| Author |
 Topic  |
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Oct 2011 : 06:38:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Firestorm
quote:
Originally posted by _Jarlaxle_
I wouldn't be so sure about Halruaa winning the day.
From Shinning South:
quote:
Until about six months ago, Aluarim was the home of Rhodea
Firehair (NG female human evoker 18/Halruaan elder 3), the
most powerful evoker in the country
Level 21 doesn't seem so powerfull compared to the zulkirs especially Szass Tam.
So Halruaa has more magic users, more magic items and maybe knows some more magic tricks, Thay on the other hand has more powerfull magic users and much expirience in wars. I guess that doesn't sound so bad for Thay.
Btw: beeing a wizard and beeing a wizards who knows how to fight is a big diffrent too in my opinion.
Well, that is just the most powerful student of "evocation". Unlike Thay, it is not always the most powerful who are the most well known to most people.
From Forgotten realms Campaign setting
Necromancy: Szass Tam Nec10/Red10/Acm2/Epic7 CR31
Conjuration: Nevron Cjr10/Red10/Acm2/Epic2 CR24
Transmutation: Druxus Rhym Tra10/Red10/Acm4 CR24
Abjuration: Lallara Abj10/Red10/Acm1 CR21
Enchantment: Lauzoril Enc10/Red10/Acm2 CR22
Evocation: Aznar Thrul Evo10/Red10/Acm3 CR23
Divination: Yaphyll Div10/Red5/Lor4 CR19
Transmutation 2: Samas Kul Tra7/Red8 CR15 (He took over as Zulkir of Transmutation after.
King Zalathorm of Haluraa is a Div20/Lor9 CR29
And many of the others mentioned in Shining south don"t seem all that different from the powerful of Thay
One thing people also forget to mention is that its not always the highest level caster of said type who becomes Zulkir. Its very much political clout as well. There have been other red wizards listed in the past who were beyond the level of their Zulkirs, but they didn't want to deal with the bureaucracy that also comes with running a country. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
 |
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2011 : 08:57:10
|
The Zulkirs are formidable opponents indeed, but
1) there's only eight of them, at best, which is insignificant against the thousands of mages in a nation, and
2) they hardly ever act in a cooperative and cohesive manner, instead spending most of their efforts attempting to thwart each other, and
3) Halruaa has some number of formidable epic-tier megamages as well.
Agreed that experience level alone is not an accurate indicator of capability when much of a Zulkir's power is measured in terms of steel, wealth, allies, and enemies. Power - whatever that is - can be defined as ability to impose control or change on one's environment, and Zulkirs can apply plenty of power without even needing to call directly upon their magics. There are probably quite a few Red Wizards with experience levels exceeding those of their Zulkirs, yet without sufficient power (or opportunity, or ruthless ambition) to advance themselves. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 10 Oct 2011 09:00:33 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2011 : 09:10:20
|
Indeed, sleyvas. As a matter of fact, that's what happened to Samas Kul. He's powerful, but not the most powerful in his order. Szass Tam's spies and allies influenced the Order of Transmutation to choose Samas because the lich knew it would benefit him. The more powerful one is, the harder it is to manipulate him. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Oct 2011 : 09:16:58
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The Zulkirs are formidable opponents indeed, but [....] they hardly ever act in a cooperative and cohesive manner, instead spending most of their efforts attempting to thwart each other [....]
I noted this before. While selfish beyond measure, the zulkirs would readily unite to face a common, foreign threat. Their alliance, albeit uneasy, during the Civil War is a proof of that. I wouldn't say they would exploit the situation to gain an upper hand over their peers, but ultimately, they would devote their armies and even their own powers to defend their realm. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 01:20:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The Zulkirs are formidable opponents indeed, but [....] they hardly ever act in a cooperative and cohesive manner, instead spending most of their efforts attempting to thwart each other [....]
I noted this before. While selfish beyond measure, the zulkirs would readily unite to face a common, foreign threat. Their alliance, albeit uneasy, during the Civil War is a proof of that. I wouldn't say they would exploit the situation to gain an upper hand over their peers, but ultimately, they would devote their armies and even their own powers to defend their realm.
Yeah, again it comes back to who is invading whom, etc.... If Halruaa invaded Thay, I'd compare it to the start of the Civil War. The southerners would be the Thayans, highly skilled in combat magics and killing, familiar with the territory, and highly effective in guerrilla tactics in their own homeland, while also able to form up and perform well together if necessary to defend the homeland.
