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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 00:09:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
They were my thoughts too, especially after reading the Councellors Trilogy. Halruaa WILL pull together to fight an common enemy. Thayan wizards are constantly backstabbing and in conflicts with each other and due to their alignment i doubt they could pull together strong enough to fight against Halruaa.
Let me just remind you folks of a little story about the formation of a country known as America. There were the mighty British who were banded together. On the battlefield, they had no master. However, the British sought to tax the colonies (aka stop the red wizards from pursuing their research). The colonists, while divisive and not very willing to fight for each other's states, soon learned that they were very good at sneaking up on the Brits and picking them off while they were taking a leak in the woods. Yes, the Thayans would fight the noble Halruaans not on the battlefield (well, they would some)... they would fight the Halruaans by teleporting into their homes, releasing spell infested undead rats, and turning their mothers and simple peasants into horrible monstrosities. Have no doubt... Halruaa has no stomach for a fight with Thay.... and 'twould only awaken a hunger in the Thayans that would lead to the destruction of Halruaa. This is why when the original red wizards rose up amongst their ranks, the Halruaans quickly sought to have them get elsewhere. Had they had the stomach back then to quell the threat, it would not have grown so much worse. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11829 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 00:25:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Cohesion is of the utmost importance in any confrontation.
Thay would lose, PERIOD.
All other things being equal (numbers, magical power, etc), Halruaa's primary advantage is its ability to act as an organized and well-disciplined machine.
Thayans simply cannot fight a war in the manner they have been trying - that's why it hasn't worked. They do not know how to work well together, and even in the midst of battle various Red Wizards with their own agendas will use the war as an opportunity to get rid of rivals.
I really don't even see how anyone could think otherwise - history has proven a disorganized army will always lose to an well-organized one, even if out-numbered and out-gunned (watch The Last Samurai). Thay may be able to cause a lot of harm if they stoop to hit-and-run guerilla tactics, but they are not know for that so I do not see them fighting that way (when you consider your troops 'fodder', you do not try to use them wisely). A more Faerunian example would be the battle with the Tuigan Horde. Shou Lung should have ended that threat, but it, too, uses it soldiers wastefully. Azoun was much smarter, and used his inferior forces in a manner they would be most effective. You don't need to be strong, you just need to 'fight smart'. Thay doesn't do that.
There is absolutely no question in my mind who would win. In fact, even in 4e I think Halruaans would win, despite their current state (or rather, perhaps because of it).
Thay doesn't fight that way when they are invading. However, when they are being invaded.... this is a totally different story. A cornered beast is very dangerous. Especially to a child who has been kept in isolation his whole life and not taught to fear that which is fuzzy but has sharp teeth. Halruaa is that child. That is that wolf.
When they want to create just all around devastation and chaos amongst the enemy, the Thayans are indeed masters of creating a quick and simple plot. If Halruaa ever threatened Thay, they'd go limping home. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 03:43:56
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| Mildly OT here - what happened to Halruaa? Was it nuked or just "disappeared" in Abier? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 04:39:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Mildly OT here - what happened to Halruaa? Was it nuked or just "disappeared" in Abier?
It was nuked. According to the lore we've been given, Halruaa blew up -- and the force of that destruction turned what was a peninsula into an island. Oddly, this destructive force was on the other side of a mountain range. Even more oddly, the destructive force necessary to devastate land on the other side of a mountain range didn't do all that much to Halruaa itself. The land is mostly intact -- even the cities remain at least somewhat intact.
If you want an explanation for all that, I don't know if one exists. It certainly blows my mind.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 22 Nov 2010 04:41:17 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 05:25:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Mildly OT here - what happened to Halruaa? Was it nuked or just "disappeared" in Abier?
It was nuked. According to the lore we've been given, Halruaa blew up -- and the force of that destruction turned what was a peninsula into an island. Oddly, this destructive force was on the other side of a mountain range. Even more oddly, the destructive force necessary to devastate land on the other side of a mountain range didn't do all that much to Halruaa itself. The land is mostly intact -- even the cities remain at least somewhat intact.
