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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 00:31:43
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This has been something that's occupied my thoughts for the last month or two and I've come to the conculsion that Elminster can't die. Not that he won't die, there are several ways he could die or get writen out, the climatic epic battle that he sacrifices himself for all the Realms (which you might believe he's already done numerous times and for one reason or another Mystra hasn't allowed him to pass on) or he retreats and does a Yoda, fading away to whatever afterlife awaits him in the arms of his successor, or he leaves the Realms "behind" to ascend to some higher level of existence that's entitles near or full godhood.
However, all those possibilities aside, the current state of the Realms just doesn't allow for him to die. Remove the extraplanar threats that he supposively keeps at bay from overrunning Faerun, the current state of Faerun is 1 big Cold War. Sure you have skirmishs that are called "wars" but there's been no World War. No huge group of evil nations banding together to overwhelm the good guys. In such a scenerio, just like our own World Wars, the "good guys" had to call on friends to defend themselves again this overwhelming force.
We've never had all the big whigs at the head of an army with five to ten level 15-20 apprentices each in one confrontation slinging enlarged maximized meteor swarms. The battles have always been won and fought for the most part on the mundane levels (with the sword.) So for the Realms the battles they've had have been big, but the baddies have never fully committed themselves to a war effort. Such a war effort would force some huge comfortations, so that would not just put an end to Elminster, but to several of the bad and good characters we've all know and love (or love to hate.)
Such an event would be more Realms shaking, more Realms altering then even the avatar trilogy and would totally change the existence of several nations.
I'm not sure I like a Realms like that.
But then again I'm not sure I want the Realms that'll exist in 10-20 years when a completely "new" creative team of writers/developers have taken over the Realms and make it their own instead of what it's been these past years. But then again, at the rate Wizards of the Coast is going, there might not be a D&D or Realms line in 10-20 years, so I won't think about the days when today's popular/trusted writers aren't on the Realms anymore. :)
I'll go back to lurking, I just needed to get that off my chest. :)
Oh yeah, hi everyone. 
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 07 Oct 2005 00:35:15
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 00:43:17
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Glad to know you feel that way! 
I agree... though I had never thought of it as a cold war before, it is interesting to consider that. It seems that no matter what wars rage on, the big baddies always do survive. And what makes it worse - all the empires have fairly decent economies going right now, so it might never fizzle out like the Cold War did...
Very interesting concept... is Elminster the UN then?
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 00:45:51
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Hmm.
I've always wondered about general attitude toward Realms-shaking events -- and there've been a lot of those in the recent novels, what the hell? -- along the line of, do people oppose them because it's simply more convenient for gaming? (Troy Denning's Destruction'R'Us fest rubbed off the wrong way for a lot of people.) But... if the Realms stays like this, wouldn't it simply stagnate? IMO, if Elminster does that much for the Realms, then I think the removal of him -- and that of several other major "balance-checking" figures -- would make things a lot more interesting. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 00:56:10
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Interesting doesn't mean attractive.
At the time I considered Shade's return and the melting of the ice a Realms-shaking event. I don't anymore. Why? They completely dropped it. None of the current or new products really show that Shade's return had any impact on the all of Faerun. We're lucky to get even a sentence about it in the new novels.
It's been forgotten and abandoned with no reprocussions or linger effect aside from a place on the map that didn't have anything other then sand, now has an evil city.
I have no reason to believe Rage of the Dragons will have a big impact on any regions of the Realms not covered in the trilogy and anthologies. I believe it'll be buried just like Shade was for the next big marketting push, the Return of the Elves.
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 02:41:14
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I guess that depends on your definition of 'impact'.
If region-wide drought and famine don't count as an impact, then I can see where you're coming from.
If on the other hand by impact you mean Faerűn-wide war, pestilence, chaos and destruction; well then I can see what you mean, since all those buzz-words pretty much apply only to Evereska and the armies of Waterdeep and Evermeet that got themselves slaughtered, as well as Shade itself.
That said, for those of us who place more importance on the Realms of our home campaigns than the published Realms all by itself, the Shadovar are very much a presence.
J. Grenemyer |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Andric
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 04:40:35
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Why do you think that Elminster's death would have to be a cataclysmic event in which many heroes are killed?
It's always been my belief that he, like any other epic Realms personality, could be destroyed or lost and not have all to great an impact on Faerun in its entirety. Sure, the immediate area around him would see definite change, but there's always a new hero for the 'mundane' people to rally around.
