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Arianthus Deszault
Acolyte
15 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 19:04:23
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Back to the war, I would have to say that the Jordaini could be used effectively against Thay. They are trained to kill mages after all, and their natural magical "null-ness" makes them perfect for that.
Halruaa also has been through many wars, and is raided almost constantly by the Dambraii. This, along with the other attempted invasions of the land have made the people of Halruaa pretty war-ready. I would have to count this in Halruaa's favor too, as the common troops of Thay tend to be mindless and thus, do not learn/adapt on their own.
Finally, they do use the airships during times of war. They are manned by wizards who can throw spells down from a highly defendable and mobile platform. As the Haunted Lands trilogy shows, air superiority can go a long way to controlling the entire battlefield. This one is closer to a stalemate, but I believe with prior knowledge of their foe, the Halruaan's could prepare properly and easily dominate in the air. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 19:58:39
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There is no 'set' future - what a diviner/seer/oracle does is see possible future events.
Events which can be altered drastically.
Given the fact we know who and what was involved that precipitated the Events - the Lady of Secrets - and that she had an alternate Roll of Years, its fairly obvious to me that that was a path of prophesy obscured from most (non-shadow?) Diviners.
There are several (non-FR) storylines that deal with prophesy, and one of the best explanations is in the Sword of Truth novels, believe it or not. Future events grow like a tree, with the present being 'the roots'. At first it proceeds in a fairly straight path, but then it begins to diverge into alternate branches, and then sub-branches, and then sub-sub branches, ad-infinitum.
The further you travel 'upward' from the roots, the less likely the path you are viewing is the one your world will be on. Events that will happen fairly soon (within a week or so) are the most rock-solid, and will likely occur.
I'll note that Marvel Comics also takes this route with it's 'alternate Earths' (DC not so much) - the Council of Cross-Time Kangs is the prime example of how their cosmology and time works.
What Shar had was a piece of 'dark prophesy', fortelling of a point in time where she could diverge the timeline down a certain path that was harmonious with her own plans. The events were keyed to the ToT (ergo, the ToT was but a part of a larger RSE), and the rise of Cyric. I personally think she was responsible somehow for goading the Dark Three into stealing the Tablets of Fate (note the name, BTW), putting into motion a chain-reaction that would cause her Dark Prophesies to become the dominant branch.
All one need do to stop the Spellplague is go back in time and murder Cyric when he was just a baby. One must wonder, though, just what kind of Karma that would generate.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Nov 2010 19:59:53 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 21:36:16
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Your argument has a single (rather serious) flaw, Markus.
Yaphyll was able to accurately divine this future, while Zalathorm was not. |
[/Ayrik] |
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_Jarlaxle_
Senior Scribe
Germany
584 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 21:52:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Arianthus Deszault
Finally, they do use the airships during times of war. They are manned by wizards who can throw spells down from a highly defendable and mobile platform.
Shining South says they usually don't use them this way because they are to fragile. Where does it say otherwise? |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 01:16:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Your argument has a single (rather serious) flaw, Markus.
Yaphyll was able to accurately divine this future, while Zalathorm was not.
I was going to say the same thing.
To add to Arik's point, it's important to note, MT, that when divining it's always a 'given' to see different possible futures. That's why the diviner's primal job is to determine that which is closest to accurate, if not the accurate future itself.
I have one more theory on Zalathorn's failure to foresee the SP: SHAR. Again. Almost all of the Halruaans are worshipers of Mystra, automatically making them Shar's enemies. Shar had long planned to make Shade her agents to spread havoc---and in the long run, oblivion/nothingness--- in the Realms. Shar must have foreseen, or just believed, that being both Netherese, the two nations might some day clash. She couldn't lose Shade, nor even afford to see them considerably enervated. Hence, she misdirected Zalathorn's divination.