If you want an explanation for all that, I don't know if one exists. It certainly blows my mind.
We also know, thanks to this little tidbit from "The Ecology of the Sharn" article by Brian James in DRAGON #373:-
quote:
Halruaa: Much of the lore and traditions of Halruaa lives on within the few souls assimilated by the sharns before, during, and after that nation’s destruction. Sharns are actively exploring the ruined capital of Halarahh in search of the Zalathorm’s Clockwork Sceptre.
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 05:39:49
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| Is this now something of an undeveloped "open" area for future real-estate development? Or some kind of hostile Demon Wastes or wildzone or impenetrable mystery/evil/planar place? Or just "nothing" beyond a mildly uninteresting radioactive crater? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 05:53:42
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It's the Forgotten Realms version of the Mournland... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Sandro
Learned Scribe
New Zealand
266 Posts |
Posted - 22 Nov 2010 : 06:04:57
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Incidentally, having just finished reading Silverfall, there's one point at which a Thayan spying on a Halruaan remarks upon how endlessly screwed Thay would be if Halruaa ever mobilized against them.
Dunno how accurate he was, but it was an Ed novel, so... |
"Gods, little fishes, and spells to turn the one to the other," Mordenkainen sighed. "It's started already..." |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 09:06:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
Mildly OT here - what happened to Halruaa? Was it nuked or just "disappeared" in Abier?
It was nuked. According to the lore we've been given, Halruaa blew up -- and the force of that destruction turned what was a peninsula into an island. Oddly, this destructive force was on the other side of a mountain range. Even more oddly, the destructive force necessary to devastate land on the other side of a mountain range didn't do all that much to Halruaa itself. The land is mostly intact -- even the cities remain at least somewhat intact.
If you want an explanation for all that, I don't know if one exists. It certainly blows my mind.
Didn't Ed mention anything about it? Elaine doesn't have any explanation either, except that there were a few unknown survivors. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 10:35:34
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| Ed hasn't had the opportunity to say too much about the Spellplague's impact on Halruaa. So this might be the time to ask him. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 23 Nov 2010 10:36:28 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 16:38:09
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The 'destructive force' was NOT a conventional blast wave, it was a wall of seething magical energy that passed right through mountain ranges and just about everything else, EXCEPT regions that were specifically protected with non-weave magic (and if you think Mythals are weave magic, then why is it something Elves had brought over from Faerie, where the Weave does not exist?)
Elven High-Magic taps into those energies beyond the Weave, and therefor offered protection, as did certain other forms of magic (Shadow, and possibly myhtallars - epic magic probably taps into those 'higher energies' as well).
Magic that was wholly Weave-based, and nearly all of Halruaa's was, drew the Cerulean Wave like a magnet, and everything that used those energies became momentarily super-charge. This caused nearly everything in Halruaa to either burn-up, melt, or explode.
Picture holding a long metal rod as high as you can, in the center of a vast empty field, as a lightening storm rolls-in. Thats precisely what happened in Halruaa. Wherever the magic became 'grounded', things got fried. The human body, as do many machines, carry fairly weak electrical current within them - when hit with something like a lightening bolt they overload and cook; what happened when the Spellplague hit was precisely the same thing, but only with Arcane Energy instead of electrical.
Too bad the Halruaans didn't invest in surge-protectors.
If you look at where the continent was actually blown-apart, it is centered around where the Yuan-ti had some ancient holdings - lost cities and what-not. It's pretty obvious to me that they had a least one uber-artifact there that exploded, and possibly several. The resultant devastation sent a Tsunami across the entire southern coast of Faerûn, and Halruaa and Luiren appear to have gotten the worst of that. But whereas Luiren's geography allowed much of the water to disperse almost immediately (it's still pretty swampy there now), Halruaa's acted like a giant bowl. Between that natural disaster and the magical one, most of Halruaa's citizens perished, except for those that were high in the mountains or other remote locations.