Also, I think the main reason the huge war you're referring to, where the big Evil storms into the land of Good in an attempt to dominate, is simply never going to happen. Evil is everywhere in the Realms, but that doesn't mean that every evil being or presense serves the same cause. It could be that certain evil-aligned countries could stand to gain from allying with good-aligned countries in order to repel the attackers, or vice versa.
Even if such a thing were to take place, you still wouldn't see level 15's, 20's, and so-on leading the battles. It would be those mundane swords you spoke of, as there aren't as many Khelben's, Elminster's, and Drizzt's to lead as there are knowledgable, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th level fighters and clerics and so forth.
I agree with your comment about the Shades, though. I've been rather disappointed at the lack of overall involvement they've had as of late. |
Fairies wear boots, man.
You've got to believe me! |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 11:14:36
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| Oh, yeah, that's why I think the recent RSE are ridiculous: they're episodic. They happen in one trilogy, maybe plus an anthology, and then they are never mentioned again. Threat from the Sea (if you count that as a RSE, and hey, quite a few places were affected), the aforementioned return of Shade, and all. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 11:46:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Hmm.
I've always wondered about general attitude toward Realms-shaking events -- and there've been a lot of those in the recent novels, what the hell? -- along the line of, do people oppose them because it's simply more convenient for gaming? (Troy Denning's Destruction'R'Us fest rubbed off the wrong way for a lot of people.) But... if the Realms stays like this, wouldn't it simply stagnate? IMO, if Elminster does that much for the Realms, then I think the removal of him -- and that of several other major "balance-checking" figures -- would make things a lot more interesting.
I agree with you...but I think it would actually change the Realms for the worst.
One of the big things about the Realms has always been that it provided a large base to build upon yourself, a relatively stable base, and if the Realms is spiralling into and through a great war, then that stability is lost-it'd be like later-run World of Darkness stuff, where you knew there was a definite plotline going on, and every supplement brought cries of "Oh, she's dead now, too..."...it changes the way we play in the setting greatly, and I like the Realms for that as it is. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 12:13:50
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Most of the Evil guys in the realms seem to be rather cautious they havent tried to do a Hitler and try and rule the world (and in doing so over extend themselves). There have been wars where the bad guys have attacked their neighbours ie Zhentil keep vs Dales and Thay vs its various neighbours but there has never been a real "World war" or event a Contiential war (The only one that comes close is the Shoon Empires battle with Cormyr)
and the villians never seem to get anywhere with these wars.
One of the problems that I see developing with the Realms is that the bad guys never seem to win. The good guys always win or at the very least stop the bad guys evil plot. While Fzoul or Manshoon might not be able to slay the Chosen of Mystra they can surely bump off those under them such as the Knights of Myth Drannor, the Rulers of the various Dales etc even if its just through sheer persistence. The good guys have to be lucky all the time, the bad guys only have to be lucky once.
To make things worse the alot of FR villians have come across as imberciles. The Spellfire Novels being the worst example (although apaprently this had more to do with TSRs code of Ethics than how Ed wanted to portray Manshoon and to a lesser extent Fzoul) Through out the novels Manshoon comes across as a right prat who has no idea how to run Zhentil Keep or the Zhentarim despite the fact he some how manged to have enough brains to found the Zhentarim (a criminal organisation that spans the contient) and more less sieze control of Zhentil Keep. So I was quite happy to see Manshoon shifted aside and Fzoul take over the Zhentarim and Zhentil Keep. Fzoul at least in alot of ways comes across as a more comptent villian.
He successfully set up his own church of Bane in Zhentil Keep and managed to fend off the Orthodox Banites trying to replace him.
Gets himself into a position where hes near the top of the Zhents
Is prgamatic enough to switch between 5 deities in 15 years (Bane 1.0 , Cyric, Mask (Briefly) Xvim and finally Bane 2.0) Fzoul is clearly the ultimate Survivor when it comes to the Forgotten Realms.
In Fzoul we have a worthy (and capable)leader of the Zhents.
Hmm I seem to have dragged this thread off track hopefully SirU will forgive me  |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 07 Oct 2005 12:14:22 |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 17:36:48
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Greetings to All,
A very interesting thread to ponder! I have never been a huge fan of the huge Realms-shaking plotlines myself... I prefer more regional or personal storylines. However, this thread got me thinking about Shade and why we have not heard much from them. At the end of the novels, I assumed that Shade was rebuilding it's strength and getting a better understanding of the events/capabilities/powers of the new Realms they found themselves in. I believe that they are "laying-low" for a while and planning their next move. In my campaign, Shade will not play a major part. I am not a big fan of the whole "Return of Shade" plotline... |
ShadowJack |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 17:50:58
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| Well, don't write off the Shadovar return quite yet . . . Paul S Kemp will be writing a follow up storyline soon, and who knows what will happen there . . . |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 21:09:17
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
A very interesting thread to ponder! I have never been a huge fan of the huge Realms-shaking plotlines myself... I prefer more regional or personal storylines.
