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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 24 May 2005 : 16:05:54
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Its an interesting idea, but you seem more concerned that NE Vhaerun worshipping Jaelre drow will be taken advantage of by unscrupulous humans an elves. Vhaerun's worship may allow for them to intermarry with surface elves, but the point of their return to the surface is to rule. Vhaerun hates Corellon as much as his mother does, and their rejoining of the surface elves is to be from a position of power and advantage.
Also, a lot of this depends of what kind of treaty you are talking about. A short term non aggression pact with information sharing about the Cult of the Dragon will make sense. A mutual assault on various strongholds might be a little more iffy, since the second the Cult stronghold falls the Vhaerunians might turn on their elven and human allies. Keep in mind a neutral elf or human might turn on the Vhaerunians, but a good aligned character is going to try to keep their word and let the Jaelre go in peace according to their agreements.
Long term treaties seem very unlikely. Remember that humans are only allowed in the woods becuase of the Dalelands Pact, and even if the humans are okay with it, the elves are going to be a harder sell. A treaty that gives them land, trade rights, etc. seem to be a streach. Are the Jaelre going to start farming or ranching, or trapping and hunting to support themselves and trade with their neighbors. Farming, hunting, and trapping doesn't exactly fit in with Vhaerun's tenants. Yes, Vhaerun may want them to return to the surface, but he is a god of theives and intrigue, and unless all of this involves a double cross it seems very unlikely.
Of course another short term treaty might simply allow the Jaelre to keep an item that they have found in a particular ruin, or they may be allowed to pass through unmolested from point A to point B.
I guess my point would be that while a short term or limited treaty might come about, a long term treaty isn't going to be offered until the drow have been observed to have kept other shorter term treaties, and since the elves are involved, such an observation might take place over a century.
All of this assumes that you want to keep the Jaelre on the path that the FRCS and the limited appearance in the WOTSQ novels seem to set them on. If Jaelre is more "we just want a homeland of our own" in your campaign, then of course, its all up in the air. But either they will be incorporating other deities beyond Vhearun soon, or Vhearun himself is going to change a bit in your campaign.
I'll be interested in seeing how this plays out in your campaign. Please keep up all posted. |
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Arravis
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 16:15:26
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I've not read the WOTSQ novels, how are they presented in there?
As far as what they are like, well, I do try to do them as per Lords of Darkness and the FRCS. What they say their intentions are (we just want a homeland), and what their real intentions are (a bit more then that) are different.
I definately agree with the treaties will start with very short term cease-fires and work up from there. |
Edited by - Arravis on 24 May 2005 16:17:58 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 16:19:25
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| Jaelre is only there briefly, but the implication is that they have been planning on taking over Myth Drannor for a long time, as soon as they caught wind that the elves might go into Retreat. Basically they didn't leave the Underdark becuase they were looking for a homeland, they were specifically looking for power to give males and Vhearun over the drow race. |
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Arravis
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 16:28:24
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| Sounds similar very much in line with what I've been DM'ng them like so far. But, House Jaelre, like any large organization, is a complex structure that rarely does things for merely one reason. Yes, they wish the power of the ancient elven mythals and the magics within, but Vhaerun also dictates that they have surface communities, unify with the surface elves, etc. So, I don't think they simply came to the surface for power... but to meet those goals as well. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 16:31:49
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| It may just be a matter of semantics, but I would say "dominate" rather than "unite" in regards to the surface elves. Yes, they can bring them into their community and intermarry, but the point is that they are still to be in command. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 17:05:41
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Elves are superior to all other races and should dominate those other races. Drow being the best type of elf of course should provide leadership of the united elven races.
"Yet. Vhaerun wishes to re-unite the elven people. He considers all elves to be superior to all other races, however, and wishes only to have elves dominate all other races. Vhaerun's loyalty is to all elves, but primarily the drow race. He would like to see the surface elves serving as the enforcers of the "true masters", the drow, who would rule from the depths of the earth."
Not sure about the last of the quote, however light blindness certainly can explain wanting to maintain an underdark presense.