EDIT: And considering Zehir is 'new' to the Realms, it would also make sense if it had something to do with him down around the Black & Mhair Jungles, centered on the Lapal Sea. I have no idea what Bioware(?) is doing with him, but if I were a designer I would say that the Lapal sea was where it (a primordial) was cast down to earth and powerful (arcane) energies were used to trap him there (probably asleep - serpent-gods apparently like to sleep a lot). When it was released (in a massive explosion), all hell broke loose (literally?) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Nov 2010 16:56:14 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 21:03:24
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Yeah, but the info we have says that Halruaa detonated, and it was that explosion that caused all the damage. That's why it doesn't make sense -- at ground zero, the damage isn't all that bad, but on the other side of a wall of mountains, it was much worse.
quote:
What was once called Halruaa detonated and was destroyed when every inscribed and prepared spell in the nation went off simultaneously. This explosion was partly to blame for destroying the land bridge between Chult and the Shining South—only a scattered archipelago remains.
So the nation blew up, did massive damage elsewhere, but there are still cities standing where the explosion happened. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Nov 2010 21:05:57 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2010 : 22:00:08
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*** DELETED ***
Nevermind....  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Nov 2010 22:10:20 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 01:42:58
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quote:
Wooly Rupert
So the nation blew up, did massive damage elsewhere, but there are still cities standing where the explosion happened.
Ed's already explained this "tornado" effect. Raw chaotic destructive magic badness; it might obliterate two castles (or trailer parks, if you prefer) while leaving an eggshell balanced between them entirely untouched.
I just shrug it off. Halruaa's gone, oh well, shame I never spent much time there. Like anything else magical the explanation is not required to make sense at all. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 04:01:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
Wooly Rupert
So the nation blew up, did massive damage elsewhere, but there are still cities standing where the explosion happened.
Ed's already explained this "tornado" effect. Raw chaotic destructive magic badness; it might obliterate two castles (or trailer parks, if you prefer) while leaving an eggshell balanced between them entirely untouched.
Even that explanation doesn't work for me. Halruaa's mountains have always been one of the things that helped protect the nation. It just does not make sense for an explosion to do more damage on the other side of a barrier than it did where the explosion happened.
quote:
Originally posted by Arik
I just shrug it off. Halruaa's gone, oh well, shame I never spent much time there. Like anything else magical the explanation is not required to make sense at all.
I'll also disagree on this point. There is a certain amount of hand-waving that can be done with the "it's magic!" explanation. But there comes a point when it breaks down. The Realms was built with a great amount of internal consistency -- and things like this go against that. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 04:15:42
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| Perhaps some horribly destructive magical cataclysm befell the "other" Halruaa-zone in Abier, simultaneously or even in ages past, and the Spellplague "overlapped" or linked some sort of resonant spillover onto Toril? Improvised handwavium of this sort is hard to swallow without a lot of liquid storywork, but it would provide some hint of "internal consistency" in the Realms for those who demand it. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 05:18:04
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| What perplexes me is that how come the most powerful diviner in Faerun, King Zalathorn himself, was not able to divine the SP ---by which he could have saved his kingdom--- while a rather less powerful wizard, Zulkir Yaphyll, was able to. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 05:33:39
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| Well, she was on drugs. And magically compelled to recklessly drive her vision beyond all limits of safety and sanity. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 05:50:36
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He wouldn't have to do it alone. Being the king and the most powerful diviner in the land, ensuring the safety of the nation was supposed to be his paramount obligation. An annual, monthly, or weekly divination would have been logical---to see what future threat Halruaa would face. The ritual could have been done by a circle of ten or twenty archmage-diviners, all protected by another circle of a score of abjurers.
Yaphyll died because no one cast a potent-enough protective spell on her. And let's be reminded that she's not adept at all in spells of protection. Lallara even scoffed her (though the Zulkir of Divination wasn't around when the bi*** muttered her biting litany) for not bothering to cloak her refuge with protective spells. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 07:13:29
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
What perplexes me is that how come the most powerful diviner in Faerun, King Zalathorn himself, was not able to divine the SP ---by which he could have saved his kingdom--- while a rather less powerful wizard, Zulkir Yaphyll, was able to.