Me too. :) I don't like the implication that storylines are only important if the Book Department has deemed them "Realms-shaking".
And to take a shot at the Last Mythal trilogy again (yet again!), for all "epicness" of the story, the characters involved are actually pretty bland and boring. It feels as if the story is more important than the people involved. But that's not true for ALL RSE novels: I love the Rogue Dragons books so far because the author seems to care about the characters just as much as the event itself. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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RAKKIR
Seeker
61 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2005 : 21:39:50
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I agree. All these "Realms Shaking" events happen in their own trilogy and then nothing is ever mentioned about them again. Since the Avatar Trilogy the only one I have heard mentioned again is what is going on in Cormyr where the recent wars are still said to have an effect on the country. Why aren't the Sembians or the Zhents all over Cormyr right now that it is weakened for instance? There has to be a lot going on behind the scenes that we are not aware of. Which once more brings us back to the whole "locked in statis, cold-war" thing. Things where whole nations states or powerful entities are greatly reduced in power. You would expect there would be "balance of power" shifts.
I suspect this is because, frankly, there are TOO MANY cooks in the kitchen at TSR now to create any overeaching "themes" or all but the barest of co-ordination between them. I also think this is driven by marketing. Pump out lots of "epic storyline" books as they appeal to a more general audience than a hardcore FR fan-book like "the tales of Linda the Dressmaker of Mistledale." I would honestly LOVE a book like that, on the day-to-day life/economy/culture of Faerun, but I expect it will NEVER happen.
For instance, I recently finished reading "The Two Swords" which is the latest Drizzit book. Why isin't WATERDEEP concerned about what's going on with Obould? Surely they must be. Couldn't we at least here some MENTION of them? Something along the lines of Alustriel mentioning "Waterdeep is limited in how they can help, as are the people of Silverymoon, due to the losses suffered recently in the defense of Evereska." I do believe the timelines are such that Obould is supposed to happen AFTER the return of Shade right?
And I also echo the sentiment about the bad-guys loosing all the time. It was said above the "Bad guys only have to get lucky once." DAMN STRAIGHT! I'm constantly tired of seeing the Good Guys winning because the Bad Guys are played as buffons and idoits. I know this USED to be based on the old TSRs "Good must win" creed but WOTC is supposed to have changed that. However I am not seeing it. It frustrates me to no end that TALENTED writers have their hands tied behind their backs because good must win. Quite frankly, the Phaerim SHOULD have won and taken out Evereska. The Phaerim were played like chumps. The simple fact that so many of them were killed by swordsman and arrows (espicially given their innate flying ability) tells you this. Likewise, I recently finished the second book in the "Last Mythal" series. Tell me again how the elves managed to "suprise" the Zhents in their camp again? Considering that Skyla Darkhope was in command of the army? No offense, I used to think Skyla was some hard-core BAD-ASS....now I see she's just an incompetent CHUMP. Ohh boy, Fzoul slapped her after her mistake. That totally makes up for her GROSS incomeptence. You know the Elven Army is what..two miles away. You know that elves see far better in low-light then humans. So...you just assume you have initiative, will attack in the morning, and post very few sentries. ARGHHH!
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 00:19:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Andric
Why do you think that Elminster's death would have to be a cataclysmic event in which many heroes are killed?
Because Mystra has saved Elminster and her Chosen from death more then once. His complete demise has to serve a higher purpose and if JUST he dies, there becomes a large power vacuum for the good of the Realm (not to mention all those threats he takes care of that common folk aren't aware of.)
If Elminster goes, a whole bunch of other baddies have to go with him so that Mystera's hands are tied for once. If Fzoul, Manshoon (evil clones), and Szass Tam are going to be gone for good, the Elminster, Simbul, and Dove have to stay gone too. And don't think for a second Storm would come out of this "pretty" anymore, as a matter of fact it might damage her mentally so that she doesn't heal or fix whatever scaring/maiming might occur.
