| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 14:01:04
|
| I think the initial comparision; not caring about a major car accident unless it involves someone you know, is false as it leaves out a major aspect. Most of us don't cause those accidents. Jarlaxle did cause the massive destruction in Luskan. And he's largely responsible for its further decline through negligence. His actions deprived the city of a strong ruling body(either the captains, Deudermont, or the Brotherhood) to hold it together during the spellplague. Jarlaxle was the power behind the throne, and he chose to do nothing, rather allowing it to fall into squaller while he set up shop in another city, because it was more cost effective. Oh, did I mention that he allowed one of the high captains to keep one of the wizards who actually helped his plan along(unknowingly, but still) as a sex slave for 8 years, for no other reason than to keep the captain happy and because the wizard was no longer useful? Just thought I'd bring that up. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
 |
|
|
ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 22:45:30
|
| ok, you've amost completely convinced me. still, I'm of the mind he could still be Chaotic Neutral leaning Evil, as I stated earlier. but, I'm even more adamant now about leaving him Chaotic Evil when I use him. |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
|
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 23:16:47
|
Jarlaxle had a major hand in the downfall of Luskan back in 1376-77 DR, in The Pirate King. He was still pretty evil at that time.
But he seems different in The Ghost King, in 1385 DR. I'd say that he turned good, there.
In Gauntlgrym (1409-1462 DR), he's all over the place. At times, he seems concerned for the good guys; at other times, he's perfectly OK with serving his own ends, even it looks like it would be at others' expense.
It's particularly irksome trying to figure out exactly why Jar lectures Drizzt about not living up to his principles, when Jar comes off as so wishy-washy himself. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 03:41:58
|
CT posted: "actually, Allystra, that kind of motivation and behavior is what I'd consider Evil, not Neutral. self-serving is the blatant description of Neutral Evil."
I think you may be confusing self-serving with self-absorbed. It's not JUST that he's out for number one, in fact, he's MORE than willing to help others, even occasionally when it DOESN'T halp him too (like with Artemis), but for the most part, he just doesn't CARE what happens to total strangers. So he caused the war through his manipulations- that's different from any other "power behind the throne", HOW? He didn't decide (at least not intentionally) "I'm going to start a war so that I can get better deals and have more influence in the chaos." His intentions seem to have been simply to change the power-structure of the city to better suit his interests. The fact that it DID end up starting a war is incidental. He wanted leaders who would be more amenable to his requests and who would be easy to nudge in whatever direction he wanted.
Setting Deudermont against them was merely his way of trying to shake the power-tree. He was hoping that either of the two power bases (Brotherhood and Captains) would crumble and leave just one. That didn't happen. It became a cluster-f*** that ended with NO ONE really coming out on top, and much more carnage than anyone could have really expected. As I see it, he probably wrote that venture off as a failure, or at least as not going as planned. Hardly the epitome of evil.
Jarlaxle posted: "Jarlaxle is and allways has been evil. If it would suit his needs he wouldn't have a problem with killing 100 babies, that he prefers not to do it if he hasn't has to doesn't change his allignment."
I really have to disagree with that statement. The Jarlaxle I've read about would not kill babies at all- it would be pointless in his estimation, and serve no use to him or anyone else. Wasted potential. As callous as he can be at times, (remember, he's a DROW!!) he still has a basic sense of honor and decency about some things- and I'm pretty sure that if he got into a situation were someone wanted him to kill babies, Jarlaxle would refuse, or even find a way to make them THINK he did it, while actually doing something else entirely! Think about this- Jarlaxle never thinks in terms of black and white, and never just one or two options. On the contrary, he's always thinking at least five steps ahead of everyone around him, much like a very good chess player. He's the definition of a pragmatist, not the cruel, baby-killing evil ba$ta** you imply. Pragmatists tend to be neutral, not evil. Being chaotic and self-absorbed does not make one evil.