Unite and lead, might be better then dominate the surface elves, but all in all in some ways dominate might occur on a case by case basics. There is no indication of trying to use fear or other represive means. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 17:31:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
I wish to understand the arguement being made...
Because the elves and the Dalesmen fear that the drow will betray the peace treaty and get back to killing and raiding, they won't agree to a peace treaty, so they want the drow to continue as they are now, killing and raiding?
Right now they have the very thing they fear, why would they wish to continue it? It just doesn't make any sense to me, perhaps I'm missing something.
It's not that they're expecting to continue it if they don't sign a treaty, it's that they'd expect it to continue, regardless of a treaty.
What doesn't make sense is that knowing what they know about drow, that the humans would trust them.
quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
Let's assume that House Jaelre will only do this to gain an advantage (why does anyone ever agree to any kind of treaty, if not to gain an advantage?). Won't the Dalesmen and the elves use the peace time to gain just as much of an advantage (or even more, as some posters have implied)? All sides must know that any treaty is for each group's advantage, and each group will do just that... take advantage on it. The drow will strengthen their defensive positions, the Dalesmen will train more armsmen, and the elves will shore up their borders. Everyone uses the time to their advantage... as everyone knew they would. If House Jaelre attacks, then the elves and the Dalesmen are ready for them (and probably more unified due to the treaty). If House Jaelre does not attack, then all the better for everyone involved. There is only benefit to all the groups involved, regardless of future attacks.
But if there is not already open warfare, then everyone already has the time to prepare. They don't need a treaty for that.
And if one side was planning on attacking the other, it'd be pretty silly to wait until treaty expired - because that's when the other side would expect to be attacked.
quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
1) House Jaelre and worshipers of Vhaerun drow are unlike any other drow. You can't use the same ideas of behavior on them as you do for other drow. They want to form permanent surface communities. They want to reunite with their surface elven kin, standing together as a whole. This even goes as far as intermarrying with the other elves (which is encouraged). They actively hunt Lolth worshipers, something that would work well with the elves and the Dalesmen. Lastly, their main goal is simply to survive. So, I think the assumption of them wanting to crush everyone else for their own goals does not fit House Jaelre, their very goals show that.
But how do the Dalesmen know this? To them, all drow are a bunch of murderous gits. Humans don't know enough about drow culture to know that there might be a faction or two that won't slit their throats in the night.
quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
2) The Dalesmen (and less so the elves) won't actually be very knowledgable at all of drow behavior and traits. They'll know a very basic reputation from old and very varied tales on the drow. They'll know them much more as aggressive raiders, not as traitors (what deals have the drow broken with any of them in the last millenia?). How would the surface peoples know of Lolth worshiping drow's "ways of intruige and political manuevering"? It's not like they've had any experience with them beyond they being simple aggressors.
And not having any experience with drow beyond that of drow being aggressive and un-neighborly, why are the humans suddenly supposed to trust them? Does Aglarond trust the Red Wizards? Does Shadowdale trust the Zhents?
quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
3) People keep mentioning that trust is required for a treaty... why? Show me a single treaty in our history, between two warring nations, that's based on trust.
Treaties are agreements. Unless you are coerced, then you would not enter into an agreement with someone you didn't think would keep it.
quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
Just seems to me that many of you wish to treat the House Jaelre drow just as if they were exactly like the Lolth worshiping drow. As written in the official FR sourcebooks, they are quite different.
Yes, but Dalesmen don't read official FR sourcebooks. They know legends and the tales of bards. These things tell them that the drow are a bloodthirsty and murderous bunch, and their own experience backs it up.
Just because this one small group isn't quite the same as the other drow, that doesn't mean people are going to be tripping over themselves to trust them. House Jaerle, if they want a peace treaty, are going to have to earn the trust of the elves and the dalesmen before anyone will agree to meet with them. |
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Arravis
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 17:44:45
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| I don't see why trust enters into it at all, I don't see how that is the crux of the arguement. Name me one historical treaty that relied on trust. If people trusted each other, they wouldn't need treaties. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 18:01:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
I don't see why trust enters into it at all, I don't see how that is the crux of the arguement. Name me one historical treaty that relied on trust. If people trusted each other, they wouldn't need treaties.
