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TheRedBard
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 02:59:09
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Greetings wise and kind sages...
Im starting a new character and this will be the first time im using the wonderful FR setting, and as the title suggests im looking to create an NE/CE bardic character. I though the evil bards of Dark Sun were interesting, but I was wondering if you could supply me with ideas or perhaps an example from a novel or such that would let me know how to really get the feel of the world.
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"You're only given a little spark of madness. And if you lose that, you're nothing!"
-Robin Williams, 1978 HBO Special |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 03:11:52
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Well, Nameless Bard from the FR that you have your avatar of is kind of chaotic neutral, though I believe he is kind of Neutral Evil in his selfishness. Also, there is also an evil harper in the second book of the Songs and Swords trilogy - Elfsong.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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TheRedBard
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 03:49:48
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| ive read that one CFB, seems like she was more of someone who felt she was wronged (unjustly) than a real evil person. |
"You're only given a little spark of madness. And if you lose that, you're nothing!"
-Robin Williams, 1978 HBO Special |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 04:40:19
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Don't forget about the "evil" composer mentioned in Richard Lee Byers contribution to the Halls of Stormweather anthology -- 'Song of Chaos'. It was his crafted music that originally led to all the reality-altering perceptions of the guests at the concert.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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El Magnifico Uno
Learned Scribe
113 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 08:06:16
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Ummm... Not to sidetrack the conversation, but what exactly would an evil bard do?... Sing mean-spirited songs? Compose naughty rhymes? Work secret messages into his tunes so that if you sing them backwards they reveal satanic messages?... I mean really, what could possibly be the motivation for somebody who spends their time singing on street corners to indulge in earth-shaking evil?... "Nobody appreciates true art, so I will destroy the world!!"... I don't know, kinda find it hard to buy that.. 'Course I also find it rather difficult to take the bard class itself seriously, so I'm probably biased..  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 09:14:44
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The musical composition of the evil composer's works in "Song of Chaos" demonstrates what perversely-inspired music can do to both people and their surroundings -- especially when the music itself is infused with magic.
Take a look for yourself... it's an exciting read!
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 22 Sep 2005 09:15:49 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 09:55:01
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quote:
Originally posted by TheRedBard
Greetings wise and kind sages...
Im starting a new character and this will be the first time im using the wonderful FR setting, and as the title suggests im looking to create an NE/CE bardic character. I though the evil bards of Dark Sun were interesting, but I was wondering if you could supply me with ideas or perhaps an example from a novel or such that would let me know how to really get the feel of the world.
There is a drow bard in the starlight and shadows trilogy. Somehow I find him to be one of the most intimidating realms villains I have ever read about. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 13:16:36
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Khorne,
I agree, that Drow Bard was truly a good character... They had a name for his profession, what was it? Been a while since I read that one... Also Halisstra Melarn from War of the Spider Queen was some sort of bard, called a Ba'queshel, or something like that... |
ShadowJack |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 14:19:05
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Khorne,
I agree, that Drow Bard was truly a good character... They had a name for his profession, what was it? Been a while since I read that one... Also Halisstra Melarn from War of the Spider Queen was some sort of bard, called a Ba'queshel, or something like that...
I concur with you two! That evil bard was really a "good bad character". 
IIRC, the name of his profession was deathsinger, or something that way...
Chosen of Moradin |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 14:39:13
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Was not Flattery, from the Wyverns's Spur some kind of evil bard? I think that it can be an useful reference to you, RedBard.
quote:
Ummm... Not to sidetrack the conversation, but what exactly would an evil bard do?... Sing mean-spirited songs? Compose naughty rhymes? Work secret messages into his tunes so that if you sing them backwards they reveal satanic messages?... I mean really, what could possibly be the motivation for somebody who spends their time singing on street corners to indulge in earth-shaking evil?... "Nobody appreciates true art, so I will destroy the world!!"... I don't know, kinda find it hard to buy that.. 'Course I also find it rather difficult to take the bard class itself seriously, so I'm probably biased..
Many of the bards of the realms use magic combined with music, Wyn form Elfsong ( as is pointed above) used an special and very powerful variety of magical elven music, so did the evil evil bard of the plot.
