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Feanor
Learned Scribe
100 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jul 2005 : 10:30:58
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quote:
Originally posted by magnakanus
For an intelegent evil character the profits do not have to be immediate. If we look at it objectively, what would Jarlaxle have gained through the betrayal? Not much, a sword of 2 from the Driz and a nice bow from kattie, but what then? Not much.
Having Driz and his friends kinda "owe him one" is worth more than have killed them for the fun of it. To be considered also is the fact that if Driz is out there "doing his stuff" means that the drow need to concentrate some of their resources on him, and less on Jarlaxle. Driz may be good, but he is hunted and reviled and keeps the drow thirst for violance partialy concentrated in another direction. Jarlaxle is one of those problems the drow more than likely consider as "moderately valuable, but to be dealt with at a later time."
Not much to gain ? I'm shocked. Weapons like Taulmaril, Twinkle or Icingdeath are items of legend. Any evil warrior would gladly kill to have such sort of items. And my opinion goes for chaotic neutral. An evil character does not sacrifice his interests or risks his life just to do a good thing. He facilitates Artemis and Drizzt's escape from Menzoberanzan although the risks were high, he saved Regis and Drizzt's life although he had nothing to gain (and he had something to gain if Drizzt had died : he could have kept Guehnywar), he risked his life to destroy Crenshinibon. An evil character does not fit into this picture. |
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Slash Scarsmith
Acolyte
United Kingdom
8 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 23:40:16
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| Here's something to ponder on, despite the fact that he does not hesitate to kill when he needs to, those who he kills are generally drow, who are on the whole evil themselves and how many parties of good characters have any reserves about killing creatures known to be evil such as drow or orcs especially if it's going to make them a profit. I severely doubt that Jarlaxle is good though so I voted for neutral, probably chaotic. |
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Sir Luther Cromwell
Learned Scribe
Canada
158 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 00:39:33
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From the way I see it, depends on the point in time.
When you first read about Jarlaxle in Starless Night, the story begins with a very evil Jarlaxle. He really is in it for himself, and will mercilessly kill anyone for his own profit. However, towards the end of the book, when what's her name (Drow cleric of Lloth present in that book) gives Jarlaxle a good beating over something petty, Jarlaxle seems to have a shift in mentality. When we read this passage, we realize that Jarlaxle is starting to question the typical ways of his people, and you can see how he wishes to break free of this stupid oppression towards male drow. Jarlaxle from there, in my mind, goes CN, since almost all actions that would suggest that he is CN happen after he is beaten. |
"At what temperature does a Goblin boil?"
"Any Rakshasa should eat a healthy diet that is high in wood elf, and low in shield Dwarf. One must always watch those cholesterol levels."
"If a Svirfneblin falls in the underdark, does anybody care?" |
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Gromph Baenre
Acolyte
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 18:48:01
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It's definitely a grey area, and depends on your perceptions of evil. Jarlaxle, I believe, falls into the 'pure neutral' category. He, much like Zaknafein, was trying to make the best of what he had in Menzoberranzan. When you think about it, carving a place of power out and becoming an oppurtunist with a power to rival that of the higher houses is a much better solution than Zaknafein had, which was taking every oppurtunity to kill drow that he could.
I do think Jarlaxle enjoys his work, and I think his manipulations are simply that of one who is trying to survive. |
Give a man a fire, he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life-Terry Pratchett |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 20:58:37
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Spoilers ahead . . . look out.
Our good Sir Luther makes a very good point. I do think that the stats of Jarlaxle back in the Menzoberranzan set in 2e were correct in asserting that he was Neutral Evil. He was selfish, enjoyed luxury, and liked being the wild card in the city, spying, killing, being important, and turning a profit.
I do think that after the destruction of the Crystal Shard, he may be moving more toward Chaotic neutral. He isn't as worried about profit or noteriety, and seems to be curious about life on the surface, and "what happens if we do this." I don't think that he is neccissarily "turning good" so much as he has had a life of intrigue and power, and now I think he is moving into just wanted to be an unconcerned rogue. Still, since he has that tendancy to be on top of every situation, he can't help but use Artemis as a sort of "case study" to see what happens if he advocates this or that to the man.