Zalathorm has been described as a Diviner, with some psionic ability that allows him to predict the future. Perhaps he simply didn't possess enough skill in the arts of prophetic divination to truly determine what was coming.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 07:22:34
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| Zalathorm only rolled a 5. Explains everything. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 07:24:40
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
What perplexes me is that how come the most powerful diviner in Faerun, King Zalathorn himself, was not able to divine the SP ---by which he could have saved his kingdom--- while a rather less powerful wizard, Zulkir Yaphyll, was able to.
Zalathorm has been described as a Diviner, with some psionic ability that allows him to predict the future. Perhaps he simply didn't possess enough skill in the arts of prophetic divination to truly determine what was coming.
Perhaps. But as I mentioned, he wouldn't have to do it alone. A circle of twenty diviners protected (from whatever spell-effects) by another circle of abjurers might have done the job.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 08:42:16
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
What perplexes me is that how come the most powerful diviner in Faerun, King Zalathorn himself, was not able to divine the SP ---by which he could have saved his kingdom--- while a rather less powerful wizard, Zulkir Yaphyll, was able to.
Zalathorm has been described as a Diviner, with some psionic ability that allows him to predict the future. Perhaps he simply didn't possess enough skill in the arts of prophetic divination to truly determine what was coming.
Perhaps. But as I mentioned, he wouldn't have to do it alone. A circle of twenty diviners protected (from whatever spell-effects) by another circle of abjurers might have done the job.
Well, we should also take into account that we still know so very little about what actully occurred with the coming of the Spellplague. A lot of it is still vague. So I'd assume that somewhere in the vagaries of explanation lies the reasons for why Zalathorm received no prophectic warning about the event. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 08:47:26
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| ... or perhaps Zalathorm did receive some sort of warning yet misinterpreted or ignored it. There'd have be a pretty solid reason for a mighty diviner to make such an amateurish blunder. |
[/Ayrik] |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 09:19:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
... or perhaps Zalathorm did receive some sort of warning yet misinterpreted or ignored it. There'd have be a pretty solid reason for a mighty diviner to make such an amateurish blunder.
Works just as well. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 09:27:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
What perplexes me is that how come the most powerful diviner in Faerun, King Zalathorn himself, was not able to divine the SP ---by which he could have saved his kingdom--- while a rather less powerful wizard, Zulkir Yaphyll, was able to.
Zalathorm has been described as a Diviner, with some psionic ability that allows him to predict the future. Perhaps he simply didn't possess enough skill in the arts of prophetic divination to truly determine what was coming.
Perhaps. But as I mentioned, he wouldn't have to do it alone. A circle of twenty diviners protected (from whatever spell-effects) by another circle of abjurers might have done the job.
Well, we should also take into account that we still know so very little about what actully occurred with the coming of the Spellplague. A lot of it is still vague. So I'd assume that somewhere in the vagaries of explanation lies the reasons for why Zalathorm received no prophectic warning about the event.
Fair enough.
It seems like all we can do is speculate and 'fill in the blanks...' Perhaps it's one of the mysteries that WotC had long planned to unearth in the near future. Or so I hope. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 09:50:37
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I don't think any novels about Halruaa have been written yet ... I could be wrong.
A Netheril-like tale of arrogant wizards daring to grasp too much might be fitting. Zalathorm's diviners could have seen the spellplague coming decades ago and devised some ambitious (failed?) one-shot project to harness the immense energy of the event to propel Halruaa onto the planes or something. Or constructed a magic defense which somehow "phased" Halruaa to a safer place (or even Abier). Or been thwarted by hungry Mephistopheles, who saw this brief hole in the Realms as his opportunity to eat some magic. The mystery of Halruaa is infinitely more entertaining than Thay's superstore chain and Szass's renovations. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 10:19:08
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| The Counselors and Kings trilogy is about Halruaa. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 11:03:19
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| Book-shopping in the morning, then. I'll speak naught else of Halruaa until I've read the lore. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 24 Nov 2010 : 17:24:31
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
The Counselors and Kings trilogy is about Halruaa.
Written by Eliane Cunningham also... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Thay versus Halruaa