And you only got to read the habilities of bards to see the relation between music and magic, stunning sounds created by harps, imagine a nasty bard with such an instrument , really fun... |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 14:50:59
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Speaking of that evil Drow bard... he kind of met a kind of not-so-fitting ending... he was intimidating and then he kind of just got killed too easily. Sad, really, rather liked that chap.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 15:20:14
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| That's It!!! Deathsinger! I don't know why I couldn't remember that... Not to get too far afield from the Esteemed RedBard's question, but, do you suppose a Deathsinger and a Ba'Queshel are the same thing? Called different names by different folks or social levels? Perhadps our Learned Sages know if there has been any "Official" info on this unique PrC? |
ShadowJack |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 17:24:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Was not Flattery, from the Wyverns's Spur some kind of evil bard? I think that it can be an useful reference to you, RedBard.
I think he was more of a mage than a bard. He had singing ability, but as I recall, he swore not to use it.
Aye, he was listed as a wizard in the old lore. :) |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Kuje on 22 Sep 2005 17:30:16 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 17:34:10
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Here's a list of the bards that are evil in the old lore.
Valmiki, 1st, Female Human, NE, Lives in Daggerford. Trying to break into fame, The North: Daggerford
Myrna Cassalanter, 8th, Female Human, NE, Member of the Cassalanter family of Waterdeep, Dragon #259
Mefisto, 9th, Male Tiefling, CE, The town crier in the town of Zelatar in the Abyss, For Duty & Deity
Alamos, 12th, Female Human, NE, Playwright on Karsus's Enclave, Netheril: The Winds of Netheril
Degliangeli, 12th, Female Human, NE, Well versed in the history of Netheril. Could be found in the Library of Netheril on Karsus's Enclave, Netheril: The Winds of Netheril
Bards in 2e had different alignments and now all the bards that were lawful in 2e are pretty much screwed in 3/3.5 since bards can only be chaotic in the new rules.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 17:48:59
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| Not evil, but one example of how the published Realms differs in various ways from the 2E rules is that Realms bards can be CG as well as the part-neutral alignments. (Another is that faerie fire is evidently a common spell among priests, not just druids.) |
Edited by - Faraer on 22 Sep 2005 17:54:12 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 18:54:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Khorne,
I agree, that Drow Bard was truly a good character... They had a name for his profession, what was it? Been a while since I read that one... Also Halisstra Melarn from War of the Spider Queen was some sort of bard, called a Ba'queshel, or something like that...
I concur with you two! That evil bard was really a "good bad character".
IIRC, the name of his profession was deathsinger, or something that way...
Chosen of Moradin
Yup, that deathsinger was good. His creepiness-factor was of the charts. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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jameslt0
Seeker
USA
57 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 19:44:51
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The Bard class would be good for an assassin build. Bard Assassin's are common in Drow culture. I think that is mentioned in War of the Spider Queen. They could use the ability to preform to get close to their target. Just a thought.
James |
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 20:18:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Thelonius
Was not Flattery, from the Wyverns's Spur some kind of evil bard? I think that it can be an useful reference to you, RedBard.
I think he was more of a mage than a bard. He had singing ability, but as I recall, he swore not to use it.
Aye, he was listed as a wizard in the old lore. :)
Yup, just read about him in the villains tome, he is listed as a level 18 mage, a good observation, as always Wooly!!!!!!  |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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TheRedBard
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 21:35:59
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| Thanks for all the great ideas everyone. I like the idea of a bardic assassin, I would think he could only work in areas like drow cities or with the Zhents where such things were common. I am kicking around the idea of a NE bardic spy who works for Thay and try and infiltrate those pesky harper ranks. |
"You're only given a little spark of madness. And if you lose that, you're nothing!"
-Robin Williams, 1978 HBO Special |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 23:04:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Bards in 2e had different alignments and now all the bards that were lawful in 2e are pretty much screwed in 3/3.5 since bards can only be chaotic in the new rules.
Well, they can be neutral too, right. It's not so impossible a situation. If I recall correctly, they had to be partly neutral in 2e, which meant Lawful bards could only be LN, which could become N with enough tweaking.
I thought Lawful was kind of an odd choice for a bard, but I suppose those who rigorously study the structure and perfect form of music. . . Hmm.
And for evil bards, I suppose they would be either deathsingers, the drow equivalent baq. . . (can't spell that), or just really ruthless and selfish -- maybe people who believe in the perfection of music (their music) over the wellbeing of people (OTHER people). Or they just use music magic to evil ends.
[Ho hum, preparing the protection spells. . .]
Examples: well, there's always Harkon Lukas. . . who USED TO BE a Realms character, and is only a Ravenloft character now -- so no need to get the staff, Big Al. 
No need, that is, until I point out the evil bard in the second half of RAS's DemonWars. . . 
RUN!!! 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
Edited by - Erik Scott de Bie on 22 Sep 2005 23:06:11 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 23:16:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Well, they can be neutral too, right. It's not so impossible a situation. If I recall correctly, they had to be partly neutral in 2e, which meant Lawful bards could only be LN, which could become N with enough tweaking.
