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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Nov 2005 : 02:48:14
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My thoughts, copied from the Novels forum:
What intrigues me the most about this book, so far, is that apparently the author (Philip Athans) is weaving a lot of philosophy, esp. Objectivism (see the acknowledgments page) into the book--and from my own deduction, it's a philosophy that Athans seems to embrace, himself.
This might be a good thing, since I like hearing other people's philosophical viewpoints and seeing them materialize in literature, but the problem with this is that the protagonist might end up being a veritable mouthpiece for the author to, well, get preachy. And truth be told, I'm not sure I like Ivar Devorast so far--I'm not far into the book, but he does seem kinda preachy and aloof so far, esp. for a 22 year old. I tend to find that annoying even when I agree with such a person! I agree with some aspects of Objectivism but not all--indeed, I believe each person makes their own philosophy from a wide variety of sources. I've never read any philosophical work that I've agreed with 100%.
Still, I have to give Athans credit for trying to do something different with his book. I love the short, quick chapters, and I'm very much interested in a motif he is using--one of domineering mothers. After all, the need to please one's mother (or father) a universal theme that plenty of people can relate to (see City of Splendors as well). The descriptive prose is nice, and I also appreciate that the plot centers around craftsmen and creators (people who build the Realms) rather than, say, nobles who just sit around in villas or go adventuring for no apparent reason.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 18:06:47
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Well I startes this book today and finished this particular part.
I must say i'm really enjoying it. I like the format of the book and the small chapters. I like how this part darts around a variety of locations focusing on different characters. I'm finding the book quite gritty at the moment, very well done.
I quite like Pristoleth. Quite a unique being with his father being a fire elemental (I bet the conception was a hot bed of passion  ). The scenes with Pristoleth are quite dark and brutal in places... i like it  Especially in the tavern where he kills the whychfinder (what ARE these whychfinders?!)
On to Marek....Again, I liked how the alternate chapters each advanced five years or do through Mareks life and how he started admiring and looking up to the Zulkir, then onto his training (where he is identified as being more of an Enchanter) and then onto his mission in the swamps.
The swamp scene was great! This scene reminds me a little of the opening scene in the Sword and the Sorceror for some reason. I guess it's the overpowering of a powerful being and forcing\tricking it into service.
The "yellow ropes" intestines spilling out of the Red Wizard was a particularly favorite piece 
Great book so far!
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Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2005 : 21:40:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
I quite like Pristoleth. Quite a unique being with his father being a fire elemental (I bet the conception was a hot bed of passion ). The scenes with Pristoleth are quite dark and brutal in places... i like it Especially in the tavern where he kills the whychfinder (what ARE these whychfinders?!)
Indeed, I was wondering the same thing myself.
quote:
The "yellow ropes" intestines spilling out of the Red Wizard was a particularly favorite piece
That description was certainly imaginative, if gory. It reminded me uncomfortably of the first scene in the Baldur's Gate novel (a book, btw, that I thought went WAY overboard with gore). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2005 : 22:41:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
That description was certainly imaginative, if gory. It reminded me uncomfortably of the first scene in the Baldur's Gate novel (a book, btw, that I thought went WAY overboard with gore).
hehehe Well i quite like some of the more descriptive gore in novels. In moderation, it makes the book a little more mature, rather than just a sword clash style fight. There's a scene in part 3 of this book which I felt particularly gruesome (which i'll write about in a moment). |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2005 : 04:06:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
That description was certainly imaginative, if gory. It reminded me uncomfortably of the first scene in the Baldur's Gate novel (a book, btw, that I thought went WAY overboard with gore).
hehehe Well i quite like some of the more descriptive gore in novels. In moderation, it makes the book a little more mature, rather than just a sword clash style fight.
Yeah, but I have to admit I was disappointed in the amount of gore and grimness in the BG novel, because the original story wasn't THAT dark. Baldur's Gate was a relatively light-hearted, archtypal story of a young orphan who sets out into the world to find himself.
However, I was happy to find that Athans didn't go overboard with gore in this story, and even the more intense scenes just worked. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Proc
Acolyte
Canada
32 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2005 : 04:31:42
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| Maybe someone here can help me out. I'm about half-way through the book now, and I'm enjoying it so far. The different style has made it an interesting read, and I really like Marek Rymut as an antagonist. But, why was he dressed as a little girl in the first chapter? Was it to try and deceive the Zulkir? Was his mother simply cracked in the head? I got the strong impression that his mother knew what the life of a Red Wizard entailed, and desperately wanted her son to avoid that fate. But the Zulkir walked right in and said: “Rymut .... The boy?” And his mother replied: "Yes, Zulkir." So if it was a ploy, it wasn’t very effective. Can someone give me some perspective on this scene? Thanks. |
"May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house."
- George Carlin |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Nov 2005 : 04:55:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Proc
Maybe someone here can help me out. I'm about half-way through the book now, and I'm enjoying it so far. The different style has made it an interesting read, and I really like Marek Rymut as an antagonist. But, why was he dressed as a little girl in the first chapter? Was it to try and deceive the Zulkir? Was his mother simply cracked in the head? I got the strong impression that his mother knew what the life of a Red Wizard entailed, and desperately wanted her son to avoid that fate. But the Zulkir walked right in and said: “Rymut .... The boy?” And his mother replied: "Yes, Zulkir." So if it was a ploy, it wasn’t very effective. Can someone give me some perspective on this scene? Thanks.