Treaties are agreements between two (or more) sides that list actions that each participate will do or will refrain from doing. Trust is required for treaties, because if you don't expect the other side to keep their end of the bargain, then you are not going to feel obligated to keep your end.
Treaties are simply formalized agreements. You would not enter into an agreement with someone if you didn't trust them to adhere to it. Therefore, trust is an integral part of a treaty. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 18:36:11
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Treaties are not always based on trust as a prime factor. They often are delaying tactics. World War II Russia/Germany non-agression pack was a delaying tactic. The two goverments had fundimental differences. Capitialism vs. Socialism. Of course both sides agreed to split Poland between them as well which was the short term pay off.
As far as history goes, it is hard to know what the Elves and Dalesmen are telling thier children, however the histroy we know does indicate that some Drow indeed did live in peace.
As far as no war, there are reports of raids and killing, that House Jaelre have been conducting as a diversion from occupation of some empty Elven cities. Both sides will be losing forces in such raids, though if successful Lolthians are getting blamed for these. Such deception will not last. It would be better to cut down on raids and loses by making dealings more open. Trade, an occasional theft or assasination will achieve as much. Right now the war is skirmishes because niether side seeks all out war.
The elves and Dalesmen could very well believe the Lolthians are the foe, where as Jaelre is the problem. The Drow have the advantage in that most of the raids can be stopped with just a word, though there would be acts to explain tis. Drow patrols though out the region, a greater restoration of civility would bring rewards. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 21:01:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think there's even an informal agreement... It's more a case of the neighbors aren't the sort to attack, and the Zhents and Red Wizards aren't always attacking -- sometimes they have other concerns, sometimes they're trying something else.
Actually, the Zulkirs offered a truce with Aglarond, which the Simbul accepted, and the Blackstaff has an "agreement" with Fzoul. I doubt that there is any trust involved in either of these arangements, but they exist nonetheless. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 21:04:38
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I guess that would depend on how you define treaty. I was thinking of more formal, you do this, I do that, I get to stay in this land, you don't patrol that area.
A general cessation of hostilities, while it may be treatied, didn't even occur to me when I was thinking of this particular thread. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 22:59:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think there's even an informal agreement... It's more a case of the neighbors aren't the sort to attack, and the Zhents and Red Wizards aren't always attacking -- sometimes they have other concerns, sometimes they're trying something else.
Actually, the Zulkirs offered a truce with Aglarond, which the Simbul accepted, and the Blackstaff has an "agreement" with Fzoul. I doubt that there is any trust involved in either of these arangements, but they exist nonetheless.
I could've sworn the Simbul turned them down...
And the Fzoul/Blackstaff comment is not a good example. The Zhents aren't constantly attacking Waterdeep, and Fzoul has, for the most part, been sticking with the agreement. If Khelben hadn't trusted Fzoul to stick to the agreement, he'd not have made it.
I really, really don't understand how anyone can think an agreement can exist without trust... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 23:12:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Treaties are not always based on trust as a prime factor. They often are delaying tactics. World War II Russia/Germany non-agression pack was a delaying tactic. The two goverments had fundimental differences. Capitialism vs. Socialism. Of course both sides agreed to split Poland between them as well which was the short term pay off.
It may have been a delaying tactic, but it was obviously based on the fact that each side trusted the other side to not attack each other, or at least not attack before a given time.
If the Russians had thought the Germans were going to immediately attack, then they wouldn't have signed an agreement -- it's as simple as that.
People do not willingly enter into agreements when they expect to get stabbed in the back. Why is this not clear?
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
As far as history goes, it is hard to know what the Elves and Dalesmen are telling thier children, however the histroy we know does indicate that some Drow indeed did live in peace.
