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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 12:37:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
Unfortunately, he screwed up the book's ending, and thus the series' ending, and this has caused me to view the whole series in an increasingly bitter and negative light. (The same thing happened with Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time.) Pity, too. Things looked so bright with the first three WotSQ books...
Sorry to hear that the last two books caused such a reaction from you. I was disappointed with them as well and just chalked it up as a live and learn prospect for future purchases. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 12:38:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And heck, while I'm talking about artwork, I'd love to see them get Larry Elmore back! 
If they are pinching pennies, as the title of this thread suggests, can they afford him? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 14:56:48
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And heck, while I'm talking about artwork, I'd love to see them get Larry Elmore back!
If they are pinching pennies, as the title of this thread suggests, can they afford him?
I don't know about WotC, but according to a SP news release a few years back, Elmore actually agreed to take a "pay cut" just so he could have the opportunity to work on the Sovereign Stone setting.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 15:01:16
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I don't know about WotC, but according to a SP news release a few years back, Elmore actually agreed to take a "pay cut" just so he could have the opportunity to work on the Sovereign Stone setting.
I wonder if his feelings would be similar to working with WOTC? I've no idea on the status of his relationship with the company. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 15:13:46
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
I don't know about WotC, but according to a SP news release a few years back, Elmore actually agreed to take a "pay cut" just so he could have the opportunity to work on the Sovereign Stone setting.
I wonder if his feelings would be similar to working with WOTC? I've no idea on the status of his relationship with the company.
Elmore's close relationship with SP is the result of the part he played in the creation of the Sovereign Stone setting along with Tracy Hickman. There was likely an already pre-existing agreement between the company and Elmore.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 19 Jun 2005 15:15:12 |
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Ty
Learned Scribe
USA
168 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 19:06:20
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Penny-pinching doesn't seem to be anything particularly new at WotC since they were bought out by Hasbro. As far as I can recall, I haven't seen one map published by WotC that is similar to the old formats used by TSR in the various boxed sets that were produced. As for bindings breaking, pages smudging and other assorted technical difficulties, I also don't find this a significant change from the old TSR products in all honesty.
I recall back in the late 80's/early 90's, that when the 2nd Edition Players Handbook was released, none of the seven copies that floated throughout our group of players didn't suffer from broken and split bindings. In short, the binding process was very poor. I found a similar problem with the Magic of Faerun. In short, I don't think the quality has gone done over time, but rather, some products just don't measure up to the standards imposed on others. The lack of maps is disconcerting at times, but in all honesty, not too surprising. I haven't changed my expectations in over 15 years. The more things change, the more they stay the same.  |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 19:44:51
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| Am I the only person who's never had a problem with the binding? Every single one of my D&D books -- from 1st Edition TSR stuff to the newest 3E product -- has an intact binding. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 19:59:21
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The only TSR/WotC book that's shed pages for me is the original Unearthed Arcana, which is known for that. But I'm instinctively careful with handling books.
I look at the current art and I just don't see the Realms. I see a pretty D&D illustration that's nominally linked to the Realms, at least when I read what it's supposed to be, but doesn't exist there. How much this is a process of the way the company uses and deals with artists, and how much it's my own closed-minded fault, I don't know. |
Edited by - Faraer on 19 Jun 2005 20:05:10 |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 20:32:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Am I the only person who's never had a problem with the binding? Every single one of my D&D books -- from 1st Edition TSR stuff to the newest 3E product -- has an intact binding.
Nope. My 3e DMG and 2e PH are my only books that have fallen apart om me. My worries about the future wotc FR products are based on the moaning on the enworld boards.
So... how is the Waterdeep binding anyway? Sturdy? Glossy cover? "Shaded" cover (the correct english term escapes me)? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 20:56:58
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To be completely honest, I think WOTC is taking a few hits here that are bordering on "bandwagoning." While I think they have done some cost cutting moves that I have not agreed with (and I strongly suspect has more to do with Hasbro than WOTC), for the most part I am pretty happy with their products.
One of the guys in my gaming group buys EVERYTHING so I get to see a lot of things that I wouldn't normally buy myself. The original splatbooks didn't do anything for me, but I would put the new Complete books into the "I would buy once I have all the FR stuff I want" category. Planar Handbook didn't do much for me, and I liked Frostburn more than I liked Sandstorm, the last two I would buy, again, if I have all the Realms stuff that I want.
The Races books seemed kinda useless to me, since their content really seemed not only to not be compatable with the Realms, but also started to contradict the Core (Greyhawk) D&D lore for the races as well (i.e. the new Dwarven Pantheon . . . huh?). Draconomicon was awesome, I liked Libris Mortis, and I could take or leave Lords of Madness. I haven't seen much on the horizon of the Core line that really gets my attention.
