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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 03:24:21
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My list of complaints with WOTC product range continues to grow it would seem
First we dont get any maps in Serpent Kingdoms and only one in LEOF
Then we get slogged with WOTC cutting 32 pages out of the book (you'll stick pay the same amount as a 192 page book, which basicly makes it a price increase by stealth)
Then they stick ads on 3 of the remaining 160 pages in CoR (and apparently CoS)
Now Ive just read over at Enworld that the physical quality of DMG2 and CoS books has dropped (ie bad binding and an increase in the Print size)
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Emperor Sigismund
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 03:44:54
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Well there have been editor errors as well, overall from reports it is better the "Trouble with the Printers" that heralded TSR going down.
The division of Hasbro needs to be profitable and managers of that division cerainly need to choices as to what product to put out.
The complaint about large print is an interesting one. As that increases production costs per word. Certainly not a sign of a company having money problems. It tends to be hard to get higher retail price on book of same size.
While maps/color more so, are more costly then words it would strike me the smaller print font would have allowed for some maps (or at least more words) for the same retail price and overall page count.
Am I tried of poor product, shakes head, nope I am getting used to this condition.
I would like to see better product. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 04:38:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Am I tried of poor product, shakes head, nope I am getting used to this condition.
And Im sure thats exactly what WOTC hope we'll do  |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 05:02:05
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Getting upset with WOTC may not be the actual root of the issue. WOTC is a company that made its name on gaming. The issues that you are bemoaning are more indicitive of Hasbro, the parent company.
I books are expensive to produce and do not have a high profit margin. If the market shows that consumers with pay X for a book, you need to make the book cheaper to increase the profit margin, which you can do by decreasing labor cost to produce the book, which helps a little, but on on your innitial outlay, and you can make fewer pages, which is cheaper on a per unit basis.
Just as an aside, parent companies don't always have a resonable expectation of their subsidiary companies. I once worked for a company that made industrial cooling towers. Their profit margin was, lets call it X. They were their own company for years, and then they were owned by a pharmacutical company, which quickly sold them to a company that made steel box cars, chains, and steel wheels. The latter company was used to making 2X in profit margin on all of their goods, and pushed the new division to make 2X in profits as well, even though the division was profitable. They wanted to use the same rule for all of the divisions, becuase it made it easier to justify things to the stockholders.
I guess my point is, you can second guess Hasbro, but don't get too mad at the editors and writers at WOTC who may want to make exactly the product that you are asking for, but who are under stress to make it cheaper and make more money from the parent company, not because of greed (per se) but becuase it fits a simpler paradim for presentation to the stockholders (which in the end DOES translate to greed). |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 05:06:19
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| Another thing that WotC seems to be cutting back on is the artwork in a sourcebook. If you go over to WotC's art galleries and look at the older sourcebooks, tehre seems to be much more artworks than the newer ones like Champion of Ruins or City of Waterdeep. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 06:10:44
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Another thing that WotC seems to be cutting back on is the artwork in a sourcebook. If you go over to WotC's art galleries and look at the older sourcebooks, tehre seems to be much more artworks than the newer ones like Champion of Ruins or City of Waterdeep.
I'd love to see them cut back even more on artwork... I either don't care about or flat out dislike much of the art we've seen in 3E books. Nixing that would bump the profit margin up... Or going back to simple black and white, like most of the artwork in 1E or 2E. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 06:13:11
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| Yeah, the pages are much more extravagant now. And I miss the black and white Valerie Valusek drawings . . . she was one of my favorites. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 07:30:22
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Another thing that WotC seems to be cutting back on is the artwork in a sourcebook. If you go over to WotC's art galleries and look at the older sourcebooks, there seems to be much more artworks than the newer ones like Champion of Ruins or City of Waterdeep.
The Art is one of the few things that has improved, where no longer getting the ugly animie art work that we got in earlier FR products (Particularly ROF). If less art means more realmslore then I can live with it. |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 07:41:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Or going back to simple black and white, like most of the artwork in 1E or 2E.
