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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 30 May 2005 : 04:06:27
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I was going to stay out of this but I have back up Wooly. If the drow aren't welcome in Waterdeep and Silverymoon without disguises, these last two are straight from Ed, then the Dalesman are never going to agree to a treaty with any drow. :)
But it's your setting so do what you wish. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 30 May 2005 04:09:22 |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2005 : 07:22:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I was going to stay out of this but I have back up Wooly. If the drow aren't welcome in Waterdeep and Silverymoon without disguises, these last two are straight from Ed, then the Dalesman are never going to agree to a treaty with any drow. :)
But it's your setting so do what you wish. :)
Even in Silverymoon? Isn`t one of Alustriels friends a certain drow? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2005 : 07:32:56
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I was going to stay out of this but I have back up Wooly. If the drow aren't welcome in Waterdeep and Silverymoon without disguises, these last two are straight from Ed, then the Dalesman are never going to agree to a treaty with any drow. :)
But it's your setting so do what you wish. :)
Even in Silverymoon? Isn`t one of Alustriels friends a certain drow?
Yes but he usually do not walk openly within Silverymoon. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2005 : 11:50:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I was going to stay out of this but I have back up Wooly. If the drow aren't welcome in Waterdeep and Silverymoon without disguises, these last two are straight from Ed, then the Dalesman are never going to agree to a treaty with any drow. :)
So they are not allowed into walled and guarded cities. The fact remains that they are in the countryside. That Jaelre has even taken over some former Elven cities, which might ban other races from entering. There are know Drow groves to Eilistraee that no Dalesman would be inclined to venture into (unless coming in peace). The Drow are on the surface, they own manor houses, have small comunities in places. They have not been driven from the lands and most likely canon will never drive them from the lands. Real world might have removed undesirablle races, there are examples of this in history (Wolves, American Indians, the Moors, etc.) they were mostly killed or driven out of the lands they ranged.
quote:
But it's your setting so do what you wish. :)
This I think is important to keep in mind.
Saying canon nor I will allow the Drow to make a treaty with the Dalesman and the Elves, because ... , does not really answer the question.
Answers geared to how some might be able to help the DM come up with believeable ways that some kind of treaty can be made. Even if it is kept in mind that Drow always look for the best deal.
House Jaelre is on the surface in rather large numbers, they want to be the leaders of a many race nation (with them in charge of course), thus there is reason for them to make a deal to further long range goals.
The Dalesman have a reason to make a deal, they can not get rid of the Drow and a deal could reduce the number of Drow attacks and perhaps even provide security.
The Elves have a reason to make a deal, they do not now have enough numbers or allies to drive the Drow from areas they already control. Making a deal might stop them from taking control over more surface areas. Further these Drow hate Lollthians as much as the Elves do.
Yes there will be mistrust and there will be violations of any deal by all sides of the deal. There will also likely be problems from other races and certainly Drow of other faiths.
Menbers of the three groups have reason to make a deal. Oh there are also reasons for all out war, but a war all sides will lose members and resources and canon (at least as of this time) appears to indicate tht no party will actually win (i.e. There will always be Dalesman, Drow and Elves living in the same reion).
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2005 : 15:08:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Answers geared to how some might be able to help the DM come up with believeable ways that some kind of treaty can be made. Even if it is kept in mind that Drow always look for the best deal.
Have you not been paying attention? The point a lot of us are making is that we don't see a believable way to pull this off.
Talk all you want about drow on the surface and how there are reasons to make a deal... None of us see a reason that the deal would be made. It's not easy to suggest how to make something happen when we know it couldn't. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2005 : 17:19:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
So they are not allowed into walled and guarded cities. The fact remains that they are in the countryside. That Jaelre has even taken over some former Elven cities, which might ban other races from entering. There are know Drow groves to Eilistraee that no Dalesman would be inclined to venture into (unless coming in peace). The Drow are on the surface, they own manor houses, have small comunities in places. They have not been driven from the lands and most likely canon will never drive them from the lands. Real world might have removed undesirablle races, there are examples of this in history (Wolves, American Indians, the Moors, etc.) they were mostly killed or driven out of the lands they ranged.
Wow, way to miss the point. That wasn't my point at all. My point was this: If they are not welcome in the 2 cities that welcome a lot of strange races, then there's no way in the Nine Hells that the Dalesman would agree to a treaty with a race that slaughters, kills, kidnaps, tortures, etc. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2005 : 17:26:23
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| Also, I am not sure that even recent events make it seem that the drow will always be living in this region. The drow houses that have come to the surface have done so recently, and for the most part are out numbered greatly by the humans, and if the elves begin to return to the area, the drow will have a difficult time of it. If house Jaelre or Auzkovyn ends up controlling Myth Drannor and commanding its Mythal, then you could argue that they may be more entrenched right now, but for now they are a new variable, and thats about it. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2005 : 17:34:30
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After posting that and reading the origins of this particular thread, I wanted to point out that this is just my take on how the politics in this region would work. It may not be this way in anyone else's campaign, and I don't want to tell anyone that their brilliant campaign hook is not up to snuff. I'm sure I have come up with a few things that wouldn't jive with some of my fellow scribes.
That having been said, my PCs immediately upon encountering a Jaelre patrol freaked out and attacked, knowing the reputation of the drow, though the dwarf was wondering why there were no females in the band. They also managed to capture a Jaelre wizard alive, and they have spend some time getting to know him. Its been pretty interesting, but dispite this personal relationship with the prisoner (the dwarf visits him and plays Sava with him), when they meet other drow they default to their original "freak out" mode. |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 00:04:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Another issue: why are people going to trust these drow? Everyone has heard tales of drow atrocities and how evil the race is...