Don't forget, Artemis still doesn't know that Drizzt is still alive and that Jarlaxle tricked him. From time to time it almost seems like Jarlaxle is intentionally dropping hints to Artimis that Drizzt is still alive, which definately strikes me as a Chaotic neutral guy that likes to mess with other people's head. |
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wiseguysez
Acolyte
Canada
8 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 17:02:25
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| He's totally neutral. He does what he likes and consequences? so what? He does whatever profits him. |
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Beezy
Learned Scribe
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jan 2006 : 20:11:11
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Spoilers ahead . . . look out.
Our good Sir Luther makes a very good point. I do think that the stats of Jarlaxle back in the Menzoberranzan set in 2e were correct in asserting that he was Neutral Evil. He was selfish, enjoyed luxury, and liked being the wild card in the city, spying, killing, being important, and turning a profit.
I do think that after the destruction of the Crystal Shard, he may be moving more toward Chaotic neutral. He isn't as worried about profit or noteriety, and seems to be curious about life on the surface, and "what happens if we do this." I don't think that he is neccissarily "turning good" so much as he has had a life of intrigue and power, and now I think he is moving into just wanted to be an unconcerned rogue. Still, since he has that tendancy to be on top of every situation, he can't help but use Artemis as a sort of "case study" to see what happens if he advocates this or that to the man.
Don't forget, Artemis still doesn't know that Drizzt is still alive and that Jarlaxle tricked him. From time to time it almost seems like Jarlaxle is intentionally dropping hints to Artimis that Drizzt is still alive, which definately strikes me as a Chaotic neutral guy that likes to mess with other people's head.
I was going to say nearly the same thing. I think his more recent actions are more chaotic. If we were true neutral and just wanted profit then why did he not go back to Menzo and take the reins of his mercenaries yet? He made a choice to go off with Artemis instead. As others mention he did save Drizzt. Where as I can't see Jarlaxle just randomly killing people or doign so for pleasure I do not doubt he would do an evil act if he had a reason. I don't know who voted for good but I can't possibly see Jarlaxle as any good alignment. |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jan 2006 : 05:24:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
...if Jarlaxle walked by a Paladin, would the Paladin be able to detect evil? I think the answer is obvious.
SPOILERS
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Considering the events at the end of Promise of the Witch King and the hints at Jarlaxle meeting Gareth Dragonsbane, the above will almost surely be tested within the next few years. Wait for it, folks.  |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 14 Jan 2006 05:25:37 |
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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
Posted - 08 Apr 2006 : 10:00:23
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Jarlaxle is defiantely not considered good. while he is evil, he is most defiantely not chaotic, he is definately not good. He was only chaotic because in menzo, the only way to prosper is if u start acting chaotic too.
While greed is not a symbol of evil (if greed was equal to being evil, almost all waterdhavians and merchants would be considered evil), i think if u offer to pay jarlaxle lots of gold for a murder of an innocent, he would most assurdly do so(if he can't think of a way to cheat the money out of u first)
based on the above info i would say neutral evil |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 12:26:39
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quote:
Originally posted by magnakanus
He is definately Neutral evil and a follower of vhearun. Look at it this way, he looks out for himself mostly. Builds up a goodly ammount of power and money to make sure he is on top, helps people he may need later, and does not adhere to laws NOR act recklessly individualistic. Has to be Neutral Evil.
I think along the same lines of reasoning - NE |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Akukakk
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2006 : 15:18:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
quote:
Originally posted by magnakanus
He is definately Neutral evil and a follower of vhearun. Look at it this way, he looks out for himself mostly. Builds up a goodly ammount of power and money to make sure he is on top, helps people he may need later, and does not adhere to laws NOR act recklessly individualistic. Has to be Neutral Evil.
I think along the same lines of reasoning - NE
ya, i was leaning that way too. he's probably shifted his alignment a couple times tru all the books he's been in. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2006 : 02:22:47
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| He's neutral evil, get over it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 03:35:58
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He is most definatly true Neutral or Chaotic Neutral.
He can't be evil if he was such a good friend of Zakneifein.
And he has done many things that would be consitered "compassionate."
such as letting Drizzit go-free and trying to help and befriend Artemis Entreti(although he woun't admit it) |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 03:48:36
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
He is most definatly true Neutral or Chaotic Neutral.
He can't be evil if he was such a good friend of Zakneifein.
There's no rule saying evil people can't be friends with non-evil people (and Zak himself was chaotic neutral...and not really all that good). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 04:17:51
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quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
He is most definatly true Neutral or Chaotic Neutral.
He can't be evil if he was such a good friend of Zakneifein.
