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sabre
Acolyte
Turkey
47 Posts |
 Posted - 25 May 2005 : 14:26:26
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Can you explain the 2nd level cleric spell silence?I need a very clear explanation!What are the save conditions if the silence cast on a point in space,on a creature or object?Does everyone get a saving throw if they enter the area of silence?
What happens if i put it on a point in space?İn this area can a mage able to cast spells if he/she makes the save in the area or he/she doesn't get a saving throw at all?My buddies think that if you cast the spell on a point in space and when a mage enters this area he gets a will saving throw and if the mage makes this save he can cast spells in this area normally.İs this right or wrong?Why is this right or wrong?
Mod edit: changed the title of the scroll. 
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sabre |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 19 Aug 2009 21:07:01
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4695 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 14:41:36
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quote:
Originally posted by sabre
Can you explain the 2nd level cleric spell silence?I need a very clear explanation!What are the save conditions if the silence cast on a point in space,on a creature or object?Does everyone get a saving throw if they enter the area of silence?
When first entering some areas of effect (even by movement or standing in the traget area) a saving throw is made (apparently not Silence). Sucess or failure applies to that spell effect for duration of the spell. You can not enter an area , miss sving throw, step out and reenter in hopes of succeeding at a saving throw the second time.
No, no one that enters an area of effect gets the one time saving throw (because of descpritive text for object removes right of saving throw).
quote:
What happens if i put it on a point in space?İn this area can a mage able to cast spells if he/she makes the save in the area or he/she doesn't get a saving throw at all?My buddies think that if you cast the spell on a point in space and when a mage enters this area he gets a will saving throw and if the mage makes this save he can cast spells in this area normally.İs this right or wrong?Why is this right or wrong?
The mage gets no saving throw,
Edit: I saw the SR but missed the object descriptive text.
I also disagree with the Rules as Written, however that is the current official interpertation.
Enter Silence or have Silence cast near you, there is no saving throw. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 25 May 2005 16:21:50 |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 15:53:01
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| If the silence spell is cast on a creature or an object, the target is entitled to a saving throw and spell resistance to resist the effects. If silence is cast on a point in space, then the spell affects the entire area automatically, without a save or spell resistance (spell resistance does not apply when a character is in the region of an effect that doesn't direct magic against him; silence doesn't use SR any more than an antimagic field would). |
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Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 16:21:15
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I'm a 2nd Ed.er, but from that it seems that if someone casts silence at a person, that person gets a save to see if it **sticks**. If the target succeeds in his/her save, the spell sticks at a random point somewhere immediately around the target, but not to the target him-/her-self.
To my understanding, if the target is within the radius of the spell, be it before or after the casting, he/she is silenced until he/she moves out of that radius, and regardless of the save. The saving throw simply keeps the spell from sticking **to him/her**, and thus from following him/her around. |
"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
Edited by - Beowulf on 25 May 2005 16:32:43 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4695 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 16:33:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
I'm a 2nd Ed.er, but from that it seems that if someone casts silence at a person, that person gets a save to see if it **sticks**. If the target succeeds in his/her save, the spell sticks at a random point somewhere immediately around the target.
Heck lets us go back to 1st. As written the target is object no save or person SR and save. A location/object that does not get a saving throw) the effect remains in place until spell ends, no way to to use sound in such an area. If targeted at a person or magical item, making the saving throw negates the spell effect. It does not stay in place the spell fails.
quote:
To my understanding, if the target is within the radius of the spell, he/she is silenced until he/she moves out of that radius. The saving throw simply keeps the spell from sticking to him/her, and thus from following him/her around.
If the mage is 5' from center of spell it does not target the mage, no saving throw and no way it can sick to the mage. The mage can not cast verbal spells until either getting out of the area of effect on the spell ends.
The only time the mage gets a saving though if it is cast directly at him/her or attended object of the mage. Make saving spell the spell ends, fail saving throw it would appear the zone of silence will move with the mage. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Bendal
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 22:47:59
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If the target is a PC or spellcaster, then they get a saving throw. If they fail the save, then the spell moves with them and they are silenced until it wears off. If they make the save, then it centers right behind them and they are still silenced, but they can move out of the area of effect.
