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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Sep 2005 : 07:45:40
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This is one for everyone that uses the new cosmology. We already know that there is a Realmsian version of the demon lords and arch devils, as well as the celestial paragons, but what I am wondering is if there are Realmsian versions of more obscure planar singular personalities, for example, the Princes of Elemental Evil, or the Slaad Lords. What does everyone think.
I have held off on the Slaad Lords since there is no Limbo in the Realms, and no plane of absolute Chaos. But the elemental planes exist in several cosmologies, and we know there is a Realmsian version of Kossuth, Ishtishia, Grumbar, and Akadi.
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2005 : 14:27:43
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Well... I don't know if you play any of the PS2 games concerning Forgotten Realms, but the main bad guy in Demon Stone is a slaad lord. He is in an eternal battle with a Githyanki queen. Kind of crazy. I generally just use the old 1st edition singularities.
I mean, the Demon Lords have all be portrayed in the Realms many times over... and Neverwinter nights uses Mephistopheles as the main bad guy in Hordes of the Underdark. And most likely, the princes of Elemental Evil exits too (Ogremoch, Ibix, etc).
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2005 : 14:56:18
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I have held off on the Slaad Lords since there is no Limbo in the Realms, and no plane of absolute Chaos. But the elemental planes exist in several cosmologies, and we know there is a Realmsian version of Kossuth, Ishtishia, Grumbar, and Akadi.
Ed's already said that Limbo exists -- see his reply for the 27th January 2005. And although the FRCS and PGtF do not directly mention it, Eric references Limbo in Serpent Kingdoms.
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 01:34:33
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My simple solution to the Limbo question is to say that the Supreme Throne is the plane of Limbo. Cyric simply changed the name when he took over the plane in 1368 DR after getting kicked out of the Fugue Plane.
It was the home of the slaadi long before Cyric took over. It had to be called something before Cyric dubbed it his "Supreme Throne." If it was indeed called Limbo, it is an elegant solution to the whole problem. |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 01:41:49
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We know there are slaad lords that are unique to the Realms. Bazim-Gorag from Champions of Ruin is one such slaad lord (lords?).
I like to think that Ygorl and Ssendam have incarnations in the Realms as well. But I have no proof.
As for the Elemental Princes of Evil, I would say they have incarnations in the realms too. Ogremoch in fact is mentioned in the 3E sourcebook Underdark.
There are definitely Realms references to the various Genie leaders, as the genies are very important in Zakhara, and Zakhara shares the same elemental planes as Faerūn. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 02:12:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
I like to think that Ygorl and Ssendam have incarnations in the Realms as well. But I have no proof.
Hmmm... and given Ssendam's penchant for planar wanderings, I'm curious about the fact that he hasn't popped up somewhere at sometime.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 02:52:27
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And Ssendam is the Lord of Insanity, what better place than the Realms for him?
I'm sure that if Ygorl and Ssendam still exist in the current canon, then they will have places in the Realms. Plus, Slaads did exist in the game Neverwinter Nights.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 03:11:45
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Grey, thanks for reminding me of the Ogremoch comment in Underdark . . . hm . . . I wonder what the story is about the plane of Limbo in the Realms. While I actually do like the Realms having its own cosmology, Slaad are too cool and way too identified with the essense of Chaos not to have their own plane.
And of course lest we forget, Paul does mention Limbo in the Erevis Cale books, but I had taken that as possibly the Limbo from outside of the Realms cosmology . . . but hey, why make things more complicated? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 04:20:19
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| Ed has also said that it's the Limbo of the Wheel/Ring in his reply to me in January 27th of this year. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 04:50:33
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
While I actually do like the Realms having its own cosmology, Slaad are too cool and way too identified with the essense of Chaos not to have their own plane.
There was an "old" theory proposed on the PSML about three years ago that stated (when the exactness of a plane of Limbo in the FR cosmology was still murky) the slaadi might be products of the regions where the Far Realm intrudes upon our reality -- an indeterminable space of reality-altering chaos.
Given that Eric's City of Splendors: Waterdeep tome now also mentions the Far Realm in the FR cosmology, this proposed theory could have some basis in your campaign, provided it was fleshed out a little more.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 04:51:47
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Yeah, I just read that post myself. In other words, even though its not part of the Cosmology, there are still links to traditional Limbo within the Realms cosmology (the obvious places being the Supreme Throne.
In the context of the original question then, there are not Realmsian versions of Slaad lords though, but the actual Slaad lords from the Great Wheel might pop in themselves to see what is going on.
And of course Champions of Ruin points out a Slaad lord native to the Realms itself. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 04:56:35
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
In the context of the original question then, there are not Realmsian versions of Slaad lords though, but the actual Slaad lords from the Great Wheel might pop in themselves to see what is going on.
Of course... there's always Sigil, which we know is the same City of Doors everywhere regardless of the cosmology.
