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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Jul 2005 : 16:18:49
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First, I would like everyone to consider one quote from the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting.
"after this creation came a period of timeless nothingness, a misty realms of shadows that existed before light and darkness were separate things."
I, Sir Luther Cromwell, have also some experience is the nightmare realm "Ravenloft", or the land of the mists. One might say that that the land of the mists shows many similarities to europe (sort of like faerun). Raveloft was a world of great mists that worked independly of time, of eternal shadows that never ended, and where even the most noble and wiset paladins and good aligned clerics could never tell fully what was good or evil.
My hypothesis to you, fellow sages, is that Ravenloft may have some ancestoral relationship with the realms. Already in the realms are there many a character take from our beloved toril into that horrible land. Of the ones I know:
Jander Sunstar-Waterdeep
Harkan Lucas-Cormyr
Hasslik-Thay
And many others. Is there a possibilty that Ravenloft may have been our world before Selune and Shar were created? Or maybe an alternate universe where shar over powered selune, distorting the world to her whims?
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jul 2005 : 17:17:15
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| No. If we count the 2nd edition (AD&D) stuff, Ravenloft is a demiplane in the Ethereal Plane, and exist there, isolated of the other prime-planes (Krynn, Athas, Cerillia, Toril, Oerth, ...). In the adventure module Castle Spulzeer, the heroes can go (and, with luck), return for Toril. This means that Ravenloft still exists, as an alternate demi-plane, separated from the world of Toril. I don´t believe in the theory of Ravenloft being the pre-pre-historical Toril, because the setting was created to reach all the other prime planes, not only Faerun. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 02:03:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
First, I would like everyone to consider one quote from the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting.
"after this creation came a period of timeless nothingness, a misty realms of shadows that existed before light and darkness were separate things."
Don't confuse the Necropolis creation myth and the realm it describes with that descriptive passage from the 3e FRCS. Many FR and RL fans have tried to find a measure of commonality between the two references -- however RL designers have side explicitly... there is none! 
quote:
My hypothesis to you, fellow sages, is that Ravenloft may have some ancestoral relationship with the realms. Already in the realms are there many a character take from our beloved toril into that horrible land. Of the ones I know:
Jander Sunstar-Waterdeep
Harkan Lucas-Cormyr
Hasslik-Thay
And many others. Is there a possibilty that Ravenloft may have been our world before Selune and Shar were created? Or maybe an alternate universe where shar over powered selune, distorting the world to her whims?
There are many people from the Realms now in RL. Here's a more complete listing of people and places from the Realms who are now in the Dread Realms:-
Draga Saltbitter – was a pirate in the Sword Coast
Chardath Spulzeeer – from area south of Waterdeep (see: Castle Spulzeeer)
Gondegal – conqueror of Arabel and Knight of the Shadows
Harkon Lukas – grew up in Cormyr, now in Kartakass
Hazlik – Red Wizard from Thay
Jander Sunstar
Salizarr the Meazel – lived under Cormyr’s catacombs now in Necropolis
Nova Vassa – from Vaasa and Hordelands
Von Kharkov – Lord of Valachan
Domain of I'Cath - originally from Kara-Tur
Jahed of the Stalkers (see: MCII)
Mayonaka (see: MCII)
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 02:05:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ravenloft hasn't been around nearly as long as the Realms.
Going by the wonderful, multi-setting timeline A Temporal Chronology of the Primes (done by the same guy that brought us A Grand History of the Realms), we see that the Demiplane of Dread was formed in 997 DR, the Year of the Fearful Harper.
That is of course, the 2e interpretation.
However if we believe the 3e rendition, then the Dark Powers and their domain of Ravenloft have existed in some way, shape, or form since the rising of the first sentient creatures.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 02:55:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ravenloft hasn't been around nearly as long as the Realms.
Going by the wonderful, multi-setting timeline A Temporal Chronology of the Primes (done by the same guy that brought us A Grand History of the Realms), we see that the Demiplane of Dread was formed in 997 DR, the Year of the Fearful Harper.
That is of course, the 2e interpretation.
However if we believe the 3e rendition, then the Dark Powers and their domain of Ravenloft have existed in some way, shape, or form since the rising of the first sentient creatures.
I think you could reconcile both... The Dark Powers have existed as long as there has been evil in the hearts of men... But until 997 DR, they lacked the power to grab domains.
Or, there was an earlier version of the Demiplane of Dread, and something happened to all the lands there. In 997, the Dark Powers (perhaps former Lords of the previous version?) grabbed Barovia so they could start over...
Speaking of the vampire from the Realms, Jander Sunstar, do we know what happened to him after he greeted the dawn again? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 02:57:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Speaking of the vampire from the Realms, Jander Sunstar, do we know what happened to him after he greeted the dawn again?