If the silence spell is thrown on an object or a point in space, and the spellcaster is in the radius of effect, then there is no saving throw and they are silenced until they move out of the area of effect. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4695 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 03:42:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Bendal
If the target is a PC or spellcaster, then they get a saving throw. If they fail the save, then the spell moves with them and they are silenced until it wears off. If they make the save, then it centers right behind them and they are still silenced, but they can move out of the area of effect. {/quote]
As written per SRD 3.5
"Saving Throw: Will negates; see text or none (object)
Spell Resistance: Yes; see text or no (object)
Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks. "
"Negates
The spell has no effect on a subject that makes a successful saving throw. "
The spell can not center right behind them, because they will be effected even though they made their save until moving out of the area of effect. At least this is how I read the text. There is no indication in the text that a zone of silence targeted on an individual effects others in area of effect. IAE a mind effecting area effect not getting a saving though does not make sense, so interpertations of how the bloody spell works makes no sense. Oh the I should add the SRD does not always keep up with corrections, I reserve the right to be in error in quoting rules and my understanding of them.
[quote]
If the silence spell is thrown on an object or a point in space, and the spellcaster is in the radius of effect, then there is no saving throw and they are silenced until they move out of the area of effect.
This I agree is RAW |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 26 May 2005 : 12:54:57
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Silence spell is even more broken than it seems if your players are munchkins.
If a caster with the silence spell, even a 3rd level cleric, readies his action to cast silence when an enemy caster starts casting than they can counter spell any spell with a verbal component without fail. All they have to do is cast it at a point in space just in front of the caster as soon as he starts casting and they lose the spell. Even a 20th level caster using a 9th level spell can be countered by a 3rd level cleric.
It's ridiculous. I once had a player who used this tactic but we have since house ruled against it being used in this way. We all talked as a group as to whether they want it outlawed or if they want every NPC cleric doing it to them. We decided as a group that it wasn't the spells intended use and made it illegal.
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As for this...
quote:
If the target is a PC or spellcaster, then they get a saving throw. If they fail the save, then the spell moves with them and they are silenced until it wears off. If they make the save, then it centers right behind them and they are still silenced, but they can move out of the area of effect.
If I understand the spell properly, and I believe I do...
If the caster chooses to target a person rather than a point in space or an object and the victim makes their save than the spell is wasted, it does not move to a point in space behind them.
So it is a chance the caster takes. If you cast it on an object or a point in space then enemies can move out of the area of effect, but the effecxt is there for the duration.
If you choose to target a person, the spell stays on that person for the duration of the spell, they can not flee the effect, but if they make their save than you just wasted a spell. |
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Bendal
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 00:45:12
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| Casting silence directly on a target spellcaster is a risky tactic. If he fails (and it's likely he won't) his saving throw, then it sticks to him. According to the rules, though (which I tried to go from memory on), if he makes the save the spell just disappears. A tactic that was used by PC's in one of my older campaigns was to cast it on a rock and throw it into the midst of the enemy party. In this way the spell was in play and affected all of them until they moved out of the area of effect. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4695 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 00:54:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Bendal
Casting silence directly on a target spellcaster is a risky tactic. If he fails (and it's likely he won't) his saving throw, then it sticks to him. According to the rules, though (which I tried to go from memory on), if he makes the save the spell just disappears. A tactic that was used by PC's in one of my older campaigns was to cast it on a rock and throw it into the midst of the enemy party. In this way the spell was in play and affected all of them until they moved out of the area of effect.
Looking at 2nd, the spell was Alteration and indeed being targeted and making the saving throw "the spell effect is centered about 1 foot behind the position of the subject creature at the instant of casting" of course MR might have taken down the spell. In general unless edition is specified it is better to use current Edition, which I had also messed up due to poor reading and perhaps poor written description of the spell.
Under the 3.x versions I still believe there shouold be a saving throw the first time a mind effecting spell is encountered. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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costaran
Acolyte
Turkey
17 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 01:07:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
Silence spell is even more broken than it seems if your players are munchkins.
If a caster with the silence spell, even a 3rd level cleric, readies his action to cast silence when an enemy caster starts casting than they can counter spell any spell with a verbal component without fail. All they have to do is cast it at a point in space just in front of the caster as soon as he starts casting and they lose the spell. Even a 20th level caster using a 9th level spell can be countered by a 3rd level cleric.
It's ridiculous. I once had a player who used this tactic but we have since house ruled against it being used in this way. We all talked as a group as to whether they want it outlawed or if they want every NPC cleric doing it to them. We decided as a group that it wasn't the spells intended use and made it illegal.
Silence can counter spells that have "only" verbal component. So it is not as powerful as it seems. |
"From death comes life, and there is always another morning to turn a setback into a success." - The Morninglord |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 01:21:54
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quote:
Originally posted by costaran
Silence can counter spells that have "only" verbal component. So it is not as powerful as it seems.
Why would it not counter a spell that has verbal and other components? If you take away the ability to utter the verbal component wouldn't that make the spell fail even if they have the others?