To tell you the truth, I preferred that. Colourful images are all well and good, but those simple black and white drawings gave the 1e/2e sourcebooks a feeling that you were actually reading about some long forgotten place in a land far away -- to put it simply, they gave me the impression that these places I was reading about were actually "real".
The coloured images subtract from that impression. While they may have originally been intended to add more realism to a sourcebook, for me they've had the opposite effect.
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 07:42:10
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| I myself love the artwork. It allows a more "definite" image on the things we read about in novels and sourcebooks on FR. While some of you complained about not enough maps, I think that I prefer more artwork than maps. Of course, this is just my own personal opinion. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 08:23:48
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Well, it depends really.
I do not mind a decreased pagecount, because I believe a price increase was due anyway. I would have preferred a straight increase in price, but thats me.
The lack of maps in SK and LEOF was strange and made them more difficult to use. Particulary SK needed more maps because I not very familiar with the areas in question. Still, Waterdeep has lots of maps from what I read, so I am hopeful.
Three page ads is very annoying. When I have purchased a product, I expect to not be bothered with commercials, even if I like the products in question.
I believe ads make a huge difference for magazines, but not with books. The three page ads has to go.
So far I am a happy FR customer, eagerly awaiting the next product. Which leads me to...
Bad binding, if that indeed is the case, is unforgivable. I will still buy an essential book like Waterdeep with a ghastly glossy cover and bad binding, because I am a sucker, but I will not buy merely nice-to-have books like Champions of Ruin and (probably) Champions of Valor. I love sturdy tomes, and after 100+ FR books I do not need more badly bound books to fall apart on the bookshelf.
The really sad thing is that every now and then a book comes along that seem like a nice-to-have book, but that in fact is essential, like Lost Empires of Faerun.
So everybody looses with bad bindings. Someone on the enworld boards wrote that bad binding would be seppuku for the FR books business-wise, and I agree. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 11:03:24
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What makes me (couldn't find the end of my phrase in english...) about wotc is the previous books they have realesed how to play in cold / hot environnement, the complete how-to-make-characters-more-and-more-powerful-adding-dozens-of-feats-and-prc!
I can create feats and prc and print them!
Fortunately in think FR setting is safe from that tendency (apart of PGtF). I used to buy any single wotc book... not anymore from far! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 11:48:56
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| I didn't realise it has been so long ago! November 2003: Draconomicon |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 13:47:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
First we dont get any maps in Serpent Kingdoms and only one in LEOF
Sad thing is, I'm become so accustomed to this that I really don't hear about/purchase a product expecting any maps.
quote:
Then they stick ads on 3 of the remaining 160 pages in CoR (and apparently CoS)
Kinda reminds me of the ads before a show at movie theaters.
quote:
Now Ive just read over at Enworld that the physical quality of DMG2 and CoS books has dropped (ie bad binding and an increase in the Print size)
Now that is very disturbing. Can you provide a link to this thread? |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 13:48:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Am I tried of poor product, shakes head, nope I am getting used to this condition.
And Im sure thats exactly what WOTC hope we'll do
Precisely. The only way WOTC will change is if for some reason these changes produce an adverse effect (sales go down). Otherwise, if people continue to purchase their products at the same quantity....why should they change? |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 13:50:48
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quote:
Originally posted by zemd
I used to buy any single wotc book... not anymore from far!
Change that to to "every single Realms book" for this consumer and you have my situation summed up. |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 13:59:28
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| I have to agree with much of what Dargoth is saying. My main gripe is the page count - if a price rise was due anyway, which I accept it probably was, I'd rather see a price increase than a page cut at the same price. I like my maps, I'd say they border on essential as they make things much clearer, particularly in a product like SK. I could probably deal with one page of ads but three seems excessive. I have no real idea of how feasible this is but why not mass produce a leaflet/flyer and stick it in all new products? Artwork depends, some I like, some I don't, some I'm impartial to. But if less artwork means more Realmslore, I imagine most of us wouldn't get too upset. As for the bad bindings, that may just be a bad batch. The only one of my books which is falling apart is my PHB and that has probably been used more than any of my other books. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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zemd
Master of Realmslore
France
1103 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 16:29:13
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by zemd
I used to buy any single wotc book... not anymore from far!