As for not causing the car wreck in the comparison, perhaps it would be better to equate him with a hit and run driver. He may feel guilt about it, and may even have some concern over what happens to the other person- it's just that he doesn't consider it as important as his own affairs. Callous, perhaps, but by no means evil. Just very insensitive. Jarlaxle isn't so much IMMORAL, as he is AMORAL.
|
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 09:51:24
|
eh... I dunno, I don't think that he's that clueless. yeh, he wasn't entirely sure of what he was doing, he was just going "I wonder what happens if I poke fate with a stick right here..?" and basically winging it the whole way. however, he has done this exact kinda thing often enough to expect some kind of disastrous calamity, and he just kinda nodded his head and went with it, knowing full well that innocent people were gonna get hurt.
I agree, Chaos does not equal Evil, and Jarlaxle is far more Chaotic than Evil. but simply not caring goes beyond Neutral, that is leastways Evil tendencies.
I also want to say, to people here in general, that folks of any alignment can have exceptions. to BEAST in particular, I want to point out that one or two instances in a single book aren't enough to count a character as having changed his entire alignment. he just swung in a certain way for a moment, maybe even a short while. it's not like he had a benevolant streak and spent the whole freaking decade listening to his conscience. |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
|
|
|
|
_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 13:57:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
The Jarlaxle I've read about would not kill babies at all- it would be pointless in his estimation, and serve no use to him or anyone else.
Err I said if it would suit his needs. So if he would get an advantage by killing them he would do it. If he wouldn't have an adavantage in it or would have the same adavantage in faking their death he wouldn't kill them. He is not the stupid choatic evil "I run around and kill everyone" type but that is not the only way of beeing evil. |
|
|
|
Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 20:26:54
|
Jarlaxle is a poster boy for Chaotic Neutral. No other alignment truly fits him.
quote:
Chaotic neutral is freedom from both society's restrictions and a do-gooder's zeal.
A chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but does not strive to protect the freedom of others. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character doesn't intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy. To do so, he would have to be motivated either by good (and a desire to liberate others) or by evil (and a desire to make others suffer). A chaotic neutral character may be unpredictable, but his behavior is not totally random. He is not as likely to jump off a bridge as to cross it.
|
|
|
|
_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 21:54:32
|
quote:
Lawful Evil, "Dominator"
A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.
This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.
This fits much better. |
|
|
|
Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 22 Apr 2011 : 22:12:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Lawful Evil, "Dominator"
A lawful evil villain methodically takes what he wants within the limits of his code of conduct without regard for whom it hurts. He cares about tradition, loyalty, and order but not about freedom, dignity, or life. He plays by the rules but without mercy or compassion. He is comfortable in a hierarchy and would like to rule, but is willing to serve. He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank. He is loath to break laws or promises.
This reluctance comes partly from his nature and partly because he depends on order to protect himself from those who oppose him on moral grounds. Some lawful evil villains have particular taboos, such as not killing in cold blood (but having underlings do it) or not letting children come to harm (if it can be helped). They imagine that these compunctions put them above unprincipled villains.
This fits much better.
Completely disagree. He may have a personal code of conduct(Any alignment can), but this is a guy who thrives on creating and profiting from chaos and breaking the rules. How does he possibly fit into a category where law and order, tradition and loyalty come first? He breaks every tradition, follows no laws and double deals on a regular basis.He cares nothing for the rules.
He also shows great regard for who he hurts.
He certainly has a portion of mercy and compassion. He does not condemn based on race, homeland, religion or social rank at all. He will use and manipulate any so long as it fits his individual needs. And he is certainly not loathe to breaking laws or promises(This is a guy who makes a living on double dealing) |
|
|
|
Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 02:33:24
|
I believe that Alystra is closer to what I consider "the truth" about Jarlaxle. I don't think a situation exists where Jarlaxle would find it beneficial to kill babies, if only because he could steal them and sell them (turning a profit) or ransom them (still, a profit) and, as I said before, I consider him one to verenate Waukeen as he is first, and foremost, a merchant. I think that the dichotomy separating Drizzt and Jarlaxle is that whereas Drizzt's conscience is something he can't escape, no matter how hard he tries, Jarlaxle can't embrace his without any respect to the effort involved. I believe his statements in anger to Drizzt are because Drizzt has made that leap whereas most drow cannot (in Jarlaxle's view.)
