| Author |
 Topic  |
|
silvermage
Seeker
77 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Jun 2005 : 12:01:03
|
| Well since elves are the only ones who can learn High Magic, can non elves such as drow and humans master such High Magics especially those with an innate talent for magic. |
 |
|
|
Hammerfist
Acolyte
10 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2005 : 12:10:30
|
| By the way, is there a high magic ritual that binds a non elf and an elf together where they share some kind of link with each other? |
The hammer will strike when I say so. |
|
|
|
Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2005 : 12:13:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Hammerfist
By the way, is there a high magic ritual that binds a non elf and an elf together where they share some kind of link with each other?
Hmm,...lets see....if there is any, yes there is one such high magic ritual.
it is called The U’Aestar’Kess or in words means One Heart, One Mind, One Breath. The ritual provides a creature and an elf with a mental link, not unlike the one shared by elves in communion. This link is permanently forged. Most often, this ritual is used as a marriage rite, forging a bond between spouses, though it is not limited to pairs of elves. An elf can be placed in u’aestar’kess with only two beings over his life time.
|
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
|
|
|
Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2005 : 12:15:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Carion Hunter
Ahem! Pardon, an extra question, how about this, what is Saloh’Cint’Nias?
it means the Gift of Alliance in the common language, to add a little more information about this ritual, here it is.
By this ritual, A High Mage can call upon the ancient allies of the Tel’Quessir for aid in the defense of an elven realm. Summoned beings that include dragons, devas (astral, etc.), bariaur, baelnorn or even some godly ones as well.
|
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2005 : 17:17:45
|
quote:
Originally posted by silvermage
Well since elves are the only ones who can learn High Magic, can non elves such as drow and humans master such High Magics especially those with an innate talent for magic.
No. Not even half elves can learn high magic. They just don't have the connection to the Weave (and it's theorized that the drow lack the communal cohesiveness for High Magic, there haven't been any dark elven high mages since the Crown Wars). Also, it takes 70+ years to learn the *basics* of high magic, so that rules humans out immidiately. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2005 : 22:51:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
quote:
Originally posted by silvermage
Well since elves are the only ones who can learn High Magic, can non elves such as drow and humans master such High Magics especially those with an innate talent for magic.
No. Not even half elves can learn high magic. They just don't have the connection to the Weave (and it's theorized that the drow lack the communal cohesiveness for High Magic, there haven't been any dark elven high mages since the Crown Wars). Also, it takes 70+ years to learn the *basics* of high magic, so that rules humans out immidiately.
That's not entirely 100% correct, I'm afraid.
Anyone can use high magic, provided they learn/find the rituals and understand enough to cast it correctly.
The real trick is SURVIVING said casting.
Looking at Epic castings and all that jazz, you could actually do a High Magic ritual with no elves, if you had enough people for support, enough very high level workers of Art, and enough things to sacrifice (i.e. relics, artifacts, etc.) so they get destroyed instead of the casters, etc.... Obviously lots of what ifs and if thens, but it's possible....
The more likely scenario across Realms history:
"I have found the notes of Orjalun, and I've got everything assembled to cast this great spell!"
<goes through the spell casting, face beatific in the frenzy of powerful magics>
"I understand! By Mystra's shining eyes, it's marvelous!"
<wet explosion as the poor wee bastard explodes from overloading his system with magics not meant to be carried alone>
The main reason I set up High Magic the way I did in 2E was for game balance and to restrict it to NPC use; while I still believe it's better as a story element than a game element, it can be cast by anyone who can comprehend the rituals.
One of the primary reasons people still hunt for the Nether Scrolls is that they're the Aryvandarran "cheat sheets" on High Magic, as it were. A lot of what Aryvandarr wrote down and what was found by the Netherese was what they could understand and plunder from the High Magic city and libraries of Miyeritar.