One might say that Shar need not destroy Halruaa. She could have converted them all to her faith, in the same way she did the Royal family of Shade, and in the end the entire city itself. But I guess she didn't have enough time for Halruaan's supposed gradual conversion, which could take decades or centuries. Or maybe she no longer possessed the patience for such a boring undertaking. Or perhaps she deemed Shade enough to carry out her plans. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 01:34:41
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It's equally likely that Mystra cannibalized Halruaa, perhaps sucking the reservoir dry in one (magically rich) region to help mitigate the damage inflicted throughout the rest of Faerûn.
Your former argument about diviners suggests that Zalathorm's crew would've been able to (indirectly) perceive any interference or obscurement by Shar, dennis. Perhaps not divine the exact nature of their impending disaster, but certainly understand the "boundaries" which surround it (and ask themselves, "gee, how come everything beyond the mountains is just a blurry black smear?"). lol, sorry, I haven't read the novels yet, I shouldn't comment. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 17:28:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Arianthus Deszault
Back to the war, I would have to say that the Jordaini could be used effectively against Thay. They are trained to kill mages after all, and their natural magical "null-ness" makes them perfect for that.
Halruaa also has been through many wars, and is raided almost constantly by the Dambraii. This, along with the other attempted invasions of the land have made the people of Halruaa pretty war-ready. I would have to count this in Halruaa's favor too, as the common troops of Thay tend to be mindless and thus, do not learn/adapt on their own.
Finally, they do use the airships during times of war. They are manned by wizards who can throw spells down from a highly defendable and mobile platform. As the Haunted Lands trilogy shows, air superiority can go a long way to controlling the entire battlefield. This one is closer to a stalemate, but I believe with prior knowledge of their foe, the Halruaan's could prepare properly and easily dominate in the air.
This all assumes that if Halruaa invaded Thay, that Thay would attempt a toe-to-toe battle. I don't see Thay as being that cohesive, and I think most would agree with that statement. There may be some field battles, but the majority would be "squad" type hits. Thay would be one country that would quickly fall to guerrilla type warfare if invaded just for the simple fact of the matter that they aren't that centralized. Not only that, Thay would be a country that WOULD target non-combatants and support personnel, even loved ones back in Halruaa. They would pull what most armies would consider to be dirty tricks, and they'd feel a strong sense of satisfaction in doing it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 25 Nov 2010 : 17:40:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Arianthus Deszault
Back to the war, I would have to say that the Jordaini could be used effectively against Thay. They are trained to kill mages after all, and their natural magical "null-ness" makes them perfect for that.
Halruaa also has been through many wars, and is raided almost constantly by the Dambraii. This, along with the other attempted invasions of the land have made the people of Halruaa pretty war-ready. I would have to count this in Halruaa's favor too, as the common troops of Thay tend to be mindless and thus, do not learn/adapt on their own.
Finally, they do use the airships during times of war. They are manned by wizards who can throw spells down from a highly defendable and mobile platform. As the Haunted Lands trilogy shows, air superiority can go a long way to controlling the entire battlefield. This one is closer to a stalemate, but I believe with prior knowledge of their foe, the Halruaan's could prepare properly and easily dominate in the air.
Actually, I'm rereading much of what you said. The problem I see in this argument is this. You're punditing if Thay assaulted Halruaa. I'm punditing if Halruaa assaulted Thay.
I can't see Thay attempting an assault of Halruaa... ever. Its too far away, its well defended, and its full of wizards. Now, would they attack Halruaa? Hell yes, all the freaking time, but more against individuals. They wouldn't do it en masse in an attempt to weaken the governement. They'd target weak points which might be ripe for the taking. Consider them pirates of the weave, and so long as Halruaa exists churning out magic and magic items, there's always something to plunder.
Can I see Halruaa attempting an assault of Thay.... now this, given certain situations, might happen. Say Mystra calls for it (which isn't going to happen, but some of her priests may interpret it as such). Say some fool of a red wizard gets greedy and kills the wrong family in stealing some magic item (or steals an item that unbeknownst to him is vital to Halruaa's security). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 01:52:43
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
I can't see Thay attempting an assault of Halruaa... ever. Its too far away, its well defended, and its full of wizards.