Yes, some drow -- a very unusual minority. The majority, however, would not be trusted, because of the tales of their atrocities and the legends of their cruelty. Distrust of drow is Realms-wide. And there is a lot more history supporting this than there is in support of non-hostile drow.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
As far as no war, there are reports of raids and killing, that House Jaelre have been conducting as a diversion from occupation of some empty Elven cities. Both sides will be losing forces in such raids, though if successful Lolthians are getting blamed for these. Such deception will not last. It would be better to cut down on raids and loses by making dealings more open. Trade, an occasional theft or assasination will achieve as much. Right now the war is skirmishes because niether side seeks all out war.
So hostilies exist, and blood has been shed. And you expect everyone to believe those with blood on their hands when they say that want peace?
If they wanted peace, why were they killing elves and Dalesmen in the first place?
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
The elves and Dalesmen could very well believe the Lolthians are the foe, where as Jaelre is the problem. The Drow have the advantage in that most of the raids can be stopped with just a word, though there would be acts to explain tis. Drow patrols though out the region, a greater restoration of civility would bring rewards.
Yes, a restoration of civility would benefit everyone. I have not argued this point. The point I'm arguing is that no one is going to believe a group with a long racial and personal history of violence and bloodshed against innocents, when they say they want peace and a cessation of the bloodshed that they themselves are behind. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 23:17:01
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I think the break down in the terms has to do with how we are all viewing and defining a few terms. I don't think that when some of us use the term "trust" we mean . . . "I think they are good or neutral drow now" or "I think they have started moving toward neutrality."
By trust I think we mean, you have to know that they have more to loose by breaking the agreement than by keeping it. Trust in this case would mean "I know what their angle is going into this agreement."
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 23:23:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I really, really don't understand how anyone can think an agreement can exist without trust...
Well in real life agreements have been made with powers not trusted and both sides expected the other side to cheat one way or another.
Though a comment on TV I just heard might best apply.
"This is a truce, not a treaty"
The first steps would be small, though even a truce is a kind of a treaty the first step to full peace or just a time to delay all out war.
In the situation presented in the game world (which does not always model the real world) there are Drow, Elves and Dalesmen killing each other (not counting the other races). It is not all out warfare at this time but all sides are taking loses. There are reasons for all sides to reduce their loses and look for profit in other ways. Each of course do have long range goals that are not compatible, so it is we will not fight, today and maybe not tomorrow.
There certainly appears to be many such truces thoughout the realms considering how many races hate each other and want to wipe them out. Can some Drow be trusted, certainly. There is a history of this ocuring. Can all of any of the three groups be trusted, of course not. However if each group works to take out all offenders of their race it can reduce reprisal raids and slow the building war. Prehaps in the end a full peace can be achieved, though I would not count on this. *wink* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 23:59:34
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
By trust I think we mean, you have to know that they have more to loose by breaking the agreement than by keeping it. Trust in this case would mean "I know what their angle is going into this agreement."
It doesn't matter if the drow would lose more by breaking any agreements. They do that, anyway. The drow would gain great profit if they as a race united, but they can't even get a city to unite. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 00:06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
The first steps would be small, though even a truce is a kind of a treaty the first step to full peace or just a time to delay all out war.
And what is a truce? An agreement to cease hostilities, at least on a temporary basis. Both sides agreeing to a truce have to trust that the other side will not attack.
One of the sides in this scenario has a history of attacking for the sake of doing so. So who's going to expect them to stick to this truce?
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
In the situation presented in the game world (which does not always model the real world) there are Drow, Elves and Dalesmen killing each other (not counting the other races). It is not all out warfare at this time but all sides are taking loses. There are reasons for all sides to reduce their loses and look for profit in other ways. Each of course do have long range goals that are not compatible, so it is we will not fight, today and maybe not tomorrow.
Profit is not always a motivating factor for drow. This is a race that has been known to slaughter someone just for being there. They could've had a profitable trade alliance, and both sides could have gained a lot... But instead, the drow attacked because the majority of them are a bloodthirsty bunch.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
There certainly appears to be many such truces thoughout the realms considering how many races hate each other and want to wipe them out. Can some Drow be trusted, certainly. There is a history of this ocuring. Can all of any of the three groups be trusted, of course not. However if each group works to take out all offenders of their race it can reduce reprisal raids and slow the building war. Prehaps in the end a full peace can be achieved, though I would not count on this. *wink*
But how many times has someone made a truce with someone they expected to betray it? How many times has someone made a truce not just with someone they hate, but with someone they hate, fear, and who has a history of senseless violence? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 00:46:11
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All Drow are not the same, though elves wish them to be, they the hardest to make a deal with.