Is that ALL there is to High Magic? Sheesh, no. The First and Fifth Crown Wars probably destroyed or locked away vastly more lore than the modern Realms has ever seen on High Magic. Makes you wonder what's truly behind Kraanfhaor's Door (from LOST EMPIRES), dunnit? 
Yes, I'm probably contradicting myself a bit as I've not reread CORMANTHYR in an age, and it's also unofficial in the sense that I'm not a game designer for WOTC either. Still, they're my opinions and I thought I'd stick my head in and drop them off for discussion.
Steven
Who still holds that some powerful elven magics are exclusively for those of elven blood (like kiira and such)....but he also reminds folk that Khelben, while outwardly human, counts as having elven blood (as a few of his descendants), so never say never.... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
|
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 10 Jun 2005 : 23:07:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
One of the primary reasons people still hunt for the Nether Scrolls is that they're the Aryvandarran "cheat sheets" on High Magic, as it were. A lot of what Aryvandarr wrote down and what was found by the Netherese was what they could understand and plunder from the High Magic city and libraries of Miyeritar.
Did you envision the Nether Scrolls as Elven in origin? There has been some claims that they came from an older source.
|
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 10 Jun 2005 23:09:34 |
|
|
|
Sandhrune
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 00:00:55
|
| The Nether Scrolls were created by the ancient creator race, the Sarrukh. The Nether Scrolls were originally call the Golden Skins of the World Serpent and penned by a group of the Sarrukh called the Ba'etith. The scrolls were then conviniently left for the Netherese to find by the Sarrukh called Arthindol, known to the Netherese as the Terraseer, a lich ruler of Oreme. |
Edited by - Sandhrune on 11 Jun 2005 00:02:45 |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 00:20:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sandhrune
The Nether Scrolls were created by the ancient creator race, the Sarrukh. The Nether Scrolls were originally call the Golden Skins of the World Serpent and penned by a group of the Sarrukh called the Ba'etith. The scrolls were then conviniently left for the Netherese to find by the Sarrukh called Arthindol, known to the Netherese as the Terraseer, a lich ruler of Oreme.
"Aryvandarr wrote down" A Elven nation. I do know canon changes , my question was what view was many years ago.
Not sure if Sarrukh existed in 2nd Edition at all, however it is posible. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 00:41:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Sandhrune
The Nether Scrolls were created by the ancient creator race, the Sarrukh. The Nether Scrolls were originally call the Golden Skins of the World Serpent and penned by a group of the Sarrukh called the Ba'etith. The scrolls were then conviniently left for the Netherese to find by the Sarrukh called Arthindol, known to the Netherese as the Terraseer, a lich ruler of Oreme.
"Aryvandarr wrote down" A Elven nation. I do know canon changes , my question was what view was many years ago.
Not sure if Sarrukh existed in 2nd Edition at all, however it is posible.
One is mentioned in 1E, in the original Lords of Darkness. He wasn't originally described as a sarrukh, but Serpent Kingdoms later clarified that. Hsssthak of Isstossef is in the "Mummies" adventure starting on page 34, and then is more fully described on pages 80 and 81. Page 96 of Serpent Kingdoms identifies him as a sarrukh. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Sandhrune
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 00:47:00
|
Sorry,
From the 2nd ed. Netheril box set:
"It’s unknown who created the nether scrolls. Some believed that they were gifts left by the Creator Races to the humans of Toril. Others believe that they were a gift from Mystryl, the goddess of magic. Other beliefs hold that the nether scrolls are of unworldly origin, perhaps from the outer planes or from some crystal sphere beyond Realmspace."
"Some races, like the elves, brought their own magic with them when they migrated to Toril‚ and it’s doubtful that their style of magic use was influenced much by the nether scrolls."