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 01:59:07
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quote:
Originally posted by RAKKIR
And I also echo the sentiment about the bad-guys loosing all the time. It was said above the "Bad guys only have to get lucky once." DAMN STRAIGHT! I'm constantly tired of seeing the Good Guys winning because the Bad Guys are played as buffons and idoits. I know this USED to be based on the old TSRs "Good must win" creed but WOTC is supposed to have changed that. However I am not seeing it. It frustrates me to no end that TALENTED writers have their hands tied behind their backs because good must win. Quite frankly, the Phaerim SHOULD have won and taken out Evereska. The Phaerim were played like chumps. The simple fact that so many of them were killed by swordsman and arrows (espicially given their innate flying ability) tells you this. Likewise, I recently finished the second book in the "Last Mythal" series. Tell me again how the elves managed to "suprise" the Zhents in their camp again? Considering that Skyla Darkhope was in command of the army? No offense, I used to think Skyla was some hard-core BAD-ASS....now I see she's just an incompetent CHUMP. Ohh boy, Fzoul slapped her after her mistake. That totally makes up for her GROSS incomeptence. You know the Elven Army is what..two miles away. You know that elves see far better in low-light then humans. So...you just assume you have initiative, will attack in the morning, and post very few sentries. ARGHHH!
Yeah, I was rooting for Sauron in the LotR trilogy, not to mention Lord Foul in the Thomas Covenant novels.
Reality check time: the bad guys aren't supposed to 'win' in heroic fantasy. That's why it's called 'heroic fantasy' - the heroes win. If you want a nihilistic realms full of bad things and evil on top, then you quite simply aren't going to get it from the FR novels. And neither should you expect to. Others far more eloquent than I have talked at length about the heroic fantasy genre, the themes that underpin it and its prominence in fantasy fiction.
Mind you, I think it's a reflection on global youth society these days that being 'bad' is equated with being 'cool' or 'special'. Evil shouldn't be attractive, and evil 'winning' shouldn't be something we should be enjoying. And yes, I say that in expectation of the inevitable comments that 'life isn't like that' and 'bad things happen' and 'good and bad are yin/yang/part of life' etc. Whilst knowing all that, it doesn't mean I should be happy that it happens, otherwise I'd be upset that terrorist groups around the world aren't doing MORE to maim and kill innocents.
Oooh, I've gotten all moralistic all of a sudden. I'm going now.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 02:04:10
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George, well said and completly agree with you. One thing though . . . as a lawyer are you allowed to root for the good guys?  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 04:48:35
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I should probably mention that I'm not one of those who would like Elminster to die, even though yes, it'd make an interesting story. I know he annoys some people, but I have certain sentiments towards the Realms, and the FR just wouldn't be the same without him. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 12:29:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I should probably mention that I'm not one of those who would like Elminster to die, even though yes, it'd make an interesting story. I know he annoys some people, but I have certain sentiments towards the Realms, and the FR just wouldn't be the same without him.
I concur. The realms without Elminster........I just can`t imagine that. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 12:34:28
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quote:
Originally posted by RAKKIR
For instance, I recently finished reading "The Two Swords" which is the latest Drizzit book. Why isin't WATERDEEP concerned about what's going on with Obould? Surely they must be. Couldn't we at least here some MENTION of them? Something along the lines of Alustriel mentioning "Waterdeep is limited in how they can help, as are the people of Silverymoon, due to the losses suffered recently in the defense of Evereska." I do believe the timelines are such that Obould is supposed to happen AFTER the return of Shade right?
As far as I know the hunters blades happened before the return of the archwizards. And in that series the good guys don`t win just like that. Obould has what he wanted. He got a pounding, but he`s founded his kingdom, and the silver marches don`t have the troops it would take to oust him. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 13:26:03
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Bravo! I must tender my respect to Mr. Krashos! Your statement exactly reflects how I have been feeling for the past ten years! As an early fan of Heroic Fantasy I am getting tired of all the "Anti-Heroes". The evil should be intelligent and difficult to overcome, but it will be overcome! The very nature of evil defeats itself, it is not for the greater good of society. Any culture/society or nation that has abused or controlled its people has not stood for very long in the course of history. Even civilizations, when its people become selfish and out for themselves tend to fall or decline. With evil, corruption is inevitable and that always leads to the fall of any leader or culture. Evil does not inspire loyalty, it induces fear.