I really wish I could help you, but that scene confused me, as well.
The fact that this little boy was dressed up as a girl for no apparent reason was...very creepy. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Nov 2005 : 11:18:37
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I think that Marek's mother was just really messed up, and that scene was meant to show that she has been that was since at least when his father disappeared.
So far, the book has essentially enjoyable. The first comment I have to make though, is that I am starting to really want to read a Realms book where someone is just a good honest person that wants to do good. It reminds me of the nineties comic book stories where traditional heroes were being injured or "killed" and replaced by more "modern" characters with a darker tone. By the time all of those stories wrapped up I was really glad to have the old traditional heroes back.
So far, Marek would have to be my favorite character, since he seems to the character that is the most comfortable with who he actually is. He is an ambitious Red Wizard, willing to manipulate and control others. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2005 : 22:00:31
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
So far, Marek would have to be my favorite character, since he seems to the character that is the most comfortable with who he actually is.
Very good way of putting it. I agree. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 17 Feb 2006 : 11:55:05
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| I don`t really like the prologue. It implies that the whole project will fail, and why should I read three whole books about a splendid fiasco? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Lanithro
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 16:57:31
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I quite liked the prologue. I've flicked back to it a few times already, wondering if any of the characters that get introduced might turn into that poor desolate chap fifty years on.
The intestine "ropes" raised a smile for inventive prose.
Also, I'm wondering if Marek's gay... or at least open-minded in preference. Something about how he was with the dragon in chapter 5 made me wonder, plus he got Nesneh to do what he wanted by fluttering his eyelashes at him. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 19:16:56
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| I like Terry Goodkind's work, personally. Not one of my FAVORITES, but readable. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 19:33:34
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Can't say the same. It's become very repetitive, and Richard's become a sanctimonious little git while other characters become codependent nitwits who exist only to give him applause and tell him how right and how wonderful he is.
Though that's not exactly new. I lost count of the times "You are a rare person, Richard Cypher" are uttered in the first book alone. It doesn't help, of course, that Goodkind seems to be suffering from delusions of grandeur ("I don't write fantasy; I write novels" -- wtf?). |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 19:38:50
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Heh. Now that you think about it, it does seem like Richard's developing somewhat of a messiah syndrome.
But still not as tiresome as Robert Jordan's stuff.
I still read both, of course. I've just read too many to stop now. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 19:44:17
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Cough,
Let's get this back on topic. No more discussion about a nonFR novel. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jul 2006 : 19:48:30
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Sorry!
*Runs away* |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 02:20:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Though that's not exactly new. I lost count of the times "You are a rare person, Richard Cypher" are uttered in the first book alone.
Actually, this does remind me of what I disliked about Ivar Devorast (the protagonist). This guy doesn't care how he presents himself physically or what he says to people, and yet just about all the major characters in this book think he's "special" upon meeting him, or even just by looking at him.
I mean, come on! It can be nice not to care about what other people think, period, but sooner or later that attitude should cost you. If the author's goal is to show how not caring what other people think gives you a certain freedom, making other characters like the protagonist anyway (and believe there is something "special" about him) undermines that, IMO--because frankly, Ivar isn't very likeable. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 18 Jul 2006 02:21:16 |
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Lanithro
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 23:38:15
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Oh I know. What is he!?
I guess that's why the Devorast sections I've come to so far have been written through Willem's eyes. Willem is about human enough, mundanely human enough, to compensate for Devorast's... bizarreness.
Ivar's lack of empathy, or his plain inscrutability, would be more irritatingly alienating for me if it wasn't for scores of the novel's characters also finding him practically autistic. |
Edited by - Lanithro on 18 Jul 2006 23:39:02 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 23:41:54
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*smiles* Honestly, what bothers me about certain characters isn't--ultimately--that they are unlikeable, but when a novel let's them off too easily for the way they act.
That's what's often called an "author's darling".
And like I said before, what was really irritating to me was how Ivar doesn't care at all about how he looks or presents himself, yet this one female character later in the story wants to have sex with him as soon as she sees him (from afar, at that). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 18 Jul 2006 23:45:01 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jul 2006 : 23:55:03
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| Yeah, but to be fair RF, that character seemed a bit off herself . . . in fact, the book was a collection of characters that are a bit off. I actually am interested to read the next book, just to see where all of this quirkyness is going. But I can understand it being off putting, as I waded through the first part of this book thinking . . . okay, what is the point of all of this, before Ivar kind of took the fore as the protagonist. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jul 2006 : 01:47:49
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Yeah, but to be fair RF, that character seemed a bit off herself.
True...but I'm not sure if I'm satisfied by that explanation. Some of the more level-headed characters thought there was "something special" (whatever that means) about Ivar upon meeting him, as well, like that Shou Lung woman and the man who took Ivar on as a student. I definitely got a vibe saying, "If you don't see something special and great about Ivar, you're just an unwashed collectivist plebe like everyone else!"
Again, just my opinion. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 19:03:59
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| The very short chapters made the story appear so choppy. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Whisper of Waves: Prologue & Part 1 (Chapters 1-7)