Good and Evil are subjective forces. When Cormyr and Zhentil Keep skirmish, the Purple Dragons are resolute that the Zhentarim are "evil" (thus, on the wrong side) and I suspect that the members of the Black Network view the War Wizards of Cormyr as evil, and Azoun as an overbearing monarch. In other words, they view Cormyr as evil, too.
What we are arguing is the general definition of good and evil from a societal view. How would a paladin of Tyr or Torm react if he found himself in a drow nursery? Would the innate ability to "detect evil" tell him that the drow babies were predisposed to evil, and must therefore be killed? How would the drow view this action? Comparably, presuming a paladin did this, how would he be received if he returned home to, say, Waterdeep and word of his deeds was made public? It is important to remember that Drizzt had to fight many years to earn people's trust in the World Above.
Jarlaxle, in comparison, doesn't try to earn anyone's trust unless it suits his means. But he does seem very fervent in keeping his word (the intent, if not the letter) due to his own personal, and somewhat incomprehensible sense of honor. Because of his unpredictability, Jarlaxle is chaotic. Because he does not conform to the public, common perception of good nor evil, he best aligns with neutral. This doesn't prevent him from performing evil (or good) acts; he doesn't view them as such, though. Drizzt sees "the goodly races of the Realms" and views the drow as evil, as does most of society. He hates his heritage and seeks to escape it. Jarlaxle embraces the aspects he likes, and discards those he does not. I don't find Jarlaxle a dominator, I see him as trying to avoid authority, willingly handing control of Bregan D'arthe as it suits him.
Finally, the descriptions on the alignments are guidelines, not absolutes. While a paladin may "fall from grace" for an evil act, a Lawful Good fighter would not change alignment simply because she accidentally killed a companion in the fog of war. Sure, Jarlaxle has attributes that might make him seem Chaotic Evil at times, but his actions always bring him back to the center.
|
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
|
|
|
ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 10:27:49
|
ya know, Azuth, I realy like this post. th eonly thing I find iffy about it is the idea that drow babies would be dedected as evil. >.>
they are babies. morality is one part learned behavior, and one part predisposed, however even that predisposed part needs time to develop an can be changed under the right circumstances. it's oo young to tell in babies what their nature is. |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
|
|
|
|
_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 10:58:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Completely disagree.
Yes you arwe right, somehow I copied the wrong part and didn't check iit 
quote:
Neutral Evil, "Malefactor"
A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn’t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.
Some neutral evil villains hold up evil as an ideal, committing evil for its own sake. Most often, such villains are devoted to evil deities or secret societies.
Neutral evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents pure evil without honor and without variation.
This is what I meant. He does what he wants and whats suits him, if he helps others wiht it its ok with him, if he hurts them its ok too.
He is missing the love for conflict, so hes not chaotic evil and he does not belong to those who hold up evil as an ideal.
Btw: Every WotC writeup of him so far listed his alignment as evil  |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 23 Apr 2011 11:02:18 |
|
|
|
ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 11:03:49
|
| ok, now that's just nonsense. >.> he's not completely heartless, and he's not that thoroughly ruthless. and he's certainly EXACTLY the kinda guy to do randomly catastrophic things for the sake of random catastrophy! he's Chaotic out the ass! |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
|
|
|
|
Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 21:33:30
|
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
Completely disagree.
Yes you arwe right, somehow I copied the wrong part and didn't check iit
quote:
Neutral Evil, "Malefactor"
A neutral evil villain does whatever she can get away with. She is out for herself, pure and simple. She sheds no tears for those she kills, whether for profit, sport, or convenience. She has no love of order and holds no illusion that following laws, traditions, or codes would make her any better or more noble. On the other hand, she doesn’t have the restless nature or love of conflict that a chaotic evil villain has.
Some neutral evil villains hold up evil as an ideal, committing evil for its own sake. Most often, such villains are devoted to evil deities or secret societies.
Neutral evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents pure evil without honor and without variation.
This is what I meant. He does what he wants and whats suits him, if he helps others wiht it its ok with him, if he hurts them its ok too.
He is missing the love for conflict, so hes not chaotic evil and he does not belong to those who hold up evil as an ideal.
Btw: Every WotC writeup of him so far listed his alignment as evil
Neutral Evil certainly is a much better fit than Lawful Evil. But Chaotic Neutral is still a much better fit. The writeups may call him evil, but everything I have read from Bob, in books and including his interactive threads, suggests Chaotic Neutral.
