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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Feb 2010 : 03:04:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Wierd, it turned that into a link...
It's because there's an @ followed immediately by letters and a period -- it's seeing it as an email address.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31792 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2010 : 03:33:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Wierd, it turned that into a link...
It's because there's an @ followed immediately by letters and a period -- it's seeing it as an email address.
Interestingly, I've long tried to mail this "smart a**" individual, but I can just never seem to reach him/her. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 23 Feb 2010 03:34:55 |
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Hellblazer
Acolyte
Canada
12 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2010 : 05:56:23
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As a beginner to Realms, I believe that Jarlaxle is a Chaotic Neutral character who doesn't care about the orders but does anything to seduce his chaotic desires.
Seriously,I'm very new to Realms and to this forum. I've been to so many forums but never actually enjoyed every single post.Love these conversations  |
The best thing about the future is that it comes only one day at a time. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 25 Feb 2010 : 21:06:24
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| AH! Thank you, Wooly, I have been wondering why it does that! Oddly, it has happened before with cetain other words, etc. i just never quite knew why. So, oh great Sage, have you tried finding them on MySpace or Facebook? He/she might have a page there, lol! Also, welcome to the forums, Hellblazer. And to the nuttiness that is us all. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 06:10:54
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Canon says e's evil, and I'm content to eave it at that. however, by my own personal interpretation, I'd say he's Chaotic Neutral. XD I think he just has way to much fun poking fate with a stick to be bothered overmuch by what anyone thinks of him, and so he doesn't realy prescribe to Good or Evil (not that one has to decide to be Evil to be Evil... but it's not like he doesn't care).
my point being though, that he's definitely not a good guy. that takes more concern for others' well-being than he has by a long shot.
he's a curious, happy-go-lucky, unbothered treasure-hunter who is very in love with the shinies, and probably the only interest to challenge that is his monstrously curious nature and desire to watch things unfold once they've been nudged in an entertaining direction. |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 15:47:42
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First off I want to say I haven't read through all seven pages of this thread yet, so this might have already been brought up. Also, heavy spoilers ahead.
In The Pirate King Captain Deudermont and a noble from Waterdeep, one Lord Brambleberry(who had been Deudermont's patron) decide they want to attack Luskan to remove the Arcane Brotherhood from power as they've become too corrupt and are all but openly supporting piracy against Waterdeep ships.
Thus begins a conflict between Deudermont, the Arcane Brotherhood(lead by one Arklem Greeth), with the High Captains of Luskan playing both sides while working for their own ends. The Brotherhood is overthrown at the cost of several thousands of lives, mostly local Luskanites(some four thousand dead, if memory serves). This is just the beginning, as winter sets in and people begin to starve and freeze with their homes ruined from war and their providers killed in the fighting. Eventually the Captains, the only source of food in the city now, make a move to secure power, starting another battle in which even more people die. The end death toll is well above four thousand, mostly working people who had no interest in the conflict ever starting to begin with.
Why do I bring this up? Because Jarlaxle arranged all of it. He purposefully and directly manipulated Greeth and the High Captains into more or less destroying each other so he could put the man left standing in charge as a puppet ruler so he could use Luskan as a free port with which to engage in trade, selling his underdark goods to the surface and getting some surface goods into the Underdark. Almost ever death in the whole of the novel, one of the higher body counts in a Drizzt book, is because of Jarlaxle's greed.
Honestly can't call him good after that. I'd struggle to call him neutral. I'd be very willing to call him evil. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2011 : 23:34:07
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| This is all technically true. However, in the following book, (More spoilers, folks!) Ghost King, he does an about-face and HELPS save many lives of the people in the town near Spirit Soaring (forgot the town name) when it is overrun by zombies from the lake it sits beside. He orders Breagan D'earth to aid the survivors by helping fight the zombies (In secret- he's no fool and knows darn well they would not trust drow help!) and lead them along a safe route through the caverns. He ALSO personally helps Drizzt and Bruenor get to Cadderly. (Yes, he has a personal agenda, but he really does care about Cattie-Brie's welfare in the book.) so He's done enough yo-yo'ing in the books he's appeared in that I'd be more likely to call him CN than out-right evil. He is just too chaotic to settle on being evil.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 02:51:01
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| to be fair, even Chaotic Evil can have exceptions.. if you're basing it on his care for Cattie-Brie and curious interest in Drizzt, he could still bevery Chaotic Evil. he probably just fpcuses more on the Chaos part. XD |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 04:03:56
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| Perhaps, but that would not explain his concern for the people he helped in that book. Granted, Cadderly's kids were among them, and were leading the survivors, but Jarlaxle didn't even know that at first, and still aided them. He had no real interest in the town itself, so why bother if he wasn't concerned? Seems that was all a matter of his general concern for people other than himself and not just for Drizzt and Cat. He has always been fair in his dealings with people- even with his contacts among the Svirfneblin in Blingdenstone in Exile, he kept his word, honored his deals, and never ratted them out. He even payed more than promised for the info. The thing is, even in his earliest appearances, he's never acted "evil" as such- it's not like he starts these things intending to kill people or start wars, after all. He just tweaks an ear here and there, gathers info and pus it to use in his band's interests, and sits back to see what develops. That strikes me as more neutral than evil. He's not TRYING to get anyone killed or cause mass destruction, (That's really counter to his interests, after all- no people = no business) he's just looking for the next big score or challenge. He's a thrill-seeker, if you want to get down to it, which just "screams" CN to me. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 05:12:55
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| definitely agreed. XD as I said before, he just seems to be the guy who likes ****ing around, he probably thinks it's funny to observe what others think of him. in my games I don't bther to stray from the canon stats that say he's Evil, but I personally feel that Chaotic Neutral is a more accurate representation of his Alignment. |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2011 : 19:26:36
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Looking passed the character to the writer, it could either be that Salvatore isn't sure where he wants to go with Jarlaxle, or the higher ups who pay Salvatore to write the books aren't completely sure what they want to do with him.