As far as the Realms go, the only thing I thing I felt that was really a cheap, forced on us thing was PGTF, which didn't really do a whole lot except try to clean up the mess the resulted from the Core line assimilating a lot of Realms specific info. Dispite this, I still bought it becuase I did want to know the "official" state of several prestige classes, spells, etc.
After PGTF I think the only other book that was even close to disappointing me was Champions of Ruin, and I still liked the book, I just wish it had a bit more lore and "forward" moving campaign information in it. I still loved the info on Malkzid, Dendar, Kezef, and all that good stuff, I just wanted MORE.
I write all of this in response to the time honored captalistic means of speaking to a company. In regards to this, I am show WOTC what I don't like by not buying what I consider the superfluous Core products, but I haven't seen a lot of Realms items that just scream "you're being taken."
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 21:06:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Am I the only person who's never had a problem with the binding? Every single one of my D&D books -- from 1st Edition TSR stuff to the newest 3E product -- has an intact binding.
None of my D&D books, from 1st Ed to now, have fallen apart or anything of that nature if that is what you mean.
On the other hand my GURPs books.....  |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 00:54:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Am I the only person who's never had a problem with the binding? Every single one of my D&D books -- from 1st Edition TSR stuff to the newest 3E product -- has an intact binding.
My copy of Silver Marches has started to come away from the binding between certain pages and my copy of CoR had to be forced to open the 5-6 times I read it (The cover didnt want to be open more than about 45 degrees, Ive not had this problem with any of the earlier FR Hard Covers) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 01:17:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Am I the only person who's never had a problem with the binding? Every single one of my D&D books -- from 1st Edition TSR stuff to the newest 3E product -- has an intact binding.
My copy of Silver Marches has started to come away from the binding between certain pages and my copy of CoR had to be forced to open the 5-6 times I read it (The cover didnt want to be open more than about 45 degrees, Ive not had this problem with any of the earlier FR Hard Covers)
That does remind of some WotC books that I did avoid. Did get them, just from a different location.
Where the tops of the pages, apparently didn't get hit by the paper cutter, so huge sections were still connected at the top and bottom. Or the bindings weren't set correctly.
I think of it as more poor quality control, than cheap materials/binding in alot of them though. |
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Ty
Learned Scribe
USA
168 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 02:15:36
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Don't get me wrong here either folks. I have my original copy of the 1st edition Players Handbook and the darn thing is still almost in mint condition after almost what, 20 years now? My original FRCS book is still fully intact with absolutely no issues, as are most of my original core books. The notable exception I found were the core books for 2nd Edition DM's Guide, PH, and the dreaded Monster Manual inserts (blech, horrible idea!  ). Other than some editing errors in Complete Divine, I've never had any problems with the quality of WotC books.  |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 02:56:08
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I myself have not seen such problems with the sourcebooks as you guys have described. While I do not actually own too many, there's this one store I know in downtown Vancouver that sells tons of sourcebooks and I head over every once in awhile to look through them. Those ones, like Races of Faerun, FRCS, LoD, etc have no binding problems.
I would also like to bring up a point some other members made about the artwork being less important than the Realmslore. At first, I disagreed with this view but today I got myself a copy of Code of the Harpers and I realize how true you guys were. That sourcebook barely has any art, but I loved how there was so much Realmslore, like the history of the Harpstar Wars. I really wish that WotC would go back to the good ol' days like that. The only recent sourcebook I've seen that come close to that would be LEoF. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2005 : 03:20:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Am I the only person who's never had a problem with the binding? Every single one of my D&D books -- from 1st Edition TSR stuff to the newest 3E product -- has an intact binding.
You're not the only one.
All of my products are still in [comicbook guy voice]"near-mint condition"[/comicbook guy voice]. In fact, one of my players remarked the other day that my FRCS still looks like it was purchased just yesterday .
I've even got a third-hand copy of the original UA that was slightly damaged, which through careful attention, I've managed to keep from deteriorating any further.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2005 : 11:31:05
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Interesting enough, here's an excerpt from an RPGNet review of Champions of Ruin:
quote:
I really wanted to give this book a perfect score. It is such a great resource, whether you are a fan of the Forgotten Realms or not. You can create memorable villains and evil PCs, set your heroes against ancient evils or have your villainous characters follow those evils. But at only 157 pages with a thirty dollar price tag, I have to wonder where the rest of my book went. Another 50 or so pages would have made this one of the best D&D supplements I have ever read.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2005 : 17:16:00
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Interesting enough, here's an excerpt from an RPGNet review of Champions of Ruin:
quote:
I really wanted to give this book a perfect score. It is such a great resource, whether you are a fan of the Forgotten Realms or not. You can create memorable villains and evil PCs, set your heroes against ancient evils or have your villainous characters follow those evils. But at only 157 pages with a thirty dollar price tag, I have to wonder where the rest of my book went. Another 50 or so pages would have made this one of the best D&D supplements I have ever read.