The Harpers to some small degree spread the story _If you need help, ask the Drow_ There certainlly other other incidents though out the realms of Drow aiding other races.
House Jaelre has a major purpose in earning trust for long term plans. It is hard to lead people that do not trust you, short of Domination (Which is not Vhaeraun's dogma). They can earn trust by reducing raids and stoping the inter racial wars. They will be as quick as many to say most Drow can not be trusted. There though are those that seek peace with the surface, both children of Lolth seek this (just on different terms). The power base is there that it appears the Dalesmen and Elfs can not get rid of (of course can blane designers for this).
There are all the makings of a political solution.
As for Drow not caring about wealth, this is error, wealth is one factor of rank. The more a Drow owns the more respect and power one has. The trading groups are one way to gain a great degree of respectiblity.
Yes there are problems that might imped peace, those occassional assassinations for example. However over all the Drow certainly can take the long view with the dalesmen. A 100 year plan out lasts the ones that made the agreement. The Elves of course short time is harder to get past past and current deals, they however can be slowly brougt into the fold by House Jaelre offering protection, perhaps even marring into the families. Perhaps a mere 300 years would allow for aceptance , but that only 1/3 of the life of a Drow.
It can work, depending on how well the plan is adhered to. Will it work depends on events as they unfold.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 01:22:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
All Drow are not the same, though elves wish them to be, they the hardest to make a deal with.
*sigh* I know this. I had admitted to this point.
However, the vast majority of drow are the type who will cut you down for being there. It is this vast majority that people in the Realms know about. Everyone in the Realms -- not just the Heartlands -- has heard tales of dark elven atrocities. Very few have heard tales of drow that aren't vicious murderers.
Therefore, the average human -- particularly in the Dales, where they've been attacked by drow -- is going to think that all drow are thoroughly and unrepentantly evil. And thus, they will not trust them.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
The Harpers to some small degree spread the story _If you need help, ask the Drow_ There certainlly other other incidents though out the realms of Drow aiding other races.
Yes, there are isolated instances, such as that one group of drow near Skullport. However, even in Skullport, there are the kinds of drow that everyone expects to encounter: those who embrace their vicious ways and glorify in them.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
House Jaelre has a major purpose in earning trust for long term plans. It is hard to lead people that do not trust you, short of Domination (Which is not Vhaeraun's dogma). They can earn trust by reducing raids and stoping the inter racial wars. They will be as quick as many to say most Drow can not be trusted. There though are those that seek peace with the surface, both children of Lolth seek this (just on different terms). The power base is there that it appears the Dalesmen and Elfs can not get rid of (of course can blane designers for this).
It doesn't matter what House Jaerle wants -- they've got to overcome centuries, even millenia, of distrust. If they stop raiding, people aren't going to assume that they want peace -- there's nothing in their lore about drow that would suggest that. They are instead going to be waiting for the springing of the next plot.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
There are all the makings of a political solution.
Except for the fact that one of the parties wouldn't be trusted by the other two...
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
As for Drow not caring about wealth, this is error, wealth is one factor of rank. The more a Drow owns the more respect and power one has. The trading groups are one way to gain a great degree of respectiblity.
That wasn't what I was referring to. I was referring to the fact that a drow will happily cut down a potential rival, even if that person could easily be a valuable ally in the future. There's a lot the drow could do that would be of profit to the entire race, but they are too busy striving against each other to do something like that.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Yes there are problems that might imped peace, those occassional assassinations for example. However over all the Drow certainly can take the long view with the dalesmen. A 100 year plan out lasts the ones that made the agreement. The Elves of course short time is harder to get past past and current deals, they however can be slowly brougt into the fold by House Jaelre offering protection, perhaps even marring into the families. Perhaps a mere 300 years would allow for aceptance , but that only 1/3 of the life of a Drow.
