| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Arravis
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
 Posted - 23 May 2005 : 16:32:53
|
In my campaign, the party has some influential contacts within several Dales communities, the remaining elves of the Cormanthor, and the drow of House Jaelre (both having a common enemy in a rather aggressive cell of the Cult of the Dragon). The PC's are thinking of perhaps brokering some kind of peace deal between drow of House Jaelre and the communities of the dales and the Cormanthor.
Anyway, I wanted to know everyone's idea of this rather novel and interesting concept.
|
|
|
Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 16:36:30
|
| I like it. House Jaelre seems to be of the sensible sort, as drow go, and they remain a favorite of mine. Much more interesting than other drow IMO. |
 |
|
|
Arravis
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 16:55:35
|
As a DM, it would seem to me that Jaelre's main worry is that some unscrupulous humans or elves would take advantage of the situation. The moment it's to their advantage to blame House Jaelre (due to encomics, trade, etc), they'll be betrayed. They might be blamed for the actions of another group of drow, or just when anything bad happens (Farmer Ted's cow died) they'll be assumed to be the culprits.
Btw, I do agree that they would be open to the idea, but issues like the one above would have to be worked out. |
Edited by - Arravis on 23 May 2005 16:56:12 |
|
|
|
Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 17:11:59
|
I also think that House Jaelre is a more reasonable drow house. But I would bring up that it is a drow house. Though they may have truly progressive individuals, they are still drow, with some of the drow outlook on how things should work. Like the whole concept of “We should rule and all others should serve us.” Or the “We are cooler than you.”
But because they are long lived, I would see them putting this into place as a necessary alliance in getting rid of a more immediate problem. They should how ever have some long term goals, for the next couple of decades, to assert their power and control over the region. Even if the control they exert is just localized at first.
Personally I would fill the whole twenty or thirty years with a bunch of foreshadowing, threatening dire things to come. But the players are constantly offered obvious signs of how the drow are helping out the local areas.
Patrols to eliminate banditry and wandering monsters.
Aid in reconstruction after damaging storms or fires.
Profitable trade treaties.
Peace treaties.
Cooperative defense pacts.
Loans from wealthy drow at low interest rates.
Drow in local schools.
Drow accepting the verbal assaults of the ignorant with calm understanding and pity, and not beating/killing the offensive humans.
Drow opening up shops.
Drow farming.
Drow in local militias doing night patrols…
Even a small surface Drow town. Though it would probably creep the PC’s out by how deserted the town is during the day.
Just a few thoughts.
|
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
|
|
|
Arravis
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 17:19:41
|
Fletcher in general I agree, the fact that they are in essense... self serving drow goes unmentioned. I never claimed that House Jaelre would be doing this for any kind of altruistic reasons. They, like any real government or organization, will do it for their own purposes and needs. How long it takes before those needs conflict with the needs of those you're allied with, is a different issue. Any kind of deal like this has little to do with morality and more to do with needs, resources, etc.
The issue at hand is if the groups involved could come to some sort near future deal (ie next 1-5 years) to accomidate each other and what would such a deal include?
What would House Jaelre need from the elves and the dalesmen?
What would the Dalesmen need from House Jaelre?
What would the elves need from House Jaelre? |
Edited by - Arravis on 23 May 2005 17:24:20 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 17:33:36
|
Another issue: why are people going to trust these drow? Everyone has heard tales of drow atrocities and how evil the race is...
It's going to take a long time and an uphill battle for the drow to earn the trust of their neighbors. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 18:10:05
|
Well Drow might not be easy to trust, however with between 8 to 12 thousand members of the House reported to live in the Dales a truce is more pratical then a war. Also apparently most of the Lolthians have been killed or driven out, which should reduce the number of Drow surface raids of distustion and taking of slaves and sacifices.
These Drow have brought some more security to the Dales.
As for Drow villages, towns being empty during the day this is unlikely. The 3.x rules for light blindness only makes it a minor problem that lasts a short time. Also such towns would have hired races to the proper work. I do not believe that there would be many slaves, however can not find Vhaeraun's position on this in dogma. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Arravis
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 18:15:48
|
I agree that trust is not the main issue. Historically, most peace treaties aren't about trust, since neither nation trusts each other (if they had, they wouldn't have gone to war). Peace tends to be brokered over the needs of each group and how it can help the other, be it people (you might want to stop loosing them in battle), food, gold, etc. If a group has no resources to offer, peace isn't needed since that group lacks the resources to actually wage a long term war.