However, if Thay were invading Halruaa, they wouldn't be as together as a force, they'd have infighting more likely in their ranks, and their guerrilla tactics would probably incite fierce opposition against them from the Halruaans such that they would have to kill everyone they came across. They'd also probably have less control of their troops as well, as their troops would be out to rape and pillage. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 04:42:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
They'd also probably have less control of their troops as well, as their troops would be out to rape and pillage.
Not unless they have skilled and disciplined captains. Bareris and Aoth punished some imbeciles in their troops who tortured a family and intended to rape a girl. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 05:55:42
|
| Civil wars have been fought for many years, in many nations, without any resemblance to the "North/South" polarity or issues seen in the American Civil War, sleyvas. Some of these split continent-spanning empires and civilizations, impacting politics and people for centuries. Some formed religious schisms which even today seethe endlessly until they erupt into conflict. Not trying to diminish the importance of the American Civil War, just pointing out that it was a relatively minor and contained conflict when measured on the scale of world history. Civil war in Thay would be less significant still, assuming anybody other than Szass Tam manages to survive it. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 06:23:23
|
quote:
Dennis
Bareris and Aoth punished some imbeciles in their troops who tortured a family and intended to rape a girl.
Actually, that particular scene gave me some pause for troubled consideration. Certainly our societies (and milktoast-inoffensive Wizbro publishing guidelines) laud such efforts to do the right thing, protect the weak, and punish injustice. Rape, torture, and murder are some of the worst crimes imaginable.
But Aoth Fezim, Warmage and once Captain of the Thayan Griffon Legion of Pyarados, was a product of the Thayan military machine. Thayan born, trained, and tempered. Indeed, his rather obvious "disadvantage" of Rashemi heritage forced him to be exemplary, more capable, more ruthless, than any of his "purebred" Mulan-blooded peers, lest he come under scrutiny as a weakling or traitor. In my mind a Thayan Captain would hardly notice, let alone punish, acts of brutality committed by his troops unless they interfere with military objectives and readiness; sad to say, but if anything such Captains would probably deliberately tolerate (even encourage) "reasonable amounts" of such activities to keep morale of the troops in top form. Medieval soldiers were not at all like professional modern ones - even most of the the noble-born and elite militants weren't exceptions - and they were highly motivated by rape, plunder, and pillage; it was something of a "benefit" in their vocation, and a big part of what made war so horrible for the losers, hard callous killers living in a hard callous world. Such activities were also a big part of the reputation and diplomatic/political negotiating power possessed by military officers; meet their demands or have your city sacked.
Bareris Anskuld, even though a bit of a loser, was also Thay born and bred, plus he was a marginally sophisticated bard with wordly experience. Even if he personally disapproved of the practice, he would still recognize it as an inevitable event in war, at least in the armies of Thay; one simply cannot command brutish men without sometimes allowing them to be brutes.
So, in short, I was rather surprised to see this passage applied to Thayan troops. In my mind such passages should've been struck entirely out of the writing, let the more sophisticated readers judge the context for themselves rather than be forced to accept the judgement imposed by our society's published sense of justice. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 13 Oct 2011 06:31:09 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 06:31:55
|
Simply put, their hearts possess a shred of goodness. While arguably most Thayans are cruel and sadistic, particularly the ruling elite, some of them, not just of Rashemi blood but even the Mulan themselves, are not. Besides, Bareris and Aoth are not Red Wizards. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 06:41:48
|
| Hm, look to the most "evil" and oppressed societies of our own world today ... you won't find a lot of people with pure and noble ideals who are willing to defy their social norms and challenge their peers (especially their most violent peers) in the name of doing what they feel is right. Murder is much less of a crime when you see people die and walk past corpses every day, it's hard to keep your hands unsoiled when you're staying alive in a war zone. So too with crimes of rape and torture in our own medieval histories. Why should the Realms, let alone the most tyrannized places like Thay, be completely different? |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2011 : 08:14:56
|
Hard, but not impossible. Had Aoth and Bareris been fighting an undead monstrosity by the time they saw their imbecile subordinates torture a family, I would understand if they would ignore them. But no, the two were relatively unoccupied that time, and saw it fit [dictated by conscience or some semblance of humanity in them] to stop such brutish act. The author fairly established Aoth and Bareris not as uncaring bastards. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Thay versus Halruaa