Since when have we seen the drow be willing to do that?
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
It can work, depending on how well the plan is adhered to. Will it work depends on events as they unfold.
I can't see a plan working when that plan depends on trusting someone who isn't regarded as trustworthy...
Fact: for thousands of years, the majority of drow have wantonly and maliciously murdered or attacked anyone who caught their attention.
Fact: Dalesmen and elves have been victims of drow attacks.
Fact: House Jaerle consists of drow.
With those three facts known to the Dalesmen and elves, what makes you think they would expect anything less than the same kind of behaviour from House Jaerle? |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 02:05:09
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| I agree with Wooly about the Dalesmen and the drow of House Jaelre not being able to work together. They have a way different agenda, and especially after looking at their entry in LoD, House Jaelre doesn't want to make alliance, they want to dominate. |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2005 : 04:52:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't think there's even an informal agreement... It's more a case of the neighbors aren't the sort to attack, and the Zhents and Red Wizards aren't always attacking -- sometimes they have other concerns, sometimes they're trying something else.
Actually, the Zulkirs offered a truce with Aglarond, which the Simbul accepted, and the Blackstaff has an "agreement" with Fzoul. I doubt that there is any trust involved in either of these arangements, but they exist nonetheless.
I could've sworn the Simbul turned them down...
And the Fzoul/Blackstaff comment is not a good example. The Zhents aren't constantly attacking Waterdeep, and Fzoul has, for the most part, been sticking with the agreement. If Khelben hadn't trusted Fzoul to stick to the agreement, he'd not have made it.
I really, really don't understand how anyone can think an agreement can exist without trust...
I definitely see your point, but there is a difference between trusting a person or group and trusting them to stick to an agreement that is mutually beneficial. For what it's worth, I wholeheartedly agree with you that it would be a fool's errand to enter into any agreement with drow. An ingrained part of drow culture as we know it is to make agreements just to break them. |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 07:15:39
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As a political science major, I have to admit I find this topic thoroughly entertaining...
On the matter of treaties,the only trust necessary is the trust that the other party will act rationally, not that they are otherwise trustworthy. Even then, you are gambling that what they believe is rational regarding their interests and goals corresponds with what you would believe is rational if you were in their position and had identical goals and interests. And this is if you are negotiating in "good faith", which rarely happens between warring parties...yada, yada, yada, it would take at least ten pages to finish my self-indulgent and pretentious lecture on this crap.
Anyway, anything short of a short-term ceasefire brought about by desperation is unlikely in the extreme because the Drow would not be percieved as rational actors, even though the Vhaerunian drow probably ARE rational actors. |
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Arravis
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 16:15:14
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Lowtech, thanks for the great explanation of trust in regards to a treaty.
Anyway, my understanding is that the PC's plan on supplying the House Jaelre drow for a while so that the raids can cease and they can attempt to broker some kind of deal.
I can understand the NPC's of the campaign thinking so, but I don't see drow as being inherently irrational like so many posters seem to. Nothing I've read seems to imply that. "Classic" drow are self-serving and have no regards for others, but their actions have never come across as irrational. This would be even less so for the drow of House Jaelre. Anyway, I don't know how the impression of drow as mindless screaming madmen has been formed, but I just don't see it. |
Edited by - Arravis on 27 May 2005 16:19:51 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 17:00:53
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Drow have an irrational Goddess for the most part.
Drow societies are very stuctured including the ways to get promoted. Sometimes just skill but just as often assasination or other wise discrediting a superior.
Such actions take planing and much planing, certainly rational actions.
The way Drow society looks to outsiders in will be seen as irrational. Killing each other does not appear to be a rational way to preserve and expand a society.
Drow by nature are very much about what is best for me. They however are trained to work in groups and know the value of co-operation. The Drow do not fight not retreat in unorgainise (iirational) manner.
