than Demons). The manipulative backstabbing in the Court of Devils is less worse than the mass genocide of Demon Princes and their hosts against... well everyone.
There are (for Lack of a better term) atleast 3 fractions here, Celestials, Devil and Demons (IF you throw in the Yugoloths which is the NE between LE Devils and CE Demons you have 4)
*Takes a Breath* And in terms of Tanar'ri, Yes, the are the largest Family of Demons, There are displaced families of course, and depending on what sources you use, other minor hiearchies in the Abyss. As for the Baatezu, there are hints of another Race, a Elder race if you will, that was driven or roam the Underground of the.... Sixth Level of Hell, Ancient Baatorians as their called or hinted at. |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Dec 2005 : 03:07:03
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[What follows is an excerpt of a conversation between the tome archon of Mertion, Raziel, and a throne archon.]
Raziel: Let's get back to something you mentioned a few days ago... something about "the nobility of the spirit". Can I ask... what did you actually mean by that?
Throne Archon: I mean nobility, my lord. That special "something" that people are born. It is what makes them either good or evil, follow the ways of law or chaos, live rich or poor.
Raziel: I'm sorry... you said "born with"? Is that what you said? So, by that definition, can someone start out common but eventually become noble?
Throne Archon: Yes, that was what I said. And no, I do not think that can ever happen. At least, I've never heard of such a thing occuring anywhere.
Raziel: So then, could you possibly be a friend to someone who had say... committed a crime, or maybe they were poor?
Throne Archon: No! I doubt it. I mean... of course not!
Raziel: So you are saying that there is no hope of redemption for the weary sinner then?
Throne Archon: I'm sorry my lord, but I'm afraid I don't quite follow your question.
Raziel: Never mind. It's of little consequence, I suppose. Please, look out there, my friend. Look out over the Heavens, and tell me what you see?
Throne Archon: I see... I see a flight of silver dragons about to leave Mertion, as well as an army of dwarven petitioners marching in formation down below. Up there... there's also a number of astral-warjammers stationed up above, obviously waiting to get underway on some crucial mission of Goodness.
Raziel: And looking at these things, tell me, what do they represent to you?
Throne Archon: These things are the might of Law... the power of Good... the righteousness of the Seven Heavens. It is the force by which the we, the ultimate race of Goodness, can smite its enemies and create justice in the multiverse.
Raziel: Are you saying that justice is something that can be created?
Throne Archon: Of course. Yes, I am.
Raziel: How is that possible? Justice is justice, is it not? It has often been said that justice is the indefinable purpose of the Powers Above we look for in life. It's not something we can create.
Throne Archon: Please do not jest, my lord. Every non-power and mortal in Creation knows that justice is one of the spoils that comes with victory.
Raziel: So, might is right?
Throne Archon: It is the noble way, I believe?
Raziel: Says whom? According to whose definition?
Throne Archon: Zaphkiel. He says that nobility is often just blind confidence.
Raziel: And so, when you believe you are right, then anything you do is to be considered, right?
Throne Archon: Yes. Exactly. You have it my lord. Why do you shake you head that way, my lord?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 19:06:38
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
1) Fallen Celestials, going bibically several of the Archdevils/Dukes of Hell are Fallen Angels, especially if you the expanded ones that never made it to 3E, such as Lucifer.
I do like the 3.5 idea that Asmodeus, Dispater, and Mephistopheles were all celestials, warrior angels, before they became archdevils. And supposedly the whole race of erinyes were angels before they were devils.
Hmm... I wonder, then, if there are 'unfallen' erinyes still in the Upper Planes? |
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About fiends again