If memory serves, also, he sent the mercenaries to the town to try and close the rift letting the shadow creatures in. The world being over run by shade monsters is bad for business, after all. And he specifically wanted to rescue Cadderly's kids; granted, he didn't know for sure they were alive, but he figured that since they're Cadderly's kids and therefore likely the recipients of some of the better training one can get, there's decent odds of them having survived.
Also, I've always found his concern for Drizzt and Cattie to be rather creepy, to be honest. Who knows, maybe he has a magic item that lets him know he's a character in a book and wants to show concern about the main character and his girlfriend so the audience doesn't hate him.
Still. Picture the children of Luskan freezing in their homes as snow and ice blow in through the roof of their spell-blasted hovel, the sound of the wind only barely drowning out the growling of their empty stomachs. And remind yourself that it is Jarlaxle's fault. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2011 : 07:00:55
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| I don't necessarily equate "fault" to "evil". Yes, he was responsible for a lot of what happened in Lusken with that big hulla-balloo IN PART. But the blame for the war between the Captains, the Brotherhood Arcane, and The Sea Sprite's crew was not on him alone. He tweaked som ears, yes, and arranged a few (small) events, certainly. But would it have turned out the same if he had done things differently? Would the situation still have blown up if he hadn't gotten involved? Quite likely. Drizzt was already involved, and we all know that where he goes, chaos often follows. (Thus lending credence to the idea that Lolth somehow favors him...) Look at the mess in Longsaddle, and Jarlaxle wasn't even involved in that part of the story! As for his concern for Drizzt and Cattie-Brie, I don't see it as creepy at all. A sense of guilt, (over Zak, and perhaps his earlier actions dealing with Drizzt himself, as well) a desire for real friendship, an admiration for a fellow drow forging his own path, all of this is part of his concern for the pair. Not to mention his respect for a truly superb warrior- let us not forget that drow know how to appreciate someone who is skilled at their role in life, even if only for how they can put it to use. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 00:15:09
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| It was my recollection(which admittedly has often proven faulty on this board) that Jarlaxle was largely responsible for prodding both the Captains and the Brotherhood into making the moves that eventually baited the Sea Sprite and Waterdeep forces into attacking, sparking the conflict. It wasn't shown explicitly, but there was that heavy implication. Granted, the Brotherhood's expansionistic outlook would have likely provoked conflict eventually all on it's own, but what might have happened isn't important. What is important is that Jarlaxle knowingly and intentionally provoked a conflict that cost thousands of lives so he could engage in trade from a favorable bargining position. Moreover, his actions are primarily responsible for Luskan's state a hundred years later; that of a ruined slime pit populated by monsters, escaped criminals, and demon cultists practicing in the open. Luskan could quite easily be mistaken for a layer of the abyss right now because of what Jarlaxle did. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 00:20:24
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| More importantly, Jarlaxle never shows any concern, remorse, or even acknowledgement for the suffering he caused in Luskan. He doesn't seem to own up to it at all, passing the buck off onto the Captains and the Brotherhood when his actions set them against each other. The fact that he has concern for Drizzt and Catti doesn't come close to balancing that scale, in my opinion. Its on the same level of selfishness of Luke forgiving Vader after he turned on the emperor, despite the hundreds of thousands of deaths he was responsible for. Can't base morality around what's centered on the protaganists. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 02:56:26
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If Jarlaxle worshipped any deity as his patron, I would expect it to be Waukeen. He seems most interested in trade, and as for convention, Jarlaxle would seem to have as little regard to pantheon restrictions as Drizzt does. His alignment is tricky, but I really think it's chaotic neutral for many of the reasons others have listed. Furthermore, his chaotic element remains constant. When I read Bob's books, I never know how Jarlaxle will react, which is why I consider him strong on the chaotic scale. In contrast, while he is a very adept killer, so too is Drizzt, and Elminster, and Vangerdahast, Mirt, Storm, the Simbul, Blackstaff, et cetera.