And he has done many things that would be consitered "compassionate."
such as letting Drizzit go-free and trying to help and befriend Artemis Entreti(although he woun't admit it)
The Villian's lorebook explicitly identifies his alignment as nuetral evil, and Cadderly (by implication) verifies that this has not changed. My view of Jarlaxle is that he views reality as being without a moral purpose, and existence is thus a "game" to be played according to whichever "rules" one makes for oneself in order to maximize personal utilty; for Jarlaxle,utility maximization simply includes helping out people he likes when the probable costs do not outwiegh the benifits. He is evil rather than nuetral because a) he cares about himself more than anything else and b)he enjoys evil things (drow politics is entertaining to him). He is certainly not horrifyingly evil (he does not seem to enjoy inflicting unneccesary pain on those who don't deserve it), but this mindset precludes any alignment shift for the foreseeable future (as Cadderly recongnized). |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 04:36:41
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quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
quote:
Originally posted by FridayThe13th
He is most definatly true Neutral or Chaotic Neutral.
He can't be evil if he was such a good friend of Zakneifein.
And he has done many things that would be consitered "compassionate."
such as letting Drizzit go-free and trying to help and befriend Artemis Entreti(although he woun't admit it)
The Villian's lorebook explicitly identifies his alignment as nuetral evil, and Cadderly (by implication) verifies that this has not changed. My view of Jarlaxle is that he views reality as being without a moral purpose, and existence is thus a "game" to be played according to whichever "rules" one makes for oneself in order to maximize personal utilty; for Jarlaxle,utility maximization simply includes helping out people he likes when the probable costs do not outwiegh the benifits. He is evil rather than nuetral because a) he cares about himself more than anything else and b)he enjoys evil things (drow politics is entertaining to him). He is certainly not horrifyingly evil (he does not seem to enjoy inflicting unneccesary pain on those who don't deserve it), but this mindset precludes any alignment shift for the foreseeable future (as Cadderly recongnized).
Oh you know how hypocritical goodly priests can be |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Unen_Stealthfoot
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 09:28:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
quote:
Originally posted by magnakanus
For an intelegent evil character the profits do not have to be immediate. If we look at it objectively, what would Jarlaxle have gained through the betrayal? Not much, a sword of 2 from the Driz and a nice bow from kattie, but what then? Not much.
Having Driz and his friends kinda "owe him one" is worth more than have killed them for the fun of it. To be considered also is the fact that if Driz is out there "doing his stuff" means that the drow need to concentrate some of their resources on him, and less on Jarlaxle. Driz may be good, but he is hunted and reviled and keeps the drow thirst for violance partialy concentrated in another direction. Jarlaxle is one of those problems the drow more than likely consider as "moderately valuable, but to be dealt with at a later time."
Not much to gain ? I'm shocked. Weapons like Taulmaril, Twinkle or Icingdeath are items of legend. Any evil warrior would gladly kill to have such sort of items. And my opinion goes for chaotic neutral. An evil character does not sacrifice his interests or risks his life just to do a good thing. He facilitates Artemis and Drizzt's escape from Menzoberanzan although the risks were high, he saved Regis and Drizzt's life although he had nothing to gain (and he had something to gain if Drizzt had died : he could have kept Guehnywar), he risked his life to destroy Crenshinibon. An evil character does not fit into this picture.
SPOILERS AHEAD
CG for me. I completely agree with what is above. Not only do these things show that Jarlaxle is willing to give up wondrous treasures, but remember, he actually gave the ruby pendant BACK to Drizzt after taking it in the first place. Furthermore, his actions in Promise Of The Witch-King show his shifting of alignment towards good. For example, he continually prevented the wizard and dwarf from killing the half-orc wizard, showing compassion, and he also gifted Artemis Entreri with Idalia's flute (that flute which grants its player with the ability to feel compassion) which has to mean that Jarlaxle wants Artemis to become a better person, making Jarlaxle a better person too. Also, remember, he could have been given a huge reward for Drizzt's head anytime, but actually saved him from death at the hands of Artemis, and tricked Artemis into thinking he was dead, so that Artemis would not continue trying to kill the noble ranger. Also, I have only ever heard of Jarlaxle killing EVIL folk intentionally, never good people. He only steals from the evil and the dead (and the undead). |
"God is dead, I killed him"-Nietsche
"Nietsche is dead, I killed him"-God |
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Genis
Learned Scribe
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 23:40:52
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| im thinking like netrual evil....and getting nicer... |
Unofficial Random Hiatus Taker. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2006 : 01:44:55
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| Jarlaxle is a consummate opportunist. If he does something that seems compassionate, odds are it's because it serves him in some way. Also, being evil doesn't preclude one from performing occasional acts of kindness. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 19 Aug 2006 02:29:53 |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2006 : 02:26:23
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| People need to realize that committing good acts does not make one good if they regularly commit acts of evil. Jarlaxle is no doubt evil, and the fact that people think he is Good (let alone neutral) is shocking to me. |
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Genis
Learned Scribe
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2006 : 02:51:05
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| what evil acts do you know that he willinly commits and or doesnt regret? hes an opputunist yes...but theres been many good oppurunities that he has passed up in acts of kindness....so no i dont think he is evil...i think he was born of an evil race and grew up in a evil world and is making the best of it which includes most of his actions actually being reletivily good and or neutral to say the least |
Unofficial Random Hiatus Taker. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2006 : 03:01:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Genis
what evil acts do you know that he willinly commits and or doesnt regret?