As I repeatedly said, in the realm of Fantasy, almost everything is possible. To quote myself:
quote:
My guesses as to the reason Halruaa would initiate a war against Thay are just that – guesses. My most viable one, I think, is this:
King Zalathorn, together with a circle of the nation's most powerful diviners, made it an annual routine to divine the most terrible inside or outside threat to Halruaa. In one of their rituals – at the cost of the lives of two in the circle – they learned of Szass Tam's plan to destroy Toril, ascend to godhood, and remake the world. Also, they found out that Thay's neighbors and Faerun's most powerful realms – Rashemen, Aglarond, Waterdeep, Cormyr, and even Shade and Sembia – responded to the threat too late.
Knowing that the zulkirs would never approve of Tam's selfish scheme, he dispatched agents to inform them of the lich's plan. Szass Tam, though surprised that Halruaa managed to take a glimpse of his grand ambition, took the 'rumor' casually, telling his fellow zulkirs, “Why would I help build Thay into the unshakable power it is today, only to destroy it in the end? Some or maybe all of you think of me as mad, but I am not that mad. I value Thay like all of you do.” The other zulkirs, though not so convinced by the Zulkir of Necromancy, but thinking that to raise the Dread Rings was sheer madness, believed the king's news to be a scheme to bring further division among the zulkirs, and consequently topple Thay's government.
Accepting the futility of trying to convince Thay's prime rulers, he then personally sought and tried to convince the leaders of the aforementioned nations, and asked them to perform their own divination to see for themselves. But strangely, none of them saw what he had seen. Upon third attempt, they were convinced that the king's divination simply went awry, or that the zulkirs simply wanted him to see what he had – for reasons only the zulkirs knew.
King Zalathorn, for the first time, doubted himself, thinking that the ritual might have really gone ballistic. So he summoned another circle of diviners – and this time, with a score of abjurer archmages to protect them. The result was the same – Tam's ascension – except that no lives were lost in the casting, thanks to the abjurers.
Convinced, he DECLARED war against Thay. Considering they're thousands of miles away from their enemy, he commanded his subjects to raise huge teleportation circles that would shift a thousand people per activation, and determine strategic locations where they could teleport to without inviting the zulkirs' swift retaliation.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 01:59:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
It's equally likely that Mystra cannibalized Halruaa, perhaps sucking the reservoir dry in one (magically rich) region to help mitigate the damage inflicted throughout the rest of Faerûn.
Your former argument about diviners suggests that Zalathorm's crew would've been able to (indirectly) perceive any interference or obscurement by Shar, dennis. Perhaps not divine the exact nature of their impending disaster, but certainly understand the "boundaries" which surround it (and ask themselves, "gee, how come everything beyond the mountains is just a blurry black smear?"). lol, sorry, I haven't read the novels yet, I shouldn't comment.
Heh, no diviner, no matter how powerful, would ever be able to see through Shar's direct manipulation. Besides, she need not obscure his divination. She might have simply shown him a clear future event (not the SP, of course) and made him believe its veracity. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 02:06:31
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Entirely true. Divine ranks always trump mortal ambitions. False promises, lies, deception, and forgetfulness just happen to be Shar's province.
Still, we are talking about Halruaa, a nation of semi-Netheril wizardly competence ... and yappy Yapyll (the lowest level and weakest of the Zulkirs, btw) still saw what was coming. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 02:49:42
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| Well, maybe Shar was busy somewhere else when Yaphyll was divining the SP. Or perhaps Shar simply allowed it because she has no problem with Thay at all. Heh, there are even Sharans in the nation. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 03:39:51
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Well, maybe Shar was busy somewhere else when Yaphyll was divining the SP. Or perhaps Shar simply allowed it because she has no problem with Thay at all. Heh, there are even Sharans in the nation.
There were shadow weave users in Halruaa, too. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 03:45:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Well, maybe Shar was busy somewhere else when Yaphyll was divining the SP. Or perhaps Shar simply allowed it because she has no problem with Thay at all. Heh, there are even Sharans in the nation.
There were shadow weave users in Halruaa, too.
