| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Taelohn
Acolyte
36 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 00:16:25
|
With v.3.5 rules for mythals introduced as a type of epic spell in Lost Empires of Faerûn, I've often seen people trying to apply the personal-area factor to them (allowing them to have all the powers of a mythal follow them around wherever they go).
I'm not concerned with the rules-as-written (since forgetting to disallow that factor may have been an oversight), but rather the intent behind the idea: should this be at all possible?
I've seen people try to justify such things by calling them spellmantles (claiming that spellmantles were simply "personal mythals", and true mythals were just larger, fixed versions of mantle spells). Is there truth to that, or are spellmantles a different type of magic entirely?
I've always assumed the latter, though I don't really remember the 2E rules for spellmantles... in which book(s) could those be found?
|
|
|
Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 04:07:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Taelohn
…but rather the intent behind the idea: should this be at all possible?
No.
If a player wants to build a version of a Spellmantle that is similar to the effects of a Mythal but with a range of personal, well that’s all fine and dandy. But this would be an Epic Spell and one unique unto itself, not a subset of the Mythal Epic Spell.
quote:
Originally posted by Taelohn
I've seen people try to justify such things by calling them spellmantles (claiming that spellmantles were simply "personal mythals", and true mythals were just larger, fixed versions of mantle spells). Is there truth to that, or are spellmantles a different type of magic entirely?
There’s no truth to it that I’m aware of, although in a very, very general sense the idea has merit. It seems like what the people you are talking about are really trying to do is justify there desire to make super-characters, by ripping away a chunk of rules and using them out of context.
quote:
Originally posted by Taelohn
I've always assumed the latter, though I don't really remember the 2E rules for spellmantles... in which book(s) could those be found?
I believe Secrets of the Magister is a good place to start. Cormanthyr, Empire of Elves (starting on page 139; also: can be downloaded for free here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads) will give you a good base of knowledge on the (2nd Edition) rules for Mythals.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 21 Nov 2005 04:11:01 |
 |
|
|
Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 04:44:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
No.
If a player wants to build a version of a Spellmantle that is similar to the effects of a Mythal but with a range of personal, well that’s all fine and dandy. But this would be an Epic Spell and one unique unto itself, not a subset of the Mythal Epic Spell.
Mythal's a seed now-it might need to be explained otherwise in the setting, but it's definitely the best way to set it up rules wise.
quote:
Originally posted by Taelohn
There’s no truth to it that I’m aware of, although in a very, very general sense the idea has merit. It seems like what the people you are talking about are really trying to do is justify there desire to make super-characters, by ripping away a chunk of rules and using them out of context.
Or they could just be trying to figure out interesting things in a largely unused system(epic spells)...
quote:
Originally posted by Taelohn
I've seen people try to justify such things by calling them spellmantles (claiming that spellmantles were simply "personal mythals", and true mythals were just larger, fixed versions of mantle spells). Is there truth to that, or are spellmantles a different type of magic entirely?
They're definitely a different kind of magic in 3.5-see page 112 of Lost Empires of Faerun for how they're now dealt with. |
|
|
|
Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 04:57:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Mythal's a seed now-it might need to be explained otherwise in the setting, but it's definitely the best way to set it up rules wise.
Sure, for building Mythals. If you want to emulate spell mantles via the Epic Rules, I'd create a new seed and call it Spellmantle, with the Mythal Seed rules as a guideline for how to build and cost out (DC wise, GP wise, XP wise) an incremental-type creation system for an Epic Spell.
quote:
Originally posted by Taelohn
Or they could just be trying to figure out interesting things in a largely unused system(epic spells)...
Maybe, but probably not. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 21 Nov 2005 04:57:44 |
|
|
|
Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 05:06:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
Sure, for building Mythals. If you want to emulate spell mantles via the Epic Rules, I'd create a new seed and call it Spellmantle, with the Mythal Seed rules as a guideline for how to build and cost out (DC wise, GP wise, XP wise) an incremental-type creation system for an Epic Spell.
Why?
The epic spell creation rules are so abstract that there's no reason to apply setting based restrictions to them-none. It doesn't matter what seeds you use or what factors you apply as long as the end spell makes sense setting wise! You're splitting hairs over something that doesn't actually matter at all in game-it's like you're saying something can't be blue just because it started off pink before you added the rest of the ingredients to it! It's not like they're actually making mythals-they're just using the rules applications of it because it's there! |
|
|
|
Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 05:20:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
The epic spell creation rules are so abstract that there's no reason to apply setting based restrictions to them-none.
Shoot, why even use the rules? Just pitch the books in the trash and make it all up as you go!
Every character should be able to have whatever they want, whenever they want! There's no such thing as balance within an Epic Campaign, because balance (according to you) doesn't matter! The setting is waaaaaaay more important! 
Solid. 
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
|
|
|
Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 05:27:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
Shoot, why even use the rules? Just pitch the books in the trash and make it all up as you go!
I'm gearing up for my first World of Darkness 2.0 game soon-don't tempt me. 
quote:
Every character should be able to have whatever they want, whenever they want! There's no such thing as balance within an Epic Campaign, because balance (according to you) doesn't matter! The setting is waaaaaaay more important!
Where the hell did I say that? I'm just saying that there's no reason to split two possible uses of the mythal seed apart! |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 06:40:20
|
Well, I agree with Sanishiver that mantles in the Realms shouldn't be mythals by another name. They should be epic spells and have their own seed. Unfortunately, the 'mantle' spell presented in "Secrets of the Magister" is very difficult to replicate in 3E - and in fact, shouldn't be because it was horribly over-powerful and broken IMHO.
That's why I've been doing some reading up on Epic Magic and other bits and pieces. Another piece of the puzzle fell into place with the release of "Champions of Valor". Stay tuned ...
-- George Krashos
|
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 07:01:50
|
| 'Stay tuned'!?!? George, that's not fair! ;) |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
|
|
|
George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 11:15:40
|
Hey and as a rules designer I make a great bricklayer - that's the part that is "not fair"!
I'm not sure when it'll be finished ("it" being a prospective DRAGON article) but likely in the New Year when I've had a chance to mine the upcoming Spell Compendium. Let's hope they include some FR spells.
-- George Krashos
|
"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
|
|
|
warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 11:16:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well, I agree with Sanishiver that mantles in the Realms shouldn't be mythals by another name. They should be epic spells and have their own seed. Unfortunately, the 'mantle' spell presented in "Secrets of the Magister" is very difficult to replicate in 3E - and in fact, shouldn't be because it was horribly over-powerful and broken IMHO.
That's why I've been doing some reading up on Epic Magic and other bits and pieces. Another piece of the puzzle fell into place with the release of "Champions of Valor". Stay tuned ...
-- George Krashos
Can't wait to see it George. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
|
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 17:47:15
|
Ahem,
Let's tone down the attacks.
Thanks. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 22:28:53
|
Well, one of the things that came to my mind with reading the magic of incarnum rules is that this type of magic feels very much like spell mantles. You build them up and they stay until you replace them with a new form of magic. They take on a visual form representative of their ability. There are soulmelds that give you spell resistance, some that improve damage reduction, some that give the ability to fly, darkvision, or the ability to breathe water.
So, if someone wanted to, they could create a form of minor spell mantle using those rules. Maybe a class that is a variant of the incarnate, and the energy is weave energy not that of souls. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Mythals and spellmantles.