Well remember that the truth is, we don't know that much about Jarlaxle's life to begin with. Also, he has always been identified--alignment-wise--as neutral evil, and I see no real reason to disagree with that assessment. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Genis
Learned Scribe
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2006 : 03:11:53
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| exactly.....something along that line...SCORE she agrees with me...and shes like jesus on here...with her in depth opinions and large words....so SNAP to that other guy who thinks he is complitly evil with no doubt about it...he obviously didnt read the books closly enough |
Unofficial Random Hiatus Taker. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2006 : 03:51:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Genis
what evil acts do you know that he willinly commits...
How about Theft and Murder? So, to use your words...Oh Snap (god, I can't believe I wrote that even though I was only mocking somebody)
And speaking of not reading books carefully, flip to page 37 of the Villains lorebook. It clearly says Neutral Evil. |
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Genis
Learned Scribe
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 01:47:22
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| well off hand i cant even recall a time that he murdered somebody in a situation other then self defense?...and i dont consider pety theft as THAT evil of a thing to do...i mean overall his actions still are suprisenly good for the fact that he is "was" the leader of a mercenaryt band of drow.....and....you smell bad:P lol |
Unofficial Random Hiatus Taker. |
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Genis
Learned Scribe
USA
226 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 01:48:11
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| but yeah i agree with nuetral evil....just not compeltly evil or neutral chaotic or whatever its called |
Unofficial Random Hiatus Taker. |
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VonRaventheDaring
Learned Scribe
USA
197 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 02:15:27
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| I disagree i think Jarlaxle is chaos, i mean he worships the chaotic nature of Lolth if not lolth herself. I think he is chaotic you never know if he will do good or evil, or whatever. |
"Develop the latent abilities within you for that is your power alone. Psionics is the ultimate art of magic and you are its practitioner. Through lifelong dedication, strive to unite your will with your physical form to become one. Only through the unrestrained union of one’s mind and body can the magic of psionics truly be mastered. Throw off the yoke of any who would impose tyranny upon you. Likewise, do not ever force another to submit to your will. Free your mind, free yourself and you have only just begun the path to true psionic mastery. Free others, open their minds to the Invisible Art, and you will show them way to Auppenser."
---Dogma of the Church of Auppenser |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 02:47:26
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He only appreciates chaos for the opportunities it provides someone like himself (an opportunist!). He does not "worship" or have a special love for it in and of itself.
And really, this topic is rather absurd. Jarlaxle is and always has been described as NEUTRAL EVIL. Why is there even a debate about how chaotic he is, let alone whether or not he's good (!)? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 08:30:16
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quote:
Originaly posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
And really, this topic is rather absurd. Jarlaxle is and always has been described as NEUTRAL EVIL. Why is there even a debate about how chaotic he is, let alone whether or not he's good (!)?
I fully agree with you on this.
The small glimpses we see of characters can never fully describe a characters motivations and acts anyway. Neither is the alignment system foolproof. Jarlaxle is stated as Neutral evil and I cant really see what is the problem with this more than with other characters alignments? |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 17:20:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
And really, this topic is rather absurd. Jarlaxle is and always has been described as NEUTRAL EVIL. Why is there even a debate about how chaotic he is, let alone whether or not he's good (!)?
I agree, it's mind boggling. |
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is jarlaxle good or evil?
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