He certainly has no qualms about committing evil acts against other evil beings.
The amount of times he helps good guys out just because, despite the fact that he would personally profit immensely from hurting/Capturing them suggests he is not just out for himself, nor is he a creature that represents pure evil without honor or variation as the alignment suggests.
He works both ends of the spectrum. Good, and evil, which suggests neutral, and he is most certainly a being who thrives in and creates chaos.
Chaotic Neutral. No question in my mind. |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 21:47:35
|
Alystra, I think your interpretation of Jarlaxle and his handling of the Luskan incident paints him as more of a fool. A child poking a bee's nest.
While I don't think he planned ever single step out, he certianly adapted his plan as it went and I believe at the end, it turned out exactly how he wanted it to. He wanted either the captains or the Brotherhood to be the remaining power in the city, and he wanted them weakened and crippled by the conflict to the point that he would have all the power in their dealings. He was manipulating the captains from the start(we know because he had Athrogate working with them directly), he was manipulating Greeth(we know because Greeth mentions having been incontact with "unknown benifactors" for some time after the tower's fall), he deliberately got Deudermont killed(and lied to Drizzt's face about it), and by the time of the Ghost King(where he's primarily motivated by the desire to not get eaten by a dracolich) he's trying to do the same thing(to be continued) |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 23 Apr 2011 : 22:03:56
|
| Anyway. Ghost King. Jarlaxle's trying to set up a trading post in Mirabar, talking to Marchion Elastul about it. Elastul asks about his daughter, Arabeth, the wizard I mentioned earlier. Jar says (not so bluntly) that she's gotten used to her position as sex slave in the marriage that Jar is holding her prisoner in to the slimey, unpleasant & unattractive High Captain Kensidan. Then they move onto business, with Jar throwing some not so vieled threats and telling Elastul that should Kensidan(the man who the public believes outwitted & beat the arcane brotherhood) move against him, Jar would be the new ruler of Luskan. Negotiations go much better for Jar after that. So the whole thing in Luskan may have been intentional afterall; it puts a level of fear into surfacers that gives him an edge in their dealings. "He did that? To a whole city? Lets not get on his bad side!". Pretty much the same strategy that the Empire used in Star Wars with the Death Star; rule through the fear of force rather than force itself. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2011 : 23:26:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight
I also want to say, to people here in general, that folks of any alignment can have exceptions. to BEAST in particular, I want to point out that one or two instances in a single book aren't enough to count a character as having changed his entire alignment. he just swung in a certain way for a moment, maybe even a short while. it's not like he had a benevolant streak and spent the whole freaking decade listening to his conscience.
I understand that there are exceptional acts within any person's life that defy general alignment schemes.
But in TGK, Jar seemed to actually care for the suffering of Catti-brie and Drizzt. And he went out of his way to help refugees from the Spirit Soaring, despite the fact that they no longer stood to assist him in his feud with the dracolich. The guy showed compassion for others above and beyond and separate from his own immediate, selfish needs. And that's "Good", AFAIK.
He's back to his usual "Neutral" ways in Gaunt., allying with shady Thayans in Part I, and then with Drizzt & Co. in Part II. But the here-and-now Jar depicted in TGK came across as a pretty Chaotic Good guy, to me.
Understand that TPK took place in 1376-77 DR. Some of TGK's backstory took place in the following years.
TGK is set in mid-1385 DR.
And then Gaunt. doesn't even begin until 1409 DR.
So there could've been quite a few years--decades, even--during which Jar was toying around with this apparently Chaotic Good version of himself. What led to it, and away from it, I cannot say.
My point is, it did not read as a mere couple of moments in his life, to me. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2011 : 02:08:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
Alystra, I think your interpretation of Jarlaxle and his handling of the Luskan incident paints him as more of a fool. A child poking a bee's nest.