 I wasn't aware of that. I couldn't recall it mentioned in C&K trilogy. Regardless, Shar can sacrifice a few servants to attain her twisted goals. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 04:34:57
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Well, maybe Shar was busy somewhere else when Yaphyll was divining the SP. Or perhaps Shar simply allowed it because she has no problem with Thay at all. Heh, there are even Sharans in the nation.
There were shadow weave users in Halruaa, too.
I wasn't aware of that. I couldn't recall it mentioned in C&K trilogy. Regardless, Shar can sacrifice a few servants to attain her twisted goals.
There was one in one of the Realms of anthologies. I don't recall which one, though... |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 04:48:38
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| Hmmm, I buy anthologies, but I don't read all the stories in them. I choose only those written by my favorite authors and/or those featuring my favorite characters. Only Realms of Shadow I read from cover to cover. If the story you're referring to is in that anthology, I can't recall any mention of it at all. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Arianthus Deszault
Acolyte
15 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2010 : 16:54:36
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
Shining South says they usually don't use them this way because they are to fragile. Where does it say otherwise?
I don't remember the nation they were fighting against, but I believe it was in the Talath Pass around 1260DR. They fought against the invader using both conventional troops and airships manned by wizards. I am at work and can't check which book it is in, but I will try to find the source when I can! |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 19:50:50
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We'll wait till 5E. Who knows, they might resurrect Halruaa from the ashes?! And so shall we see this possible battle coming...
When I'm torn between favorites [yes, I like both Halruaa and Thay], I usually just leave to the author the task of determining the winner. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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swifty
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
517 Posts |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 22:52:57
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quote:
Originally posted by ArcticKnight
IMHO, its a case where Thay would be defeated because while Halruaan Wizards could work together, Thays Wizards would be scheming against each other , WHILE trying to battle the Halruaans.
Also, Halruaa IS magic, almost everyone there can use it, somewhere i read that the higher level mages of Halruaa are at par with the likes of Elminster and all the other Archmages of the world, while only a FEW Red Wizards are at that Status
Halruaa over Thay in 2 Rounds....
that would be the 2e or 3e frcs.i somehow think they wish they hadnt written that.the insinuation there was a load of wizards in the south who could kick elminsters butt wouldnt go down too well now. |
go back to sleep america.everything is under control.heres american gladiators.watch this.shuttup. BILL HICKS. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 04:30:53
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One very important factor that most scribes overlookebed is the battleground. Where shall the battle be waged? Who will attack whom? I say it's important because half of the time, the invaded territory would prevail, especially when its nigh always prepared for all manner of invasions. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 06:09:37
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Defender's advantage is not a global military axiom.
I think it's difficult to say the defender has real advantage in a battle of magic. The range, scope, and magnitude of the weaponry means the battlefield itself quite often gets destroyed - magic (in warfare) is a weapon of mass destruction. If this is so, then the attacker has the battlefield advantage because the defender's territory and resources could be damaged or destroyed whenever the conflict is brought to them. Note that we use long-range missiles to carry nuclear warheads to the enemy's territory instead of simply detonating these warheads near our territory when the enemy approaches.
I'm assuming, too, that such a war would essentially focus on extermination, or maybe dominance. A type of war wherein capturing the enemy's territory and possessions intact would be a lesser objective to denying the enemy ability to use these resources against you; and hardly a concern at all in view of the primary objective of simply neutralizing or destroying the enemy as quickly and efficiently as possible, whatever costs and sacrifices are necessary, before he is able to do the same to you. If flaming meteors, volcanoes, earthquakes, hurricanes, poisoned air and water, or legions of fiends are the fastest way to kill lots of those enemy mages before they hit you with the same, then just get it done and worry about the fallout later. |
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Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Oct 2011 06:22:24 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 06:23:41
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While the defender's advantage does not necessarily guarantee victory, it still helps a lot. The siege at Selgaunt comes to mind. Despite the formidable fire elementals of their foes and greater number, they prevailed because the Shadovar were very much prepared to counter their attacks and slaughter them all. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 07:07:38
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I admit that mythallars can present some interesting strategic problems. They can power quasimagical items within a radius of about a mile; access to such items means cheap and easy mass-produced magic handed out to every defender, even to those unable to normally use magic. Yet, also within this radius is the mythallar itself and a populated floating city stronghold, an impressive platform which is nearly unstoppable and nearly unassailable, yet far too precious to risk losing ... given the choice, would the Shadovar prefer to fight within the awesome field of their mythallars or keep the battle as distant as possible? So far they've waged their battles far away from their mythallars, they've even prudently moved their floating cities around to evade attack; this suggests to me that they don't have a large quasimagical arsenal stockpile. The Princes Shade actually seem decidedly timid, worried, even fearful about exposing their precious irreplaceable mythallars to any sort of risk (and themselves to Telamont's wrath), although it is evident they have some capacity to repair damaged mythallars and reactivate inert ones.