I have to agree. More pages would have been great. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 01:52:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Interesting enough, here's an excerpt from an RPGNet review of Champions of Ruin:
quote:
I really wanted to give this book a perfect score. It is such a great resource, whether you are a fan of the Forgotten Realms or not. You can create memorable villains and evil PCs, set your heroes against ancient evils or have your villainous characters follow those evils. But at only 157 pages with a thirty dollar price tag, I have to wonder where the rest of my book went. Another 50 or so pages would have made this one of the best D&D supplements I have ever read.
I have to agree. More pages would have been great.
Yeah, I think everyone would be in agreement on that. |
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Setepsutekh
Acolyte
United Kingdom
12 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 02:20:47
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We want more bang for our buck  , good realmslore, decent binding and paper quality, and beautiful artwork gracing the cover and contents. I don't know about the rest of you but I think Peter Adkinson shouldn't have sold WotC to Hasbro (although I know none of the specifics of the matter), now things will definately be more about money. |
"And so the creature was imprisoned and his tomb cast out into the desert, never would the Scourge of the Sands threaten the lands of Mulhorand...(the rest is worn away)
- Ancient hieroglyphics found amid the ruins of the Raurin Desert
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Edited by - Setepsutekh on 22 Jun 2005 20:20:30 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 02:29:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Setepsutekh
I don't know about the rest of you but I think Peter Adkinson should be dumped in the Abyss for selling WotC to Hasbro, now things will definately be more about money.
I'll not consign anyone to the Abyss until I know their offenses. Except for slow drivers -- driving under the speed limit in the left lane is offense enough to land someone in one of the less-pleasant places in the Lower Planes.  |
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Setepsutekh
Acolyte
United Kingdom
12 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 17:44:55
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| , I make my judgement on what I know of that event. WotC in imo would be better off without Hasbro leaning over it's shoulder whenever it does something. |
"And so the creature was imprisoned and his tomb cast out into the desert, never would the Scourge of the Sands threaten the lands of Mulhorand...(the rest is worn away)
- Ancient hieroglyphics found amid the ruins of the Raurin Desert
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seankreynolds
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
91 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 18:07:13
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{I don't know about the rest of you but I think Peter Adkinson should be dumped in the Abyss for selling WotC to Hasbro, now things will definately be more about money.}
You don't know what you're talking about.
WotC, like any business, is always about making money.
Peter is just one of several people whose shares in the company totally the necessary 51% to make the decision to sell. He wanted what was best for the shareholders, but at the same time he loves games.
After the sale, Peter was made a regional director for Hasbro. Later, Hasbro decided to sell all D&D software rights to Infogrames/Atari for an incredibly cheap sum. Peter objected, as he know those licenses were far more valuable than what the Hasbro board was selling them for. He was outvoted. Peter realized he no longer could control and protect the game he loved. He resigned. He still wanted to be involved in the game industry, so he bought Gen Con.
Peter doesn't deserve to burn in the Abyss. (And who the hell are you to consign him to such a thing? What have you done to save D&D?)
Peter saved TSR, and in doing so saved D&D. He gave a lot of people a good job and made them (including me, and many of the people whose work on FR you respect, including Steven Schend and Ed Greenwood) a good amount of money. He thought selling to Hasbro was a good idea, and it turns out it wasn't, and hindsight is 20/20, but you can't punish him for something he didn't know at the time.
If it wasn't for Peter, TSR would have gone out of business and Hasbro would have bought the scraps. There wouldn't really be D&D any more because it would just be mass-produced crap annual products like Monopoly. No creativity, no involvement from Ed or Steven or Salvatore or anyone. Peter buying TSR gave TSR/D&D time to prove itself a valuable asset to the company rather than something you squeeze for money and dump when it's dry (which Hasbro has done many times with other companies).
So watch your mouth when you don't know what you're talking about. |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 18:48:25
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quote:
Originally posted by seankreynolds
{I don't know about the rest of you but I think Peter Adkinson should be dumped in the Abyss for selling WotC to Hasbro, now things will definately be more about money.}
You don't know what you're talking about.
WotC, like any business, is always about making money.