Enough of my blathering! My point is this: Evil is self-defeating! The very atrocities that evil leaders use to subdue their people will be the impetus that drives the people or person to take action. I do not believe that all of the villains in FR have been portrayed as buffoons, but that they fell due to their own actions. The old principle of "You reap what you sow"... |
ShadowJack |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 08 Oct 2005 : 13:35:03
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| My Apologies! One more thing in response to Mr. Krashos, he said "Evil should not be attractive and evil winning should not be something we want". (Really need to learn to do that quote thing...) In my humble opinion this is true. How many of us would want to follow a beholder? Or a Tanar'ri Lord? This would be the worst, most debased being ever seen, with none of the human conscience to temper its actions! This is why evil most often loses... It always underestimates the power of love, kindness, self-sacrifice, loyalty, etc... |
ShadowJack |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2005 : 01:58:03
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| Or perhaps Elminster can never die due to, as THO so beautifully paraphrased it, Elminster being "Ed’s Ego-Fulfillment Perfectly Tireless Lover And All-Powerful Fix-The-World-While-Being-A-Jackass Wizard"... And as THO also pointed out, most of the customers MUST like it that way since they continue to buy the books... Hence, as long as he remains marketable, he will never ever die... I know, I know, a horribly mercantile and real world answer for what I'm guessing was a more "in-game" directed question, but I suspect it is the correct one nonetheless... However, be warned true FR-believer that I count myself amongst the dark legion of Eliminster moan-ers and kvetch-ers, and try to sweep the notion of such a uber munchkin NPC under the rug as much as possible... 'Course that being said, notice that I still use and follow the FR campaign system ... |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2005 : 02:36:20
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Yeah, I was rooting for Sauron in the LotR trilogy, not to mention Lord Foul in the Thomas Covenant novels.
Reality check time: the bad guys aren't supposed to 'win' in heroic fantasy. That's why it's called 'heroic fantasy' - the heroes win. If you want a nihilistic realms full of bad things and evil on top, then you quite simply aren't going to get it from the FR novels. And neither should you expect to. Others far more eloquent than I have talked at length about the heroic fantasy genre, the themes that underpin it and its prominence in fantasy fiction.
Mind you, I think it's a reflection on global youth society these days that being 'bad' is equated with being 'cool' or 'special'. Evil shouldn't be attractive, and evil 'winning' shouldn't be something we should be enjoying. And yes, I say that in expectation of the inevitable comments that 'life isn't like that' and 'bad things happen' and 'good and bad are yin/yang/part of life' etc. Whilst knowing all that, it doesn't mean I should be happy that it happens, otherwise I'd be upset that terrorist groups around the world aren't doing MORE to maim and kill innocents.
Oooh, I've gotten all moralistic all of a sudden. I'm going now.
-- George Krashos
The Bad guys have to win some time otherwise one day your going to run off bad guys. Lets face it the Bad guys have one in the past. Manshoon didnt found the ruler of Zhentil keep and the Zhentarim by handing out cute fluffy kittens to the masses did he?
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2005 : 04:51:29
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Evil definitely wins sometimes, but what I think George is getting at is that people generally don't want to read, say, a novel wherein evil wins and the goodly folk win *no* victory.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2005 : 04:56:13
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| Think about The Empire Strikes Back. The Empire won at the end of that one, yes. But if the good guys had either a) been wiped out or b) given up their fight against them, the story would have been pointless. I think that's the point. |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2005 : 06:04:26
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| Few would dispute that Good should always triumph over Evil... But I think it comes down to the fact that Evil is generally portrayed as a mob of bumbling idiots... Great heroes need great villains to defeat... Villains as (if not more) competent, intelligent, and skilled as the heroes are... There is no glorious triumph in beating up the Three Stooges... |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2005 : 07:46:23
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| I use to weite some sotries as a hobby, and I like to write some where the good ones win, and some when the evil ones do. And I must recognize that even to me the ones with the happy ending are more enjoyable, than the others... |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2005 : 15:14:44
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Part of this thread revolved around the fact that there are no countries being seriously impacted by wars. I can see that there are several countries that are being represented as being impacted by war. Unther is perhaps the most affected by war right now, followed closely by Cormyr. Both countries are in a state of finding a new identity for themselves as a result of the vast changes happening in their cultures. Tethyr was impacted by a war, but in a more positive manner (where Cormyr wanes, Tethyr now reigns again). Then there's Damara which was just starting to recover from a decades long conflict, and is now being invaded again. The culture of Thesk has been changed by the influx of refugees from the horde invasion. Finally, Chessenta has undergone a series of civil wars which have left the countryside divided.
In the end, the northern and southern realms have not changed much, but the eastern realms is in a huge state of rebirth and regrowth. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2005 : 15:47:51
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sleyvas!