It's entirely possible that Ygorl or Ssendam (as they are in the Great Wheel) have used the portals from the Cage and entered the Realms at specific points for reasons only their chaotic minds can fathom.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 09:52:38
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| What are the celestial versions of the Arch-devils and Demon princes? The strongest celestials I know of are the Solar but I doubt one of them could stand against the likes of Dispater or Graz`zt. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 10:54:35
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| The Celestial Paragons are listed in the Book of Exalted Deeds, and the Player's Guide to Faerun says that they do exist in the Torilian cosmology. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 14:21:20
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
The strongest celestials I know of are the Solar but I doubt one of them could stand against the likes of Dispater or Graz`zt.
Or maybe that's just what they want you to believe  .
Remember, most arch-devils are masters of information manipulation -- they excel at obfuscation... making more of themselves that what they may actually be.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Edited by - The Sage on 22 Sep 2005 14:22:24 |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 14:52:24
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And obviously Solar's are quite powerful - remember Malkizid was just a Solar who decided evil was a lot more fun, you know? He ended up being an Arch-Devil and a Yugoloth lord... good stuff!
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 18:43:33
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
And obviously Solar's are quite powerful - remember Malkizid was just a Solar who decided evil was a lot more fun, you know? He ended up being an Arch-Devil and a Yugoloth lord... good stuff!
C-Fb
There are astral devas who have become arch-devils, so that`s not so impressive.(yugoloth lord? When? How?) |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 18:49:17
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
The strongest celestials I know of are the Solar but I doubt one of them could stand against the likes of Dispater or Graz`zt.
Or maybe that's just what they want you to believe .
Remember, most arch-devils are masters of information manipulation -- they excel at obfuscation... making more of themselves that what they may actually be.
Last time I checked Graz`zt wasn`t a devil. He would be most upset to hear you call him that. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 02:06:52
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Last time I checked Graz`zt wasn`t a devil. He would be most upset to hear you call him that.
Eh...
It's his speech that's the problem .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 23 Sep 2005 02:08:31 |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 07:53:39
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
What are the celestial versions of the Arch-devils and Demon princes?
The Archons are lead by the celestial Hebdomad comprising Zaphkiel, Domiel, Pistis Sophia, Raziel, Barachiel, Sealtiel, and Erathaol. They live on Mount Celestia found within the plane of the House of the Triad.
The Guardinals are ruled by Talisid and his companions, currently Sathia, Manath, Vhara, Kharash, and Bharrai. They reside in the House of Nature.
Morwel is the Faerie Queen of the Eladrins. Although, she is not an actual faerie; it is more of a poetic name. Her consorts are Faerinaal and Gwynharwyf. They abide in the Court of Stars, an island in the shining sea of the Gates of the Moon, and they also spend time in Arvandor. The Eladrin Court travels back and forth between the two planes.
These are the known celestial paragons, although there may be other powers that rank at the paragon level.
I suspect certain "non-gods" may be paragons. Trishina, for example, consort of Deep Sashelas is revered as a god, but may not have divine ranks and as such might be more appropriately a celestial paragon.
Bahamut is another example. He might be a god, or he might be a paragon. I kind of think of him as a paragon, but that is a holdover from my 1e days. His status has not been addressed in 3E yet, except that he wasn't listed in Faiths & Pantheons. Which doesn't mean much since they have brought back other deities in 3E that weren't on that list.
Sardior too would make for a good paragon. Well, not a "good" paragon, but a neutral one anyway. 
Come to think of it, we don't have a special word for neutral sub-divine powers. Slaad and Rilmani are neither fiends nor celestials. We speak of Slaad Lords but those don't seem to fall into either the arch-fiend or celestial paragon camp. I guess since neutral groups are not aligned with anyone else, then they don't really need a special name to group them with entities of similar power. Still it might be nice to have a name for what they are. Neutral paragon?
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 11:50:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Come to think of it, we don't have a special word for neutral sub-divine powers. Slaad and Rilmani are neither fiends nor celestials. We speak of Slaad Lords but those don't seem to fall into either the arch-fiend or celestial paragon camp. I guess since neutral groups are not aligned with anyone else, then they don't really need a special name to group them with entities of similar power. Still it might be nice to have a name for what they are. Neutral paragon?
I`ve also thought about this.
Ps. Who are the lords of the Rilmani? And how strong are slaad lords? The strongest slaadi I know of are the death Slaad. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 25 Sep 2005 : 03:55:24
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| Khorne, the Slaad Lords pretty much end up around the same power level as Demon Lords, Arch Devils, Celestial Paragons, and the like. Bazim-Gorig the Fire Bringer has about 300 + hit points and 26 hit dice, for example, and as far as I know is the only officially 3.5 statted Slaad Lord. The Tome of Horrors d20 update to the Slaad Lords statted one with 42 hd and over 700 hp, and the other with 40 hd and over 600 hp, though they also statted some Demon Lords higher than the Book of Vile Darkness ended up statting them. That said, you get the idea . . . |
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Planar Entities and the New Cosmology