Peter is just one of several people whose shares in the company totally the necessary 51% to make the decision to sell. He wanted what was best for the shareholders, but at the same time he loves games.
After the sale, Peter was made a regional director for Hasbro. Later, Hasbro decided to sell all D&D software rights to Infogrames/Atari for an incredibly cheap sum. Peter objected, as he know those licenses were far more valuable than what the Hasbro board was selling them for. He was outvoted. Peter realized he no longer could control and protect the game he loved. He resigned. He still wanted to be involved in the game industry, so he bought Gen Con.
Peter doesn't deserve to burn in the Abyss. (And who the hell are you to consign him to such a thing? What have you done to save D&D?)
Peter saved TSR, and in doing so saved D&D. He gave a lot of people a good job and made them (including me, and many of the people whose work on FR you respect, including Steven Schend and Ed Greenwood) a good amount of money. He thought selling to Hasbro was a good idea, and it turns out it wasn't, and hindsight is 20/20, but you can't punish him for something he didn't know at the time.
If it wasn't for Peter, TSR would have gone out of business and Hasbro would have bought the scraps. There wouldn't really be D&D any more because it would just be mass-produced crap annual products like Monopoly. No creativity, no involvement from Ed or Steven or Salvatore or anyone. Peter buying TSR gave TSR/D&D time to prove itself a valuable asset to the company rather than something you squeeze for money and dump when it's dry (which Hasbro has done many times with other companies).
So watch your mouth when you don't know what you're talking about.
Er - no offense to you, Mr. Reynolds, or Peter Adkinson, but if Hasbro had a known track record of, as you put it, squeezing companies they buy for money and then dumping them when they're dry, then why did he sell WotC to them in the first place? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 19:09:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
Er - no offense to you, Mr. Reynolds, or Peter Adkinson, but if Hasbro had a known track record of, as you put it, squeezing companies they buy for money and then dumping them when they're dry, then why did he sell WotC to them in the first place?
Hasbro has a history of buying failing companies and parting them out. Which is what would have happened quicker and to a far greater degree, if Peter Adkinson had not turned TSR/D&D around from "trouble with the printers". The fact the D&D is still a brand name for Hasbro and product is still being put out for gamers is a reflection of this.
Was it a bad idea to sell, perhaps though as CEO the first duty was to the share holders not the product itself. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Setepsutekh
Acolyte
United Kingdom
12 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 20:27:25
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I have retracted my comment about Mr Adkinson and in response to Sean's post I have emailed him privately to resolve the arguement. Peter did do a excellent job of salvaging D&D from TSR and I'm very happy he did such a brilliant service to the D&D community.
Now I hope the thread will get back to the topic in question as we scribes of Candlekeep know that arguements (and that sort of thing) belong on the "Boards that shall not be Named!" . |
"And so the creature was imprisoned and his tomb cast out into the desert, never would the Scourge of the Sands threaten the lands of Mulhorand...(the rest is worn away)
- Ancient hieroglyphics found amid the ruins of the Raurin Desert
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seankreynolds
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
91 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 20:27:32
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First, let me apologize for coming down so hard on Setepsutekh; I guess I'm feeling a little defensive.
{Er - no offense to you, Mr. Reynolds, or Peter Adkinson, but if Hasbro had a known track record of, as you put it, squeezing companies they buy for money and then dumping them when they're dry, then why did he sell WotC to them in the first place?}
Perhaps because he felt that D&D and Magic were valuable enough and long-lasting enough that Hasbro (1) would continue to make money on them year after year, and therefore (2) wouldn't have any need to squeze them. Note that Hasbro has owned WotC for 6-7 years now and WotC is still making huge amounts of money for the company, a sign that Peter knew what he was doing.
Examples of squeezed companies: Galoob, The Learning Company. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 01:59:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Setepsutekh
I have retracted my comment about Mr Adkinson and in response to Sean's post I have emailed him privately to resolve the arguement.
Thanks for taking it private. I and I'm sure others appreciate that mature move.
SB |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 03:20:39
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Setepsutekh
I have retracted my comment about Mr Adkinson and in response to Sean's post I have emailed him privately to resolve the arguement.
Thanks for taking it private. I and I'm sure others appreciate that mature move.
SB
<hides the popcorn and drinks>
One thing that has me a bit irritated is the 2-3 pages of "spam" in the back of the books lately. Those valuable pages should be filled with content, or better yet Indexes. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 13:07:04
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Those valuable pages should be filled with content, or better yet Indexes.
Indexes seem to be going the way of the dinosaur... |
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Anyone else sick of WOTC Penny pinching?