While I don't think he planned ever single step out, he certianly adapted his plan as it went and I believe at the end, it turned out exactly how he wanted it to. He wanted either the captains or the Brotherhood to be the remaining power in the city, and he wanted them weakened and crippled by the conflict to the point that he would have all the power in their dealings. He was manipulating the captains from the start(we know because he had Athrogate working with them directly), he was manipulating Greeth(we know because Greeth mentions having been incontact with "unknown benifactors" for some time after the tower's fall), he deliberately got Deudermont killed(and lied to Drizzt's face about it), and by the time of the Ghost King(where he's primarily motivated by the desire to not get eaten by a dracolich) he's trying to do the same thing(to be continued)
While all this is true, I never called him a fool- but he certainly DOES love poking a stick at things just for the fun of it, and although he certainly knew there would be conflict, I don't believe he ever considered that it would result in an all-out war. Or at the very least, I don't think he thought it would go THAT far and end up as disastrous as it did. He was probably hoping for small skirmishes between the two forces, or perhaps some covert assassin-style killings of key players to take place. Instead, he got a massive three-way battle. And the destruction of the Tower Arcane via that staff of the Archmage being broken- something he CERTAINLY would not have expected, seeing as how he most likely did not even know it was there. So that doesn't make him a fool, OR necessarily evil- after all, even the best chess players can misjudge a move.
Azuth has a pretty good grasp on where I was going, and I'll add that BEAST certainly has some good points on Jar's actions. Lawful does not suit him at all, and Neutral evil only fits him PART of the time- the rest of the time, he is most definitely more CN. And keep in mind that those source-books may stat him as CE, but that doesn't mean they are accurate, especially since they all pretty much repeat his ORIGINAL alignment as he appeared to be in his first few appearances in Homeland and Exile- LONG before we really knew anything about him. I'd say it's high time his alignment in the stats got an overhaul to account for his behavior since that time. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2011 : 12:10:52
|
| While I grant you he couldn't have known the specifics of what lead to the tower coming down; he was setting people to attack a massive tower full of magi and magical artifacts of great power. He was in direct contact with the leader of said magi. He certainly knew that they had the capability of causing destruction on the level that happened just based on common sense alone. And while he may not have thought Greeth would go as far as he did, he took that gamble with the lives of everyone in Luskan on the table. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2011 : 01:09:48
|
| So just because he makes a major misjudgment in ONE book that ends badly, that makes him EVIL?! No, that just makes him "human"! He made a mistake(albeit a really BIG one), just as he did in Gauntlegrym. And from what we've seen of Jar, mistakes of that caliber do NOT sit well with him, and usually lead to him trying to fix them by any means necessary, or at the very least to eliminate the cause of those disasters. (ie- Sylora, Greeth, and anyone else he feels had a hand in screwing up his well-laid plans.) One incident is not a basis for a character's entire alignment. You have to look at his entire history, not just what happened in one brief period of his life. He may seem callous in THAT book, but he has been caring and helpful to others in the very next book, and the one after, as well. This shows us that his leanings are definitely not in the direction of evil. Even in his own series, while certainly manipulative, it was usually for the BENEFIT of those near him, and himself often as part of the package, not necessarily first. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2011 : 03:05:54
|
You still think he considers it a mistake. I've seen nothing to suggest that he considers the events of the Pirate King other than a resounding success, greater than he could have hoped for. Not only does he have the weakest of the three parties in charge, the easiest to manipulate, that party is crippled beyond any capability of resisting him. Luskan would have been a gold mine for him for decades if the ravages of the spellplague hadn't hastened its decline. He probably thought it ended better than he could have possibly hoped.
And yes, I am saying that him intentionally ruining the lives and killing thousands of people outweighs the moral scale of being compasionate to a handfull of others, especially considering that a few of those others are as bad as he is. There's nothing about being evil that says you can't care for or be compassionate towards others within your circle. Asmodeus loves his daughter & loved his consort, but that doesn't change the fact he's one of the greatest forces of evil to exist. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2011 : 04:11:31
|
Where do you get that idea from? Granted, it's been a while since I read TPK, but I would not consider the loss of that many lives and that much destruction a success for ANYONE. For Jarlaxle to do any business there, there would actually have to be people to do business WITH. How could he do that with so many of them dead? Pardon my saying so, but exactly how did that HELP him? He may have ended up with the most easily manipulated group in charge, but at the expense of a large portion of his business. That doesn't strike me as a "success" at all. More like a LOOSING proposition, even without the Spellplague!