Yes one of the 3/3.5e Ravenloft material has him back "alive." I could look it up but I'm still being lazy. :) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 03:02:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think you could reconcile both... The Dark Powers have existed as long as there has been evil in the hearts of men... But until 997 DR, they lacked the power to grab domains.
Or, there was an earlier version of the Demiplane of Dread, and something happened to all the lands there. In 997, the Dark Powers (perhaps former Lords of the previous version?) grabbed Barovia so they could start over...
A good theory, especially with the fact that you've connected the Dark Powers with the "supposed" rumor that they were less powerful during the Demiplane's formation.
However, the 3e interpretation also suggests that Ravenloft may have existed before the creation of what we now all know as the Ethereal Plane.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 03:03:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Speaking of the vampire from the Realms, Jander Sunstar, do we know what happened to him after he greeted the dawn again?
Yes one of the 3/3.5e Ravenloft material has him back "alive." I could look it up but I'm still being lazy. :)
Children of the Night: Vampires
When the dark powers find a toy that they like, they do not let go of it that easily! Although Jander wanted to die in rays of the sun, the Mists of Ravenloft snatched him away before he could be burned, determined to keep him alive in his tortured existence.
Jander is also updated to 3e in Champions of Darkness.
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 20:16:52
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Ah, a good point about the timeline. But mind you, said timeline was made in one assumption:
that a year in Ravenloft is identical to a year in forgotten realms.
Ravenloft is measured by the Barovian Calendar. Now Barovia, by nature, already has an uncanny inconsistancy of times of day (if strahd, the local darklord, should wish night may total to 24 hours a day). There's no reason to say that one day in ravenloft is a year by dale reckoning. This concept isn't unheard of, consider the plane of Hades!
Also, one must consider that the mists of ravenloft work quite independently of time and location. There is always the possibility that ravenloft 'appeared' in a certain time and place because the mists decided to move it. |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Setepsutekh
Acolyte
United Kingdom
12 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 21:46:13
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Greetings scribes,
I've gotten to quite like Ravenloft and consider it one of the more interesting settings just down to it's atmosphere alone. Sir Luther has raised a good point though about time, the Dread Realms interpretation of it may be completely out of sync with the rest of the Prime and Inner/Outer planes due to it's demiplane nature and that of it's mysterious masters.
However do you believe Ravenloft can still affect Abeir-Toril in general or is it (as is more likely) now completely shut off due to the stupid closed cosmology, no guesses needed as to which camp I'm a member of on that issue  . |
"And so the creature was imprisoned and his tomb cast out into the desert, never would the Scourge of the Sands threaten the lands of Mulhorand...(the rest is worn away)
- Ancient hieroglyphics found amid the ruins of the Raurin Desert
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 22:13:44
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| I think that the Ravenloft/Toril theorie still lacks more solid base. If Ravenloft was the mythic Faerun of the begining of the times, how it was separated from what Faerun is now? Why Chauntea (the enbodiment of Toril) permit that part of his being was isolated in the ethereal plane? Why Selune, Mystra, and the good gods permit this to happen? Whay a Greyhawk god (Vecna) stay there as an lord? Not to mention Kaz, and Lord Soth? Yes, the mists have a good foothold in Toril, but it have, anyway, in the other worlds, too. I prefer to view Ravenloft as an Demiplane of the Ethereal Plane, having nothing to do with the prime material planes, but having pockets of that same prime material planes enclosed in it (Nova Vaasa being an example). Who create it, and who control the mists? I don´t know. Maybe the overgods (Ao, Chaos, and some others that I really don´t know); maybe the Lady of Pain... Maybe no one?!? |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jul 2005 : 22:30:39
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quote:
However do you believe Ravenloft can still affect Abeir-Toril in general or is it (as is more likely) now completely shut off due to the stupid closed cosmology, no guesses needed as to which camp I'm a member of on that issue .
Not so much closed off as uninterested. Ravenloft is not totally incapable of invading other worlds. For instance, in the campaign setting 'The Mask of The Red Death', Ravenloft is (sort of) slowly invading late 1800's earth. Mind you, the red death is a rogue dark power with his own agenda. The more organized and accepted dark powers of ravenloft would probably show no interest in Faerun (however some of the darklords might).
quote:
Why Chauntea (the enbodiment of Toril) permit that part of his being was isolated in the ethereal plane? Why Selune, Mystra, and the good gods permit this to happen? Whay a Greyhawk god (Vecna) stay there as an lord? Not to mention Kaz, and Lord Soth?
Ah, but you see, the quote in question that refers to a misty, shadow realm refers to a realm before Selune, Shar, or any of the FR gods were created. Only Lord Ao was present. I have also been told that not all dark powers are necessarily evil (hence why some celestials are allowing into RL). Might there be some possibility that Lord Ao himself was a Dark Lord who changes RL itself into FR?