I thought Lawful was kind of an odd choice for a bard, but I suppose those who rigorously study the structure and perfect form of music. . . Hmm.
Cheers
They didn't have to be all neutral or neutral something in 2e because there are CG and LG bards in 2e. But my point is, all the lawful something or neutral something bards in the old lore can't exist because all bards now have to be chaotic something or TN. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 22 Sep 2005 23:29:34 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 00:14:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
They didn't have to be all neutral or neutral something in 2e because there are CG and LG bards in 2e. But my point is, all the lawful something or neutral something bards in the old lore can't exist because all bards now have to be chaotic something or TN.
Oh I see your point (and raise you another. . . ahem). It's a good point of yours: a rocky bit of transition. I sympathize.
Like how assassins have to be EVIL now. Sigh.
Excuse me. Back to fleeing.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 01:34:15
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I created a prestige class called a Dirge (non good) which kind of embodies the evil bard idea.
Rather than using his outgoing nature to perform and bolster his allies and raise their spirits, he turns his attention to his enemies. Casting spells and performing songs that sap their morale and hinder them.
I find it hard to think of characters being evil for the sake of being evil (without thinking of them either being petty and cruel, or just slaughterers, neither of which fit a bard), however working for an evil organisation I think gives the character more depth. He could be working as a prpaganda minister, or working covertly to alter histories and records etc, or simply to create songs and stories that put other people and organisations in a bad light (see the virtuoso in song and silence, has an ability which does this) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 01:38:24
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| Just to point out . . . its not that they cannot be lawful, nor that they lose their abilities. They just can't gain any more bard levels while they are lawful. Not a perfect solution, but it doesn't invalidate any stated bard at any given level, it just means that they either will gain other class levels, or they will have to change alignments before they gain levels. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 01:57:11
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Just to point out . . . its not that they cannot be lawful, nor that they lose their abilities. They just can't gain any more bard levels while they are lawful. Not a perfect solution, but it doesn't invalidate any stated bard at any given level, it just means that they either will gain other class levels, or they will have to change alignments before they gain levels.
Then how did the ruler of one part of the Harpers get to be a 26th level bard when she's lawful neutral. :) It's dumb that lawful bards can't gain levels if they go lawful. That's still my point.
And the 3.5 PHB says bards are incompatible to lawful alignments. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 18:58:42
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I think the The Book of Vile Darkness adds a new level of depth to evil bards (so many vile and nasty spells, for example )
I have also always thought that the concept of am evil bard/assassin would be intriguing to play
Actually, there is one in my gaming group right now. He poses as a merchant (and sometimes as a sage, with lots of skill points in disguise and all the knowledge skills ;). His true craft is slave trade, however, and he also seems to be a member of every evil organisation (Shadow thieves, Knights of the Shield, Zhentarim, etc...) |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Andyr
Acolyte
27 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 22:55:02
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quote:
I created a prestige class called a Dirge (non good) which kind of embodies the evil bard idea.
Rather than using his outgoing nature to perform and bolster his allies and raise their spirits, he turns his attention to his enemies. Casting spells and performing songs that sap their morale and hinder them.
There is a PrC in Libris Mortis called the Dirgesinger, which sounds vaguely similar to this (though it is themed towards undead). |
Infinity Engine (Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale/Planescape: Torment series) modder:
http://www.gibberlings3.net
http://www.pocketplane.net |
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ShadowJack
Senior Scribe
USA
350 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2005 : 00:17:23
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Andyr,
That sounds like a very good take on the bard class. I think that would make an interesting low-level NPC villian (recurring) for the PC's to keep running across... |
ShadowJack |
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Vendrin
Acolyte
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2005 : 10:33:26
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Well I've never played an evil bard character but I have been thinking of starting one as a NE follower of Garguath and have him play the Archtype betrayer.
His music and fast talking are just skills he uses to his own end, to gain the trust of a person and then blackmailing them into doing what he wants or getting paid off. Eventually if he reaches a high level he will just start dominating people he can with spells to get what he wants and maybe form his own thieves guild or put himself into a place of power from controlling a bunch of people through magic and blackmail. |
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Charon
Acolyte
Australia
16 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2005 : 10:59:06
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hey vendrin how are you?
i never played an evil bard before either, only a good, flash a million gold smile type...he had a 'strut' abiltiy...
neway i think it would be interesting...an antiheor of the best-or worst type |
we...are...legion |
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Evil Bards of the Realms?