That was under the item description for the nether scrolls in the 2nd ed. box set.
|
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 01:13:55
|
| The first reference I remember to the Nether Scrolls was in FR5 Savage Frontier, which is also the first time that the "Creator Races" were mentioned, though they were not named, just described (i.e. lizard focused creator race, amphibian creator race, avian creator race). |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 01:30:19
|
Indeed my Wooly friend . . . if I remember correctly back then they I THINK (I don't have it with me at the moment) that FR5 implied that there were ONLY three creator races.
But I could be wrong (though I did commit much of that tome to memory, as it was my second favorite at the time, right behind FR1 Waterdeep and the North). |
|
|
|
StromLancer
Acolyte
41 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 02:26:45
|
| Perhaps Its time to talk about the High Magic Mythals, lets see...is there information about the Mythals or otherwise called the Mantle of the Weave? Used in Myth Drannor and Evereska? |
Lead the war fate commands you to!
...but are you fighting the true enemy? |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 02:39:02
|
Magic of Faerun discusses mythals in general, as well as detailing some aspects of specific mythals around the Realms.
Ruins of Myth Drannor is the best source for information on the mythal for that region. Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves and Fall of Myth Drannor also contain some lore on mythals, and both are available for free download at the WotC website.
D&D Downloads at WotC:- http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 11 Jun 2005 02:40:01 |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jun 2005 : 20:05:45
|
Elven High Magic seems to be one of those things that the rules have now tried to quantify quickly as epic level magic that elves can cast that is cheaper and easier for them if they take the Elven High Mage prestige class. I was thinking that I would like for it to have more texture, and this is what it got me to thinking of.
First off, once an elf is a High Mage, I think that there might be spells on his spell list that are lower level, not just epic level spells, that are now added to his list. In other words, there are special 1-9th level spells that other spellcasters, even elves, don't get to use unless they have trained as a High Mage.
Secondly, I think that if you are using the Incatations optional rule from Unearthed Arcana, High Mages might train innitiates in all sorts of special Incatations that no one has any idea exist, and ones that may only work for those of elven blood or those who have learned ancient elven songs and stories.
And tying those two in with what Steven said, yes, a High Mage could teach the new 1-9th level spells to other workers of the Art, or show others how the Incantaions worked, but they wouldn't do so, and if someone just found a spellbook with the spells or proceedures in them and didn't know the "workarounds" for those not of elven blood . . . well it wouldn't be pretty.
(Funny how programming and spellcasting just begs to use the same parlance . . . ) |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 02:37:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
(Funny how programming and spellcasting just begs to use the same parlance . . . )
I'm glad another scribe besides Edain Shadowstar and myself have finally noticed that  .
I know that every time I implement a new algorithm or sub-routine, it always feels like I'm learning an incantation and then "casting" it to alter the substance of reality (in this case, the program itself [written in code] represents the reality being altered).
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 02:50:49
|
| Yeah, the more I got into computers (my fiance and her son are the real computer archmagi) the more I noticed the similarities between programs and spells. I guess that would mean that the Weave and the Shadow Weave are two different programming languagues? |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 03:25:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I guess that would mean that the Weave and the Shadow Weave are two different programming languagues?
Actually, I've had a similar discussion before, at work surprisingly with the only co-worker I know who also campaigns in the Realms.
We jokingly postulated that C++ represents the Weave... deceptively simple and elegant, yet infinitely complex. Visual C on the other hand is the copy, originally meant to fill in the gaps of the original, but instead created an entirely new framework for programming err... spellcasting .
No, wait... .
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 18:15:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
'Tis a retcon. Newer lore trumps older lore.
My bad. See why I rely so much on Eric and George for the lore stuff? 
Forgot about the elder origins of the Nether Scrolls; where the short circuit in my brain was this--The Netherese discovered what is now always known as the Nether Scrolls in the ruins of Aryvandaar. I guess I'll retcon myself and suggest that what the Vyshanti corrupt high mages worked with for high mages were cheat sheets that were far less comprehensive than what one might've learned from High Mages of Miyeritar.