Change that to to "every single Realms book" for this consumer and you have my situation summed up.
In fact that what i meant... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 16:33:06
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Yeah, the pages are much more extravagant now. And I miss the black and white Valerie Valusek drawings . . . she was one of my favorites.
Oh, I agree! Valerie Valusek did some fantastic (pun not intended) artwork, and I'd love to see more of it.
The reason I'm so down on the artwork is because 95% of the time, it does nothing for me. I find a great many of the pictures to either hold little visual appeal or to even be unattractive. The fact that it also rarely tracks with descriptions is also something I find highly irksome.
To use some actual CoS examples... Pics of monsters and magical items are fine; those actually can come in handy. Those I have no problem with.
But...
On page 131, there's a pic of an adventurer being attacked by a gargoyle. Opinion: Waste of space.
On page 119, an entire column is taken up by an image of "Tribute gatherers in Umberlee's Cache". It's a trio of spiky octopi in what is assumably a submerged cavern. Opinion: Why the hey did they waste that ink and space? That artwork adds less than nothing to the book.
On page 90, there's an image of "Righteous Sister Kadila adh Vitendi". I've not read the description, so I don't know if the artwork matches. But I'm not impressed by the artwork, and would happily lose it.
On page 87, there's a pic of "Kyriani Agrivar, a Moonstar agent". It somewhat tracks with the description, but not entirely. Her described hair color is different from what it was in the comics. Even accounting for that, her appearance is nothing like what she looked like in the comics or in Cloak & Dagger. I seriously dislike this artwork -- it's ugly to me, and I want it gone from my book.
Those are just a few examples. I could go thru each book and pick out images I dislike, but I'll not do that.
To be fair, there were some images in 2E books that I thought were wastes of space, too. But there was also some really great ones, even in straight black and white.
I'd not complain about the artwork as much if it was more attractive and more useful. But it is neither, and thus is detracting from the books I buy. |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 21:44:02
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Personally, it was with the Best of the Realms anthology that I came to see WotC (and its owner Hasbro) as a tad greedy. That anthology was made up of the best short stories published in previous Realms of... anthologies.
All the stories but one, that is - the short story by R.A. Salvatore, the best-selling FR author. So if I want to read that one new short story, I have to buy nine or ten short stories I already own.
If WotC had wanted to remain faithful to the anthology's theme, they could have picked one of Salvatore's previous short stories. Certainly Dark Mirror, The Third Level or Guenwhyvar were good enough to be selected.
I consider it a slap in the face by WotC, with them basically saying "Thank you so much for buying our previous anthologies! Now, if you want to have the one new short story in this one, the story by our most popular and best-selling author, you have to buy, oh, nine or ten short stories you already own!" I haven't forgotten or forgiven.
Oh, and my dislike of WotC has increased of late with Resurrection (whose bitterly lackluster ending has come to make me view the whole WotSQ as a cynical attempt to cash in on WotC's two hottest-selling names, drow and Salvatore) and Champions of Ruin (where the most fearsome monsters in FR were lobotomized to "make them attractive targets for epic-level parties," which resulted in Kezef the Chaos Hound having a pathetic CR of 21). |
Edited by - Krafus on 18 Jun 2005 21:47:17 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2005 : 23:19:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
Oh, and my dislike of WotC has increased of late with Resurrection (whose bitterly lackluster ending has come to make me view the whole WotSQ as a cynical attempt to cash in on WotC's two hottest-selling names, drow and Salvatore)
No offense, but you needed a lackluster ending to realize WOTC was trying to cash in on those two big names you listed?  |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 01:01:40
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| My satisfaction with FR & WotC products has been very high. I find the prices to be fair and within reason, given the quality of the lore and the high production values. I am always delighted to get a hold of a new FR book. I have not been disappointed yet. |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 01:32:44
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
No offense, but you needed a lackluster ending to realize WOTC was trying to cash in on those two big names you listed?