It's going to take a long time and an uphill battle for the drow to earn the trust of their neighbors.
Aren't there supposed to be Eilistraeen drow in the Velarswood who have won the respect and loyalty of their human neighbors? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2008 : 01:38:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Another issue: why are people going to trust these drow? Everyone has heard tales of drow atrocities and how evil the race is...
It's going to take a long time and an uphill battle for the drow to earn the trust of their neighbors.
Aren't there supposed to be Eilistraeen drow in the Velarswood who have won the respect and loyalty of their human neighbors?
I don't think it's so much about the drow having won the respect and loyalty of the Harrans. Rather, it is that the folk in Velarsburg "are almost proud to know that such wild, fey things go on around them. [In reference to the Velarwood drow and their rituals of worship for the Dark Maiden] The Harrans here live close, to the land and feel themselves part of an ancient cycle that is splendid and savage..." |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 16:04:19
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Unfortunetly, the GHotR just lumped the two completely different groups of Drow together and ended their storyline rather abruptly and with little fanfare. I really like the Cormanthor entries in the 3e FRCS, and to just end the whole thing like it was an afterthought, because they wanted to move on to 4e is just sad, IMHO.
Unless the war described at the end of GHotR was part of The Last Mythal series, which I haven't read, and they were given a little more respect therein, in which case I apologize for making assumptions. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 20:34:27
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Sometimes you wonder whether people have actually read the sources. No disrespect, but the Dales have been raided by drow for ages, I mean, it was them who built the Tower of Ashaba and only recently (Realms of the Elves) one band of monk killers tried to lay Elminster low.
Dalesmen will hardly make a difference whether these drow are Vhaeraunians, Lolthites or Kiaransaleens (who had a little venture to the Dales during City of the Spider Queen methinks). Or one House Jaelre. Some ... as in SOME ... might have heard of good drow and may not slay these outright, but as much as bloodshed and violance is "inbred" into drow or orcs or *you name a monster*, as much is there distrust inbred in the humans of the Dales.
After the Last Mythal series, the Lady Penitent fiasco and the resettlement of Myth Drannor by the elves, I doubt that the drow - weakened on all fronts as they are - will start bartering or meddling with the humans. They will lick their wounds, band together, and start a new venture.
BTW, I'd rather use the drow in the Forest of Mir as a base for creating "my own" semi-surface drow settlement. For you hardly have any info on them and those bits and pieces which one can find leave far more room for interpretation than those currently to be found in Cormanthor. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2008 : 20:43:42
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Yes!
I find that particular group facinating myself - they even sided with Calimshan, Aranea, and Elves(!) during the Beholder Wars down there, and they have been living 'peacably' in that region for centuries (accept when others have come to attack them, as the Elves of Wealdath did).
And they ride little Warponies just like the Tuigan!  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2008 : 13:54:00
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| Where did you glean that bit of info from? |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2008 : 16:28:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Unless the war described at the end of GHotR was part of The Last Mythal series, which I haven't read, and they were given a little more respect therein, in which case I apologize for making assumptions.
The Cormanthor drow were more of an afterthought in The Last Mythal than anything else. They had one scene between the leader of the Fey'ri and Jezz the Lame, and nothing I can remmeber after that. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2008 : 21:07:13
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Too bad... they were so interesting in the FRCG - its as if that lore was just 'in the way' of the story RB wanted to tell, so he just swept them under the rug.
I hate when authors get annoyed at the history others have worked so hard to create, so they just crap all over it.
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Where did you glean that bit of info from?
Thanks...
I've just spent the better part of an hour looking for it, and can't find it! I've checked all the normal enries that should apply - Forest of Mir, Sarenestar, Aranea, Drow (and their cities), Lost Ajhuutal, Eye Tyrant Wars, etc, etc...
I know they allied with Calimshan (who in turn were allied with Tethyr, although that might have been at a different time period against the the Beholders) and the Aranea. At this point, I'm uncertain about them allying with Elves - I must have gotten a little mixed up because Calimshan was allied with Tethyr (at one point), and later Tethyr informed the Elves about the Drow of Mir (actually betraying them, since the Drow were on the 'good' side at that point). The Elves of Tethir (Wealdath) and Shilmista then sneak-attacked the Drow and destroyed Allsihwann (I believe with the help of Tethyr, who knew where to find the Drow).
So the Drow didn't work with the Elves like I thought - they worked with Tethyr, who later worked with the Elves. If anything, the Drow may have worked with the Dwarves, who were part of the original alliance against the Beholders, but I think I'm getting two different wars agiianst the Beholders mixed up, and it was two completely different eras (I figured that because the Drow of Mir are occupying caverns that were once part of Clan Velm's lands, of Deep Shanatar, so obviously the Dwarves were long gone by the time the Drow showed up).
I'm now going to have to pick through the timelines to find the exact entry about that battle, in which the Beholder forces were trying to sneak-attack Calimshan through the Forest of Mir, and the Drow and Aranea (and Claimshan) repelled them together.
Maybe Steven will come along and bail me out here - I'll have to go through three different sourcebooks to find that.
At least they are great sources and worth another look. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Jun 2008 21:20:41 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2008 : 01:47:45
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| I have all these sources and never read what you stated above ... though the sources might intimate such alliances. Of course, I was far more interested about the warpony remark :). |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Peace between Dalesmen and Drow of House Jaelre?