How's that for a backpedal and rationalization? |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
|
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jun 2005 : 18:33:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
How's that for a backpedal and rationalization?
OK, if that is how you want it or now correctly recall it *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
StromLancer
Acolyte
41 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 10:40:09
|
I have some questions here:
1) Are the high mages identities publicaly known to all elves or at least the elven monarchies?
2) Are the high mages always a mage, can they be of other classes yet also a high mage?
3) What purposes does the elven high mages serve? |
Lead the war fate commands you to!
...but are you fighting the true enemy? |
|
|
|
Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 10:44:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by StromLancer
I have some questions here:
1) Are the high mages identities publicaly known to all elves or at least the elven monarchies?
2) Are the high mages always a mage, can they be of other classes yet also a high mage?
3) What purposes does the elven high mages serve?
To answer the first question: Well, I think all high mages keep their identities a secret, if it is made known, I think asassination of the high mages would be the order of the day. There are some rumors that only the Cor’Selu’taar, or Grand Mage has a known identity and some say the oldest elf among the High Mages.
2) Not always, I think they may be of other classes as well. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
Edited by - Shadovar on 14 Jun 2005 10:44:49 |
|
|
|
Adarin
Acolyte
30 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 10:50:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by StromLancer
I have some questions here:
1) Are the high mages identities publicaly known to all elves or at least the elven monarchies?
2) Are the high mages always a mage, can they be of other classes yet also a high mage?
3) What purposes does the elven high mages serve?
For the answer to the third question
3) They are to use High Magic to aid elves in such ways as extending their lives creating tree-dwellings, crystalline towers, and other homes for the People, raising morale in battle and demoralizing the enemy, and summoning allies from outer planes and they are also the ones who carry out the punishment of the worst of elvenkind by transforming them into dark elves, known to elves as dhaeraow and to humans and non-elves as "drow".
|
There will always be parting of ways which is never of your preference. |
|
|
|
Phaerimm Bane
Acolyte
10 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 10:53:42
|
| Ahem, can I know what is High Magic in elven means? How is it that the High Mages are not that willing to teach non-elves though some non-elves have good chaacteristics and the calibre to learn such arts? |
A phaerimm? Let me butcher it! |
|
|
|
Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2005 : 11:01:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Phaerimm Bane
Ahem, can I know what is High Magic in elven means? How is it that the High Mages are not that willing to teach non-elves though some non-elves have good chaacteristics and the calibre to learn such arts?
The answer to your first question is:
High Magic to the elves means Arselu’Tel’Quess or so called Great Art of the People.
The answer to your second question is:
For some security reasons, they are never that willing to teach non-elves as I think has to do with the rise of netheril's arcanists and the disaster wrought by Netheril's arcanists. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
|
|
|
Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 14:58:53
|
Well, here is a question. It seems that there are still some Elven High Mages, and yet it is said that after the Fall of Netheril, Mystra changed the rules of access to the Weave to prevent spells of that magnitude from being used in the future.
And on the other hand, the Wards of Silverymoon are to all intents and purposes a Mythal (details in The Silver Marches) although it is more often called a "near Mythal" - the distinction principally seeming to be that it was not made by Elven High Mages.
I imagine that as much of High Magic as still works - and the extent to which it works - is known only to those elves who hold the secrets. And if they were that willing to use it, Evereska's Mythal would likely be repaired (if it can be repaired) rather than flickering disconcertingly and causing constant, misty rainfall.
So I think that there are some feats that modern practicioners cannot duplicate (another Dark Disaster or Sundering is unlikely) ... Unless some unscrupulous, demented and very gifted worker of the Shadow Weave should develop these methods, because the sort of safeguards which Mystra would impose seem likely to be precisely the sort that it would amuse Shar to omit. |
|
|
|
Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2005 : 16:04:35
|
| On a side note, I always wondered why the elven mythals were subject to decay and corruption, yet the human mythals were not. Any ideas? |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
High Magic of the Elves