I realized they were trying to cash in earlier in the series; however, I didn't mind paying them good money as long as they provided me with good reading. Annihilation made me grind my teeth, but I could tell myself "It's not the last book, things will probably improve in the series' ending." I was even more hopeful when I learned it was Paul Kemp writing Resurrection.
Unfortunately, he screwed up the book's ending, and thus the series' ending, and this has caused me to view the whole series in an increasingly bitter and negative light. (The same thing happened with Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time.) Pity, too. Things looked so bright with the first three WotSQ books... |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 02:10:01
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| In regards to VV Wooly, I think she conveyed more in a black and white drawing than a lot of the art that we see now. In regards to Kyriani, nothing beats that curly big hair 80's look she had going on now does it (really, I mean it, she was the best looking female in the comics). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 06:50:33
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
In regards to VV Wooly, I think she conveyed more in a black and white drawing than a lot of the art that we see now. In regards to Kyriani, nothing beats that curly big hair 80's look she had going on now does it (really, I mean it, she was the best looking female in the comics).
She was indeed -- especially in the end of the "Lawyers!" issue!
But yeah, VV had some nicely detailed and flavorful artwork, unlike much of the full-color artwork that's been gracing these newer tomes. Her art was always good to look at, and never seemed like filler -- like some of the art in this tome.
And heck, while I'm talking about artwork, I'd love to see them get Larry Elmore back!  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 07:00:18
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| I dearly loved that Lawyers issue . . . |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 08:42:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And heck, while I'm talking about artwork, I'd love to see them get Larry Elmore back!
While I do agree with you, I'm just as happy to see Elmore continue his great work with Sovereign Stone and Dragonlance.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 19 Jun 2005 08:43:23 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 10:15:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
No offense, but you needed a lackluster ending to realize WOTC was trying to cash in on those two big names you listed?
I realized they were trying to cash in earlier in the series; however, I didn't mind paying them good money as long as they provided me with good reading. Annihilation made me grind my teeth, but I could tell myself "It's not the last book, things will probably improve in the series' ending." I was even more hopeful when I learned it was Paul Kemp writing Resurrection.
Unfortunately, he screwed up the book's ending, and thus the series' ending, and this has caused me to view the whole series in an increasingly bitter and negative light. (The same thing happened with Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time.) Pity, too. Things looked so bright with the first three WotSQ books...
I personally have to applaude Paul Kemp's attempt to close the series. A bit disappointing yes, but a total failure No.
Having to had work on a 30 page report with 5 people contributing and each having to do 6 pages, I can understand the difficulties on collaborating with others to get something finished and presentable. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2005 : 10:22:57
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
No offense, but you needed a lackluster ending to realize WOTC was trying to cash in on those two big names you listed?
I realized they were trying to cash in earlier in the series; however, I didn't mind paying them good money as long as they provided me with good reading. Annihilation made me grind my teeth, but I could tell myself "It's not the last book, things will probably improve in the series' ending." I was even more hopeful when I learned it was Paul Kemp writing Resurrection.
Unfortunately, he screwed up the book's ending, and thus the series' ending, and this has caused me to view the whole series in an increasingly bitter and negative light. (The same thing happened with Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time.) Pity, too. Things looked so bright with the first three WotSQ books...
I personally have to applaude Paul Kemp's attempt to close the series. A bit disappointing yes, but a total failure No.
Having to had work on a 30 page report with 5 people contributing and each having to do 6 pages, I can understand the difficulties on collaborating with others to get something finished and presentable.
Well met
Personally, I think the story was outstanding! But I don't wish to go into this here, please use the dedicated Resurrection scroll if ye wish to discuss the novel further.
Thank ye. |
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Anyone else sick of WOTC Penny pinching?