The idea that his actions dealing with a few people causing the deaths of so many others- INDIRECTLY- makes him inherently evil is just as much a fallacy as thinking that caring for a few people makes him "good". And for the record Jarlaxle did NOT intentionally kill all those people himself. They died because of a WAR. Yes, he was partly responsible for starting the conflict, but there are plenty of people who die in wars elsewhere in the Realms without the people who start them being evil. That's like saying Azoun is evil for going to war with the Zhents, or that the Simbul is evil for fighting a war with Thay. Yes, people die in wars, and yes, he helped to start one, (still not convinced he had explicit intentions of it going that far) but that in itself is not evidence of his being "evil" by any means. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2011 : 05:18:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Where do you get that idea from? Granted, it's been a while since I read TPK, but I would not consider the loss of that many lives and that much destruction a success for ANYONE. For Jarlaxle to do any business there, there would actually have to be people to do business WITH. How could he do that with so many of them dead? Pardon my saying so, but exactly how did that HELP him? He may have ended up with the most easily manipulated group in charge, but at the expense of a large portion of his business. That doesn't strike me as a "success" at all. More like a LOSING proposition, even without the Spellplague!
The idea that his actions dealing with a few people causing the deaths of so many others- INDIRECTLY- makes him inherently evil is just as much a fallacy as thinking that caring for a few people makes him "good". And for the record Jarlaxle did NOT intentionally kill all those people himself. They died because of a WAR. Yes, he was partly responsible for starting the conflict, but there are plenty of people who die in wars elsewhere in the Realms without the people who start them being evil. That's like saying Azoun is evil for going to war with the Zhents, or that the Simbul is evil for fighting a war with Thay. Yes, people die in wars, and yes, he helped to start one, (still not convinced he had explicit intentions of it going that far) but that in itself is not evidence of his being "evil" by any means.
While I hate to move into "real world" discussion, it is important to note that Bob Salvatore created Jarlaxle as a complex character to frustrate and inspire Drizzt. Where Entreri was his match with respect to fighting, Jarlaxle is really Drizzt's equal in almost all aspects of life; some sympathetic, and some in opposition to Drizzt's outlook on the world. Is Drizzt Chaotic Good? Is he Lawful Good? Drizzt is really complex, and moves through the various spectrums of "good" as he matures. Similarly, Jarlaxle transcends the "evil" spectrum moving toward and away from "neutral." Sometimes, Jarlaxle is very chaotic, othertimes he's more neutral. He's seldom lawful; that much is certain.
Alystra makes a good point about Azoun and the Simbul, one with which I must agree. I suspect that most of House Baerne (Jarlaxle aside) views Drizzt as evil and against the mandate of Lolth. I suspect also that Lolth views Drizzt and Jarlaxle as fantastic agents of hers fomenting chaos amongst the world, but especially the drow. Unwitting pawns and all that...
Jarlaxle isn't one to audibly admit to mistakes, so I don't know if he would ever come to that conclusion. He'd probably think "that could have turned out better."
|
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2011 : 05:42:41
|
| I agree, Azuth. The debacle in Luskan would have been a pyhrric victory for him, at best. And Jarlaxle has been all over the alignment spectrum at one point or another, but seems to swing most often into CN. Even Drizzt has his "evil" moments, after all. (Thinking specifically of his suggestion to cut off Belwar's hands and send him back "as a message" to his fellow svirfneblin. While he did it to save Belwar's life, it is still an "evil" act, which is not so different from what Jarlaxle did in Luskan. Thus proving that even "evil" acts can have good intentions behind them. As they say, "the road to hell", and all that....) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2011 : 05:49:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I agree, Azuth. The debacle in Luskan would have been a pyhrric victory for him, at best. And Jarlaxle has been all over the alignment spectrum at one point or another, but seems to swing most often into CN. Even Drizzt has his "evil" moments, after all. (Thinking specifically of his suggestion to cut off Belwar's hands and send him back "as a message" to his fellow svirfneblin. While he did it to save Belwar's life, it is still an "evil" act, which is not so different from what Jarlaxle did in Luskan. Thus proving that even "evil" acts can have good intentions behind them. As they say, "the road to hell", and all that....)