Incidentally, I calculate that three mythallars are still unaccounted for. Two could be entirely undamaged and functional, although not located in the Realms and unknown whether or not they went dormant after 1E Mystra's ascension. The third, if it exists, would be in Larloch's possession, taken from his enclave of Jiksidur. There's also always the chance that another mythallar could be found, literally hundreds of them might be sufficiently intact to still service the Shadovar, even if only partially functional.
Although, to my knowledge, Thay and Halruaa didn't and don't have any active mythallars nor much access to quasimagical items, I imagine they might've easily had other magical constructs with similar strategic considerations. They might even have mythals, which are roughly the same thing in military terms, except for being fixed placement engines with comparatively larger (and possibly more powerful) zones of magical influence.
I'll admit I don't know too much about Halruaa, but (pre-Spellplague) Thay certainly had great access to lower-planar and elemental gates, presumably a great number of lower-planar and elemental allies/servants, and countless numbers of fiends of every description (including many exotic and unique varieties, even a few "approaching the gods in power"). I would personally consider all the unique and secretive Red Magic spells and items invented, stolen, and hoarded over the centuries to be more than a match against the silly cantras cast by every baker, stableboy, and scullery maid in Halruaa. What's an airship captained by a skymage compared to a flight of cornugons and pit fiends led by an artifact-wielding Red Wizard, his bodyguards, apprentices, fire elementals, and horde of cannon-fodder lackeys or undead minions? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 09 Oct 2011 07:34:18 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 07:33:39
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It depends on what kind of battle. If they are to "clear" some villages sparsely populated by farmers and few retired soldiers, then they wouldn't need an entire city to carry out that job. A dozen veserab riders would suffice. But to defend an allied city or attack a hostile one, they would indeed need Sakkors's, or even Shade's mythallar. In their defense of Selgaunt, it wasn't clear though how useful the mythallar was to the Shadovar troops, except that time when Rivalen needed it to shoo a green dragon. The troops' darkswords looked more than enough to slaughter their enemies. But of course, one may argue that the power said swords might have been augmented by Sakkors's mythallar.
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Ed said, in answer to my question related to the OP, that Halruaans hoarded a lot of powerful artifacts. The bakers, stableboys, and maids in Halruaa might be puny in the eyes of the haughty Red Wizards, but if they are armed with artifacts (which function with mere trigger words) made by their realm's archmages, I doubt they should be treated as inconsequential irritants. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 08:41:27
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The Red Wizards brazenly assert their identity and power, they burn their path through life by dominating their inferiors, they enjoy great wealth and exotic decadence, they constantly push the frontiers of magic and technology forward and possess esoteric knowledge and mastery unknown to the rest of the world. They're also an ambitious, paranoid, scheming, plotting, treacherous lot; constantly grasping and striving to promote themselves, manipulating information, politics, spies, and assassins, and they survive only when constantly countering attacks by their peers and underlings. Their enemies (basically everybody, but most especially foreign wizards, particularly the magically proficient Rashemi Witches and Mulhorandi Elementalists) have attempted to exterminate the Red Wizards many times over many centuries, and yet still they manage to survive, prosper, grow in power, and expand their borders. They constantly hunt for unique magics all across Faerûn, taking what they want and slaying any wizards or liches who choose to obstruct them.