And remember, the fact that RL exists now would still make sense with this theory, because one must remember that the mists work independently of time and location. |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 02:12:50
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| I don't know... I don't see why we can assume that mists and the Mists are one in the same. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 02:15:32
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::waiting on Wooly to make an Occam's Razor comment::
::Checks his fine Lantanese wristwatch:: |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 03:23:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Who create it, and who control the mists? I don´t know. Maybe the overgods (Ao, Chaos, and some others that I really don´t know); maybe the Lady of Pain... Maybe no one?!?
The baernaloths.
In their ultimate pursuit to find the truth of real "evil", they constructed a demiplane where they could push mortals to the depths of depravity -- all in the hope of fashioning a new and better type of yugoloth.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 03:57:24
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
::waiting on Wooly to make an Occam's Razor comment::
::Checks his fine Lantanese wristwatch::
Well, it does apply here.
Just because I see fog doesn't mean I need to start looking out for Strahd.  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 04:01:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Who create it, and who control the mists? I don´t know. Maybe the overgods (Ao, Chaos, and some others that I really don´t know); maybe the Lady of Pain... Maybe no one?!?
The baernaloths.
In their ultimate pursuit to find the truth of real "evil", they constructed a demiplane where they could push mortals to the depths of depravity -- all in the hope of fashioning a new and better type of yugoloth.
Is this canon? I've never heard it before. In fact, I just this day saw the term "baernaloth" for the first time. |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 04:59:36
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quote:
I've never heard it before. In fact, I just this day saw the term "baernaloth" for the first time.
I believe that Sage was refering to a type of demon found in the 2e Monster Manual. Definately, the very nature of RL doesn't seem to have remained constant between 3rd and 2nd edition. Personally, I perfer the 3rd edition setting. Ravenloft is better off much more complicated and introcate than a bunch of demons trying to create bigger demons through torture of mortal lives.
quote:
I don't know... I don't see why we can assume that mists and the Mists are one in the same.
Not an assumption, a theory. In the end I guess it's the interpretation of the GM. And it is true, mist doesn't always mean Strahd. There's Asselin, and Gwydian (sp), and Dominique, and Adam, and Hasslik, and Harkan Lucas, and 'Death'.
If you ask me, applying this theory to a game in FR, should the GM wish to do so, wouldn't seem that much of a stretch. It's not necessarily absolutely true, but if you ask me possible. |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 06:03:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Who create it, and who control the mists? I don´t know. Maybe the overgods (Ao, Chaos, and some others that I really don´t know); maybe the Lady of Pain... Maybe no one?!?
The baernaloths.
In their ultimate pursuit to find the truth of real "evil", they constructed a demiplane where they could push mortals to the depths of depravity -- all in the hope of fashioning a new and better type of yugoloth.
Is this canon? I've never heard it before. In fact, I just this day saw the term "baernaloth" for the first time.
No, just a theory.
The baernaloths are the supposed "creators" of the yugoloth race. I say supposed because it is usually said that after they created the 'loths... the baern disappeared making it a diffcult task for sages and scholars to accurately confirm these rumors. The few times travellers have encountered what they believe to be a baernaloth... the baernaloths themselves deny that they are responsible for such an act.
However, there's an alternate belief that the "nature" of the baernaloths is really something the ultraloths cooked up in order to justify their overall rulership of the yugoloths -- they claim that the baern left them "in charge" before they disappeared.
It's my theory that the missing baernaloths may in fact be tied to the Dark Powers of Ravenloft. They are using the demiplane in order to fashion the greatest of all evils. This great evil, when it is found, will be used to breed an entirely new type of yugoloth -- a fiendish form whose penchant for malicious and hatred know no bounds anywhere in the multiverse.
Of course, that's just ONE theory. I have others... but this is hardly the place for them .
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 06:06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
I believe that Sage was refering to a type of demon found in the 2e Monster Manual.
The baern were also given further treatment in the 2e PS tome... Faces of Evil: The Fiends.
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 12:42:51
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quote:
Not an assumption, a theory. In the end I guess it's the interpretation of the GM. And it is true, mist doesn't always mean Strahd. There's Asselin, and Gwydian (sp), and Dominique, and Adam, and Hasslik, and Harkan Lucas, and 'Death'.
If you ask me, applying this theory to a game in FR, should the GM wish to do so, wouldn't seem that much of a stretch. It's not necessarily absolutely true, but if you ask me possible.
Hey, Sir Luther!