Agreed. CN serves him best on paper, but I think that trying to "type" him is ultimately an exercise in futility. Jarlaxle was designed to be an enigma, and he continues to do that very well.
|
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
|
|
|
ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2011 : 06:58:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I agree, Azuth. The debacle in Luskan would have been a pyhrric victory for him, at best. And Jarlaxle has been all over the alignment spectrum at one point or another, but seems to swing most often into CN. Even Drizzt has his "evil" moments, after all. (Thinking specifically of his suggestion to cut off Belwar's hands and send him back "as a message" to his fellow svirfneblin. While he did it to save Belwar's life, it is still an "evil" act, which is not so different from what Jarlaxle did in Luskan. Thus proving that even "evil" acts can have good intentions behind them. As they say, "the road to hell", and all that....)
ehh... I could argue that the fact that thwat was the only way Drizzt could think of to save Belwar's life (and he came up with it on the fly in the heat of the drama) COMPLETELY outways any Evil it was meant to appear like in front of his brother Dinin |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
|
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2011 : 19:54:10
|
I'm curios- why do you base his alignment on one book? One book, or more specifically the actions taken at one point in time- does not an alignment make. Granted his dealings in it were pretty shady, but I'd hesitate to call it evil based simply on the outcome. And his actions in the book before and after seem to balance it out, especiially in Road of the Patriarchs, where he was doing "good deeds" in Damaara, working as a scout and monster-slayer for the local army, helping the people there, and guiding (er, amnipulating/influencing) Entreri into becoming a more "good" and decent person. And he was already pulling his forces out of Luskan even before the Spellplague, as has already been noted elsewhere. Clearly, he did not feel it was the resounding success you imply.
It seems to me that his alignment could best be described as "chaotic pragmatic". He is willing to compromise to get the best of a situation, has no qualms about taking advantage of opportunities that come his way- be they good or evil in nature- and still manages to keep a sense of personal ethics and honor. He helps people when it suits him, sometimes even when there's no direct benefit to him, but is willing to turn a blind eye to suffering when the situation is no longer profitable. That's not evil, it's just insensitive. He made a HUGE mistake in Gauntlegrym, but he owned up to it and took steps to make things right, both out of guilt and a sense of anger at being duped. Either way, he was working in the cause of good to re-imprison the primordial- never mind his intentions in all of those instances. And if meddling in the affairs of others makes one evil, then Elminster and Khelban are guilty, as well.....
|
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 02 May 2011 : 21:57:57
|
| The law distinguishes between intentional "murder" and "reckless indifference homicide". It's possible that Jar regularly displays indifference as to who dies from his actions. But it's still pretty evil, and the doer is expected to take responsibility for his actions. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
|
|
Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2011 : 01:16:21
|
Jarlaxle's alignment is really "shifts as necessary to fit the plot." As has been discussed/argued in other topics, authors are not compelled to follow the game rules. Bob Salvatore could make Jarlaxle a paladin of Torm in his next book if he so chose. I believe that Jarlaxle is chaotic without question. But, with respect to alignment, he's more neutral on both the Law/Chaos and the Good/Evil spectrum. He's lawful when it suits his needs, and chaotic when it seems appropriate. He does "good" acts when they benefit him, and evil actions for the same reason. The ultimate statement about Jarlaxle is that he is unpredictable in a given situation, which is why he's such an interesting character. Bob could easily write many books about Jarlaxle and I suspect they'd be best-sellers on their own. But, on that note, Ed could write a book on Lhaeo, or on just Syluné, and it would be equally good. If we were able to discern how a character will always react as readers, then the authors would not be good authors. While I find this discussion interesting, we can never truly answer this question because we do not own the rights to the character. If Jarlaxle killed a random patrol of drow warriors, some would say his actions were good, others would say his actions were chaotic and self-serving, and still others would say that he was killing his own kind and thus evil. The thread of this thread is that we can point to various situations where Jarlaxle acted a certain way and say "because of example A, he's of alignment X." Jarlaxle is a character in a novel, and I'm glad that I can't really answer the question of his alignment; he's much more interesting that way.
|
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
is jarlaxle good or evil?
Topic Locked