I'm under the impression that Red Wizards are collectively too busy undermining each other to be a unified threat, outside of truly exceptional (and probably temporary or conditional) circumstances ... yet they are individually the most cunning, dangerous, ruthless, and powerful magical opponents one could possibly encounter. Interestingly, many Red Magic spells are cooperative in nature; they allow one Red Wizard to channel the combined magical potency his allies, so I surmise that my above observations are perhaps only the simplified extremes and Red Wizards do work in complex and cooperative groups from time to time.
Compare this to Halruaa. Did Halruaa maintain any sort of tradition of elite battlemages? Any sort of magical champions, defenders, guardians, warriors, assassins? Does Halruaa have a long and bloody history of magical warfare, a magical nemesis, a fanatical mission of magical conquest or superiority? If not, then I seriously doubt Halruaan magic (as sophisticated as it is) could successfully confront a group like the Red Wizards who have mastered such conflicts.
I understand that Halruaan society is more magically capable in general terms, probably even superior overall (since Thay is a static magocracy populated by few Red Wizards and masses of oppressed mundanes), yet I think any substantial conflict between Halruaa and Thay wouldn't be decided by the bakers as much as by the epic mages. I'm not dismissing the population as being inconsequential irritants, not when events take place on national and cultural scales ... but I am dismissing them as inconsequential when facing against a proper wizard, let alone a Red one. See how easily Szass and the Zulkirs manipulate mobs and crowds whenever they choose to do so.
Insofar as magical items ... well, Halruaa probably inherited a lot of stuff from fallen Netheril, then slowly added (and devised) many new items over the subsequent centuries. On the other hand, Thay has been aggressively accumulating and inventing magical items across those same centuries, stimulated (and captured) through endless warfare within and without the borders, stolen from neighbours and distant lands, seized through planar agents. Consider that, circa 3E-era Realms, the Red Wizards opened a large chain of magic shops across Faerûn, selling off their apparently endless surplus and, for discerning buyers, even offering items or spells promptly made to custom specifications. Conversely, Halruaa only offered a few airships for sale at outrageous prices, even these aren't as numerous or versatile as Thay's spelljamming fleet.
Thay got blasted into an undead wasteland in 4E, while Halruaa simply got blasted out of existence, so I'm assuming all these arguments are pre-4E context. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 15:34:24
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Keep in mind, though, that Halruaa has been attacked by its neighbors, more than once. And Halruaa does have a huge number of high level wizards -- they may not have gotten there by blasting holes in the backs of those in front of them, but to paraphrase Harry Dresden, you don't get to be a high-level wizard by collecting bottle caps.
Magic is pretty much the state religion, in Halruaa. You dismiss the overall magic talent of Halruaan citizens -- but even an archmage is in trouble if a few dozen people toss magic missiles at him, all at once. Lenin once observed that quantity is its own quality, and when it comes to talented spellslingers, Halruaa has more of both. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 09 Oct 2011 : 16:40:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You dismiss the overall magic talent of Halruaan citizens -- but even an archmage is in trouble if a few dozen people toss magic missiles at him, all at once. Lenin once observed that quantity is its own quality, and when it comes to talented spellslingers, Halruaa has more of both.
That's why I have persistent shield (Woot). Not saying your argument doesn't bear water for all the others though. Truly, I think like other folks here. Any conflict between these two comes down to location and who is the aggressor (not totally, but those two carry a lot of weight). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Firestorm
Senior Scribe
Canada
826 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2011 : 01:01:49
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quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
I wouldn't be so sure about Halruaa winning the day.
From Shinning South:
quote:
Until about six months ago, Aluarim was the home of Rhodea
Firehair (NG female human evoker 18/Halruaan elder 3), the
most powerful evoker in the country
Level 21 doesn't seem so powerfull compared to the zulkirs especially Szass Tam.
So Halruaa has more magic users, more magic items and maybe knows some more magic tricks, Thay on the other hand has more powerfull magic users and much expirience in wars. I guess that doesn't sound so bad for Thay.
Btw: beeing a wizard and beeing a wizards who knows how to fight is a big diffrent too in my opinion.