Well MET!
Ed of the Greenwood remembers your years of contributions on the Realms-list fondly, and has missed you!
love,
THO |
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Winterfox
Senior Scribe
895 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2005 : 15:56:38
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Yeah, I was rooting for Sauron in the LotR trilogy, not to mention Lord Foul in the Thomas Covenant novels.
I was rooting for Melkor/Morgoth. He was a lot more interesting than, say, Manwe. :p How would you like to explain the popularity of, say, George R. R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire, anyway, if you think people should adore tales of heroes winning all the time so much?
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Mind you, I think it's a reflection on global youth society these days that being 'bad' is equated with being 'cool' or 'special'. Evil shouldn't be attractive, and evil 'winning' shouldn't be something we should be enjoying. And yes, I say that in expectation of the inevitable comments that 'life isn't like that' and 'bad things happen' and 'good and bad are yin/yang/part of life' etc. Whilst knowing all that, it doesn't mean I should be happy that it happens, otherwise I'd be upset that terrorist groups around the world aren't doing MORE to maim and kill innocents.
I'm sorry, but way to miss the point. Besides, "global youth community" bit? I can't help but find that condescending. And please don't tell people what they should or should not enjoy on moralistic grounds. That's... a bit much.
I can enjoy greedy bastards, manipulative sadists, immoral genius in fiction perfectly without feeling the same for people of similar moral calibre in real life. What I like in fiction, and what I like in RL, are two very different things and, while I can't claim to speak for everyone, I think I'm speaking for a good number of people who feel the same. In real life, I want my to be happy, comfortable, and well-to-do. But do I want to read about people who go through day after day of successes, wallow in luxuries, have no flaws and make no mistakes? No. It'd be boring. Likewise, I don't want to read about heroes all the time, even if they possess qualities I'd admire in real life. If it's written well, I'd enjoy a book where the antagonists win and conquer the world. I'm sure everybody here can seperate fantasy from reality, yes?
Besides, a lot of time the antagonists and villains are a lot more intelligent and fascinating than their heroic counterparts, anyway. (I think Sarya's a great deal less dull than Araevin and his party put together, for instance. That doesn't say much, but still.)
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Evil is self-defeating! The very atrocities that evil leaders use to subdue their people will be the impetus that drives the people or person to take action. I do not believe that all of the villains in FR have been portrayed as buffoons, but that they fell due to their own actions. The old principle of "You reap what you sow"...
Eh, only if the evil leader in question is an idiot or a Dark Lord of Doom and Destruction #234,081 out of Generic Fantasy Novel #780,999,232. You can be evil and intelligent, you know. Think of Zahn's Grand Admiral Thrawn, who doesn't jump to punish a ship-hand just because he couldn't capture the Falcon (but tells him to research/come up with a way to get around that trick pulled by Han Solo next time). Soldiers and minions are exhaustible. Holding a public execution or torture every day is really stupid.
That's why I dislike so many evil overlords. They're idiots, cliched, and boring. Come on, give me the ones that are reasonable, politically acute, and who know how to manipulate public opinion.
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How many of us would want to follow a beholder? Or a Tanar'ri Lord?
See above about fantasy being seperate from reality. That's a simple concept, I'd think.
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This is why evil most often loses... It always underestimates the power of love, kindness, self-sacrifice, loyalty, etc...
Rofles. See above about evil overlords who are the products of a lazy author who's pulled said overlord out of the "generic archetype number five" box. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2005 : 17:22:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Winterfox
Eh, only if the evil leader in question is an idiot or a Dark Lord of Doom and Destruction #234,081 out of Generic Fantasy Novel #780,999,232. You can be evil and intelligent, you know. Think of Zahn's Grand Admiral Thrawn, who doesn't jump to punish a ship-hand just because he couldn't capture the Falcon (but tells him to research/come up with a way to get around that trick pulled by Han Solo next time). Soldiers and minions are exhaustible. Holding a public execution or torture every day is really stupid.
Actually, I think it was Luke's X-Wing, not the Falcon.
But you do bring up some good points. The best bad guys are those that are calm and controlled, who act according to their intellect and not their passion. I enjoy reading about bad guys like that. Those are the ones that are effective. The best bad guys are the ones that leave you marveling at their cleverness and ingenuity, not the ones who happily kill everyone in sight.
I think a Thrawn-style villian (particularly a mage) could be a very effective counter for Elminster... |
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Why Elminster Can't Die..
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