It's similar to taking away the material component of a spell and hoping that it still works.
Does it say anywhere in the book that it would only counter spells with "verbal only"? I don't believe it does. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 01:39:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
quote:
Originally posted by costaran
Silence can counter spells that have "only" verbal component. So it is not as powerful as it seems.
Why would it not counter a spell that has verbal and other components? If you take away the ability to utter the verbal component wouldn't that make the spell fail even if they have the others?
It's similar to taking away the material component of a spell and hoping that it still works.
Does it say anywhere in the book that it would only counter spells with "verbal only"? I don't believe it does.
From the SRD (bold-facing is mine):
quote:
Upon the casting of this spell, complete silence prevails in the affected area. All sound is stopped: Conversation is impossible, spells with verbal components cannot be cast, and no noise whatsoever issues from, enters, or passes through the area. The spell can be cast on a point in space, but the effect is stationary unless cast on a mobile object. The spell can be centered on a creature, and the effect then radiates from the creature and moves as it moves. An unwilling creature can attempt a Will save to negate the spell and can use spell resistance, if any. Items in a creature’s possession or magic items that emit sound receive the benefits of saves and spell resistance, but unattended objects and points in space do not. This spell provides a defense against sonic or language-based attacks.
That does not say "verbal only", it says spells that have a verbal component. Thus, any spell that has a verbal component -- regardless of whether or not there are other components -- is nixed by silence. |
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costaran
Acolyte
Turkey
17 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 17:41:18
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When you ready an action, you choose what action to prepare. But if you choose to cast a spell against someone, who just started casting is counterspelling.
Explanation of silence spell does not directly say that you can counterspell spells that "only" have verbal components. But look at the examples:
Command, Harpys captivating voice, Horn of blasting
So I think it can and should be used to only counterspell spells that have only verbal component, or sonic attacks. |
"From death comes life, and there is always another morning to turn a setback into a success." - The Morninglord |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2005 : 19:48:30
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quote:
Originally posted by costaran
When you ready an action, you choose what action to prepare. But if you choose to cast a spell against someone, who just started casting is counterspelling.
Explanation of silence spell does not directly say that you can counterspell spells that "only" have verbal components. But look at the examples:
Command, Harpys captivating voice, Horn of blasting
So I think it can and should be used to only counterspell spells that have only verbal component, or sonic attacks.
You cite spells and effect that rely on producing sound to work -- and sound cannot exist inside the radius of a silence spell.
If you cannot hear the command, you cannot be affected by it. Ditto for the voice of a harpy, and the horn of blasting's sonic effects cannot penetrate the silenced area.
None of those are the same as casting a spell -- those are all magical results.
If the spell was intended to block the casting of spells that only had a verbal component, it would have stated this. The fact that this is not stated means that all spells with verbal components are affected, not just verbal only spells. |
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malier
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2009 : 13:37:28
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Hello
I was wondering how everybody handles this spell in game play. I have seen it handled many different ways. I am leaning towards treating it like an area of effect spell. If npc's, or pc's are in the area -they should get a saving throw. I am wondering if the counter spell technique mentioned above would really work, any how do other DM's handle it?
3.5 edition |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2009 : 15:49:09
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Its a viable tactic that shouldn't be nixed by DM's. The Silent Spell feat is there for a reason, this tactic is the main reason the feat is so important.
It requires a saving throw only if cast on a person or magic item at the risk of losing the entire effect if the save is made. Casting it on a square of ground makes it impossible to fail but it will be stationary and easily avoided with a single move action.
One tactic I usually use it cast it on the party fighter, who can voluntary fail the saving throw and start dogging all enemy wizards he can reach in its radius of 15 ft. |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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malier
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2009 : 19:47:17
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Thanks Bladewind
anybody else have a take on it? |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2009 : 20:09:49
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| Interesting discussion. This is a good case for putting the relevant edition in the subject title. Perhaps for future seekers, the edition should be added. |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2009 : 21:07:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
Interesting discussion. This is a good case for putting the relevant edition in the subject title. Perhaps for future seekers, the edition should be added.