Oh the prinsonors they take are not treated rationally by other society's standards. The captives however are taken for set and rational reasons, slaves to do work and sacafices to Lolth.
Yes it is true that Drow do have a repertation of making a deal, only to break it when greater benefit derives from breaking the deal. This is not irrational either just cut thoat business practices. With most Drow not only the deal gets cut a few thoats might as well.
A deal will not be broke that will put Drow in a wrost position. Their survial relies on always making and keeping the best deal they have. All that others need to do is make sure a better deal is not offered.
Jaelre oposes Lolthians, as do Dalesmen and the surface elvs. They also have a common enemy in the Cult of the Dragon. So niether of these will offer a better deal.
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"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 23:10:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Jaelre oposes Lolthians, as do Dalesmen and the surface elvs. They also have a common enemy in the Cult of the Dragon. So niether of these will offer a better deal.
The problem is, to a Daleman or elf, a drow is a drow. House Jaelre can claim all day long that they're not the same as Lolth-worshipping drow, but until they can, over a long term, prove that they are not the same breed, they are going to be considered to be just the same as the other drow. That's why I don't see this happening. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 23:12:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
I can understand the NPC's of the campaign thinking so, but I don't see drow as being inherently irrational like so many posters seem to.
I never said that drow were inherently irrational. But to elves or humans, who have different ways of thinking, many drow actions are irrational. |
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 27 May 2005 : 23:49:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
I can understand the NPC's of the campaign thinking so, but I don't see drow as being inherently irrational like so many posters seem to.
I never said that drow were inherently irrational. But to elves or humans, who have different ways of thinking, many drow actions are irrational.
Not irrational even to us humans. Just twisted and evil. A drow's skin reflects the taint of his soul. All of thier actions make perfect sense and are emminently predictable when taken in this light.
Even a good drow has a great deal of difficulty dealing with surface people. Look at the paragon of good drow Drizzt and his issues with understanding the surface world.
Can you imagine trying to live in the dark ages after having lived now? Try to communicate with these people and discuss things like freedom of religion, democracy, equal rights, free trade...
Two different worlds. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 01:25:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Fletcher
Even a good drow has a great deal of difficulty dealing with surface people. Look at the paragon of good drow Drizzt and his issues with understanding the surface world.
I ignore Drizzt as an example of a good Drow. I look to other examples and the dogma of good Drow. quote:
Can you imagine trying to live in the dark ages after having lived now? Try to communicate with these people and discuss things like freedom of religion, democracy, equal rights, free trade...
Two different worlds.
Well living in the Dark ages actions servered far greater then words in many cases. If a good witch it was not nearly as bad as being acused of being a bad witch. The situations were local for the most part, there was no mass comunication. One knew what was said and done localy for the most part.
The history clearly indicates that Drow did live in the area in the past and defended all. That many, and stories of many, are the same as stories of Zues throwing thunder bolts (Some will believe and some will not).
In the end it comes down to DM call as even Ed of Greenwood offers a starting platform and appears to believe that DMs should expand from that base lore. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 28 May 2005 : 03:47:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Jaelre oposes Lolthians, as do Dalesmen and the surface elvs. They also have a common enemy in the Cult of the Dragon. So niether of these will offer a better deal.
The problem is, to a Daleman or elf, a drow is a drow. House Jaelre can claim all day long that they're not the same as Lolth-worshipping drow, but until they can, over a long term, prove that they are not the same breed, they are going to be considered to be just the same as the other drow. That's why I don't see this happening.
And again, like before, I have to agree with Wooly.
Racial mindsets are always going to play a significant role in inter-species relations. Quite literally, the drow will have to fight against their own history in order to prove their committment to any treaty or pact. And that, is a hard battle indeed...
We've seen that most races hold rigid racial models or mindset for every other race -- the elves are no exception. So, until any one of these models are actually shown to be false, to any degree, each race will continue to have faith in what they believe and what they have learned about every race in the past.
It is comfortable, and it provides them with a sense of security.
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Edited by - The Sage on 28 May 2005 03:50:33 |
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Peace between Dalesmen and Drow of House Jaelre?