Well, that is just the most powerful student of "evocation". Unlike Thay, it is not always the most powerful who are the most well known to most people.
From Forgotten realms Campaign setting
Necromancy: Szass Tam Nec10/Red10/Acm2/Epic7 CR31
Conjuration: Nevron Cjr10/Red10/Acm2/Epic2 CR24
Transmutation: Druxus Rhym Tra10/Red10/Acm4 CR24
Abjuration: Lallara Abj10/Red10/Acm1 CR21
Enchantment: Lauzoril Enc10/Red10/Acm2 CR22
Evocation: Aznar Thrul Evo10/Red10/Acm3 CR23
Divination: Yaphyll Div10/Red5/Lor4 CR19
Transmutation 2: Samas Kul Tra7/Red8 CR15 (He took over as Zulkir of Transmutation after.
King Zalathorm of Haluraa is a Div20/Lor9 CR29
And many of the others mentioned in Shining south don"t seem all that different from the powerful of Thay |
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althen artren
Senior Scribe
USA
780 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2011 : 01:48:30
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That's only because Halruaa doesn't
have a comprehensive list of
archmages. We've never seen a list
of 20+level mages of Halruaa. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2011 : 02:06:27
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A first-level Protection from cantrips spell can nullify any advantage generated by mass quantities of cantra-level magics. Even assuming, of course, that a goodly number of cantras could somehow be applied to some sort of conflict instead of, say, causing breaded yeast to rise at the proper time or chisels to stay sharp longer. Remember that Halruuan cantras are simple minor magics, developed to aid non-magical everyday work tasks in small ways, quite useful in their specialized applications but also quite trivial overall, they are not at all like random innate talents which duplicate spells of any level. I doubt any cantras could mimic magic missile effects, except perhaps on a scale suitable for zapping a housefly across the room.
If my players are any indicator, when their spellcasting characters expect magical battles, then far more potent defenses like dispel magic, globe of invulnerability, anti-magic shell, or sertan's spell immunity are standard preparations - not to mention shield, invisibility, blur, and all the rest. I can't see how a common man armed with a few cantras could possibly contest a real wizard, let alone an aggressive wizard prepared for battle.
I can see Halruaan populations having more of a cosmopolitan background understanding of common spell principles; they might know that the stench of sulphur usually means take cover from fireballs, or that lightning bolts can be impeded by stone, etc. Most commoners outside Halruaa (including Thayan peasantry) are largely ignorant and fearful of magic; they're likely to make some sort of "secret" superstitious warding gesture, carry useless charms to protect against evil magics, and assume all wizards have sold their souls to demons to gain fell powers.
I'm not so sure Halruaan citizens would possess a lot of magical items of any consequence, items like self-heating cookpots and variable intensity glowstones seem unlikely to be very decisive when used in battle. I suppose Halruaan magic users (the real ones with spellcasting classes) might possess a much higher concentration of magical gear, though again I'm unconvinced a lot of it would be greatly useful in combat. Halruaans are known for accurate divination magics, which can translate into great advantages indeed, if properly utilized. Halruaans are also known to have widely travelled other planes and worlds, so perhaps they might possess some celestial toys designed specifically to counter the sorts of fiendish contraptions employed by Red Wizards. I think it's reasonable to assume that Halruaan medicine and alchemy is much more advanced; it doesn't seem too unreasonable for every household to contain a few magical potions, some of which might be very useful in battle.
I'm not trying to definitely assert that Thay is superior to Halruaa, especially since (as stated above) I know a fair amount about Red Wizards but I'm really not all well informed about Halruaan specifics. It does seem to me that - insofar as magical duelling, destruction, and dominance are concerned - the Red Wizards have many overwhelming advantages. A battalion of veteran 18th century musket-wielding cavalrymen would likely achieve quick and decisive victory when assaulting a modern suburban neighbourhood, no matter how sophisticated and advanced the local population might be. It's like comparing jalapeños to tomatoes, hardly the same thing and no contest at all when things get spicy. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Thay versus Halruaa