Jarlaxle does not kill randomly, thus the chaotic evil lable doesn't suit him. While his actions may seem good at times, I consider him someone who counts favors given and received, and prevers a zero-sum balance, or one in his favor. I think he may yearn to be good, but that such a path is beyond him. I think he finds Drizzt an enigma, and thus his fascination with him. His fury at Drizzt about being the one who escaped the drow path influences my thoughts on this. It is almost as if he wishes he could be Drizzt, but hasn't any idea as to how that might occur. Jarlaxle is most at odds with Drizzt when Drizzt strays from his path of "goodness" in Jarlaxle's eyes.
My two coppers, and nothing more.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 02:57:54
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Wierd, it turned that into a link...
It's because there's an @ followed immediately by letters and a period -- it's seeing it as an email address.
Interestingly, I've long tried to mail this "smart a**" individual, but I can just never seem to reach him/her.
Sir Sage,
The individual of whom you reference may be mailed c/o Greenwood, Ed.
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Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 08:25:04
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| there is no way that Jarlaxle "yearns to be good"! XD |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Azuth
Senior Scribe
USA
404 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 16:05:52
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| There are many ways, learned scribe. Such is the beauty of life. ;-) |
Azuth, the First Magister
Lord of All Spells
The greatest expression of creativity is through Art.
Offense can never be given, only taken. |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2011 : 16:47:47
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| I've seen a working theory that "good" drow are in fact suffering from a benign brain tumor that alters their behavior. Could be Jarlaxle's tumor is smaller than Drizzt's or Zak's. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 03:25:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Asmodeus
More importantly, Jarlaxle never shows any concern, remorse, or even acknowledgement for the suffering he caused in Luskan. He doesn't seem to own up to it at all, passing the buck off onto the Captains and the Brotherhood when his actions set them against each other. The fact that he has concern for Drizzt and Catti doesn't come close to balancing that scale, in my opinion. Its on the same level of selfishness of Luke forgiving Vader after he turned on the emperor, despite the hundreds of thousands of deaths he was responsible for. Can't base morality around what's centered on the protaganists.
Perhaps, but there's a BIG difference between having remorse for the fates of faceless masses of strangers, and those whom you know personally. Think of it this way, we don't really care much when we hear about or see a major traffic accident, even if it's fatal, unless it turns out to involve someone we knew and cared about. It's the same principle, only on a larger scale. Leaders of nations go to war all the time, without worrying or feeling guilt over the lives lost in those wars.
Jarlaxle is not much different. He does what he thinks will work the most in the favor of his interests and those of his band- whom he is very loyal too- and lets everyone else take care of themselves. Business Darwinism, or survival of the fittest in a socio-economic and political situation. Jarlaxle is a businessman first- that is clear from all the books. He's out for profits- a motivation that is generally neutral in scope. I've never once called him "good", just CN, as everything he does (and he IS very much toward the chaotic end of the scale, as Azuth pointed out) is geared toward what is in the best interests of himself, his band, and his "friends". He's not precisely selfish, just unconcerned with the affairs of those who have no relation to him or his business dealings. It's like a corporate head who runs is company with a heavy hand, without considering how his tactics will affect those not tied to his business, or who are not his clients or customers. (As a RW analogy, BP comes to mind- lots of corporate dealings that seem a bit shady, leading to a big disaster, and not a lot of concern for the results later- just a few vague apologies and some half-hearted attempts to "fix" things.) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36814 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 05:08:32
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| Let's shy away from using real-world examples, please. That can lead into some serious debate that's not really relevant to the discussion. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2011 : 05:21:00
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I don't know; the only thing I read that features him is That Curious Sword, a short story by RAS in Realms of Shadow. And he seems to be neutral there. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 02:57:34
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| actually, Allystra, that kind of motivation and behavior is what I'd consider Evil, not Neutral. self-serving is the blatant description of Neutral Evil. |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2011 : 13:51:03
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Oh no! Not this discussion again 
Jarlaxle is and allways has been evil. If it would suit his needs he wouldn't have a problem with killing 100 babies, that he prefers not to do it if he hasn't has to doesn't change his allignment. |
Edited by - _Jarlaxle_ on 21 Apr 2011 14:49:49 |
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is jarlaxle good or evil?
Topic Locked