Good point. Done. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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malier
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 13:09:34
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| any others ? |
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gwalchavad
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 14:23:24
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ok, one logic question, and then my opinion on the topic.
caster one, I am holding action to cast silence near enemy caster if she starts casting
caster two, starts casting fireball
caster one upon seeing, hearing, SC roll starts casting silence.
question, as this is not actually a counterspell attempt, both are standard actions to cast, wouldn't the fire ball go off imediately before the effect of the silence?
anyway, the reason silence AOE doesn't get a save is that all you have to do is move out of it, SC check to know the spell. move thirty feet (base move) and still get of spell action this round. this is a very good tactic in tight spaces, but loses its effectiveness as combat areas grow, and clerics in their wisdom would know how to choose their battles time and location. just my two cents.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 14:49:15
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quote:
Originally posted by gwalchavad
ok, one logic question, and then my opinion on the topic.
caster one, I am holding action to cast silence near enemy caster if she starts casting
caster two, starts casting fireball
caster one upon seeing, hearing, SC roll starts casting silence.
question, as this is not actually a counterspell attempt, both are standard actions to cast, wouldn't the fire ball go off imediately before the effect of the silence?
I'm not up on the initiative rules for 3.x... I'd say it depends on who gets to go first, initiative-wise. Whichever caster completes their spell first, wins.
If caster one can get his/her silence spell out before caster two reaches the end of the spellcasting for the fireball, then silence falls about number one, cutting her off -- and without being able to complete the verbal portion of the spell, it's not cast. If caster two can get her spell flung before the silence descends, then she's golden for that round.
If you really want to have fun with it, you could have both get done at roughly the same time -- the silence falls before two can get the last words of the spell out, resulting in a wild surge and/or an uncontrolled (randomly directly and randomly rolled for; it might wind up being weaker or stronger) burst of flame.  |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 21 Aug 2009 14:51:17 |
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gwalchavad
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 15:48:53
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well my logic would be that the person holding action to cast silence would have to have some tangible point of reference to make the judgement that the fireball was being cast, so fractions of a second later he would start casting only to miss the end of casting by fractions of a second.
I really enjoy your evilness sometimes wooly. wild magic surge ftw. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 16:05:11
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quote:
Originally posted by gwalchavad
well my logic would be that the person holding action to cast silence would have to have some tangible point of reference to make the judgement that the fireball was being cast, so fractions of a second later he would start casting only to miss the end of casting by fractions of a second.
It would depend on the casting time of the spells, thinks I. Keep in mind, I'm not up on 3.x initiative and thus I'm falling back on 2E thinking here... But depending on initiative and casting time, at least in 2E it would be possible for the guy who started spellcasting last to still get their spell off first. That's how I'm looking at it.
quote:
Originally posted by gwalchavad
I really enjoy your evilness sometimes wooly. wild magic surge ftw.
I do so enjoy my moments of evil. 
And wild magic was one of my favorite things from 2E. I was never happy with any of the 3E attempts at a wild mage, because none of them quite captured the chaotic fun of the Tome of Magic class. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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gwalchavad
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 16:11:56
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| yeah in 3.x they are both 'standard' actions, and thus exactly the same amount of time. I do miss my old d10 init. and nothing is better than watching PC mage, I cast fireball at the orc horde, dm, roll d%, well its an AOE but its a cluster of feathers. PC, WTF!!! dm, ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!! |
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malier
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 16:24:00
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could a low level start his cast of silence and hold his action until he hears/detects another spell caster casting his spell and finish his before the other one? just thinking that the low level would already be half way through his spell and would finish faster.
if this is true--low level casters could really hinder higher level casters. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 16:49:21
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| Not unless the silence took a full-round action or one round to cast, no. |
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gwalchavad
Acolyte
USA
31 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 16:53:47
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that would be a houserule if it would be aloud, and the hampering would only be for one round unless you risked the targeted cast which is very likely to fail due to level dicrepancies between casters. even so, a better technique as was mentioned earlier, cast it on a party member that, and this is important, doesn't need any sound, and have them play tag with enemy casters.
lastly holding your action resets your init in 3.x and would only allow a 'surprise' silence once every other round if you are using held actions to do this, and that only lasts as long as you have 2nd level spells memorized as silence, likely not more than one or two anyway... |
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Wenin
Senior Scribe
585 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 19:48:40
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Readied actions, interrupt upon their trigger. The person readying a silence spell if a caster begins to cast, would be able to complete their spell before the caster does.
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Session Reports posted at RPG Geek.
Stem the Tide Takes place in Mistledale.
Dark Curtains - Takes place in the Savage North, starting in Nesmé. I wrapped my campaign into the Hoard of the Dragon Queen, but it takes place in 1372 DR. |
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malier
Acolyte
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 20:01:46
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so lets put this into game play sorta.
two casters A and B bump into each other on a road. A wins initiative and holds his silence spell, B starts to cast a fireball, now A gets to finish his spell of silence and interrupt the casting of B and the fireball ?
If given all that is true.....does A still have the next action since he won initiative?
sorry if misspelled--thumb typing from pda.
thanks |
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Topic |
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Discussion about 3.x Silence