I want to say that I, too, find dificult to believe that the mists of the creation of Toril are the same Mists of Ravenloft. In the sequence of that same text of the FRCS that you have quoted, is said that
"this shadowy essence coalesced to form beautifull twin goddesses..."
and, with this, became Shar and Selune. So, the only way to believe that those mists are The Mists, is to believe that it was formed by the mist part that became Shar, and she (as the goddes of secrets), well, mantain it in secret 
This really can work, but we have more hard work to do. If the Mists of Ravenloft are part of the Shar essence (the Faerunian goddess of secrets), it´s very hard to believe that Vecna (the god of secrets of Greyhawk) stay locked in Ravenloft all that time.
All of this, I´m suposing, thinking that you are desiring to DM one campaign in Ravenloft/Forgotten Realms. And I think that is a good idea.
Ok, what I (and the other scribes here) are doing, is to show all the gaps that will need to be reshaped/filled/relocated by you, to put the idea in a good pace. |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 14:42:33
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quote:
Ok, what I (and the other scribes here) are doing, is to show all the gaps that will need to be reshaped/filled/relocated by you, to put the idea in a good pace.
And let me just say, I appreciate this, thoroughly, from everyone.
One other thing that may be cool is if Ravenloft itself somehow came into contact with FR. I don't see how, other than if the dark powers all of a suddenly decided that invading FR might be fun. But there could be some interesting possibilities, if sick and twisted. Imagine if the Underdark were consumed by the evil in ravenloft . |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 17:09:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
Imagine if the Underdark were consumed by the evil in ravenloft .
Would anyone notice? |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 18:29:20
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The svirfneblin!!!
And Halaster will have a cronical burst of laugh that will last one entire day!  |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 19:16:15
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Oh common, you can't tell me Evil svirfneblin doesn't sound so awesome. MALICIOUS GNOMES WITH PERNEMENT NON-DETECTION!
I somehow picture a short, asian Gnome on a throne singing 'I'm so ronery" |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 21:46:14
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quote:
Oh common, you can't tell me Evil svirfneblin doesn't sound so awesome. MALICIOUS GNOMES WITH PERNEMENT NON-DETECTION!
Hehehe. That malicious little ones will give too much trouble to everyone, really...
And I don´t have stoped to visualize Halaster, the conoisseur of exotic monsters, running in the halls of Undermountain, throwing crops/meat/whatever and saying: " Heeeeeeeeeere, kitty, kitty kitty..." |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 22:40:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
Oh common, you can't tell me Evil svirfneblin doesn't sound so awesome. MALICIOUS GNOMES WITH PERNEMENT NON-DETECTION!
I somehow picture a short, asian Gnome on a throne singing 'I'm so ronery"
Nice way to sneak in a non-Realms reference!  |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jul 2005 : 23:52:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
Oh common, you can't tell me Evil svirfneblin doesn't sound so awesome. MALICIOUS GNOMES WITH PERNEMENT NON-DETECTION!
I somehow picture a short, asian Gnome on a throne singing 'I'm so ronery"
Nice way to sneak in a non-Realms reference!
Hehehe. I´m echoing this.
But, going back to the topic, Sir Luther, how is the better way you think to work that Ravenloft/FR interaction? I think that the idea about Shar is the better one. Even considering Vecna, IIRC, he is, yes, the god of secrets. But he is a minor god, I´m right? I think that, if we go to use the Ravenloft/FR theorie, I think that Shar have the power to mantain Vecna locked in the Realms of Dread (until the moment that he discovers what´s happening, and go back to Greyhawk, and start to made Shar´s live a real hell!!!
Imagine a god of secrets manipulating the secrets of another god of secrets??? This is devious! |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2005 : 02:40:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Sir Luther Cromwell
Imagine if the Underdark were consumed by the evil in ravenloft .
Would anyone notice?
There's already an Underdark-styled region in Ravenloft. It just does not grant access to most other domains.
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jul 2005 : 02:47:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
Hehehe. I´m echoing this.
But, going back to the topic, Sir Luther, how is the better way you think to work that Ravenloft/FR interaction? I think that the idea about Shar is the better one. Even considering Vecna, IIRC, he is, yes, the god of secrets. But he is a minor god, I´m right? I think that, if we go to use the Ravenloft/FR theorie, I think that Shar have the power to mantain Vecna locked in the Realms of Dread (until the moment that he discovers what´s happening, and go back to Greyhawk, and start to made Shar´s live a real hell!!!
Imagine a god of secrets manipulating the secrets of another god of secrets??? This is devious!
You also have to remember the Dark Powers element.
When Vecna was brought into RL, (in his domain of Cavitius which was part of the Burning Peaks cluster along with Kas's domain Tovag) he was severly 'de-powered'. The Dark Powers sought to constrain much of his great power, trapping him in only one physical form. They also prevented him from becoming incorporeal and completely severed his ties to his collected avatar forms...
I imagine much the same would happen with Shar also.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Forgotten Realms and Ravenloft.