The leaders of each of these groups has to decide what's best for their people. Sure, you might not trust the drow, but their constant attacks aren't exactly helping you. |
Edited by - Arravis on 23 May 2005 18:23:10 |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 18:36:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
The issue at hand is if the groups involved could come to some sort near future deal (ie next 1-5 years) to accomidate each other and what would such a deal include?
What would House Jaelre need from the elves and the dalesmen?
To seek and control the region would be the goal. One way to do this is slowly rise to leadership positions. The others then becoming extensions of House Jaelre. While Drow are the superior race, Vhaeraun does teach acceptance of other races in their proper position.
quote:
What would the Dalesmen need from House Jaelre?
What would the elves need from House Jaelre?
Well both groups certainly are advantaged by the reduction of Lolthians.
Dalesmen certainly can profit from Drow providing night guards, the elves to a lessor degree as well (the darker/darkest nights when low-light vision is of no use).
The elves also can profit from the truth of goof Drow, followers of Eilistraee, being calles a lie and a trick of Lolth.
How it will play out is hard to say, however I would suspect that House Jaelre would seek to kill the prestesses of Eilistraee as quickly as one of Lolth. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Arravis
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 19:29:40
|
If the elves of the Cormanthor (Tangle Trees, etc) do come to some sort of peace accord... that would be a massive thing. I don't know if such a thing has ever really happened in FR history. Is such a thing really possible? The elves' hatred of the drow is so unrelenting, it might not be something that can be overcome as a group.
I could see the human dalesmen easily coming to an agreement with House Jaelre, but the elves might be another thing altogether. What kind of event or demands would the elves make to be part of such a peace treaty? |
Edited by - Arravis on 23 May 2005 19:31:54 |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 19:44:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
If the elves of the Cormanthor (Tangle Trees, etc) do come to some sort of peace accord... that would be a massive thing. I don't know if such a thing has ever really happened in FR history. Is such a thing really possible? The elves' hatred of the drow is so unrelenting, it might not be something that can be overcome as a group.
Well some surface elves already follow a Drow deity, however as a group mass aceptance as a group I do not see that happening at all. However I can see a political truce existing to keep the Lolthians out. quote:
I could see the human dalesmen easily coming to an agreement with House Jaelre, but the elves might be another thing altogether. What kind of event or demands would the elves make to be part of such a peace treaty?
I would see the elves setting specific dead lines, rules that would break the treaty. Some of the deadlines would be land boundries that can not be crossed unless properly escorted. Others would be unaceptible conduct toward the fair folk, such rules might include interbreeding, infiltation of elven organizations. There also might be a requirement of information.
The elves would use the Drow as a shield against other Drow (some more deadly and some more acepting). The elves might also look to trade advantage of some kind. Oh the elves certainly will not speak well any Drow, just that these Drow appear to be serving a greater good right now. Also the elves might try to get House Jaelre to expend itself against others Drow, "The only good Drow is a dead one" if can keep Drow killing each other and stop Drow raids against the elves a temporary truce certainly could be worked out. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Arravis
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 19:53:14
|
Good point Kentinal.
Once lound bounderies are discussed, I'm sure the elves will bring up the issue of Elven Court. I don't believe any of the elves are actually aware of House Jaelre's plans for the location. I don't see Jaelre giving up the place though, in the end, their long-term success in the area relies on it. Once the mythal defenses are usable by the drow, it gives Jaelre a truly defensible base of operations. Every nation/group needs a place that they can feel truly safe in, and I don't see House Jaelre giving it up. I also don't see the elves giving up an ancestral holy site once chosen by Corellon Larethian himself (if I recall correctly). This brings up a tough issue for both groups. |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 20:19:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
Good point Kentinal.
Once lound bounderies are discussed, I'm sure the elves will bring up the issue of Elven Court. I don't believe any of the elves are actually aware of House Jaelre's plans for the location. I don't see Jaelre giving up the place though, in the end, their long-term success in the area relies on it. Once the mythal defenses are usable by the drow, it gives Jaelre a truly defensible base of operations. Every nation/group needs a place that they can feel truly safe in, and I don't see House Jaelre giving it up. I also don't see the elves giving up an ancestral holy site once chosen by Corellon Larethian himself (if I recall correctly). This brings up a tough issue for both groups.
What Jaelre already holds it will keep, or perhaps even give up some non critical lands. The Elves if they could have would have killed every Drow. The fact that they did not do so taking the short view let the lessor evil control some lands and fight the greater evil. The long view is with luck the Drow will kill each other or even not, the elves will be able to increase their own power to kill all Drow. The surface elves face the basic problem of replacement of dead (the low breeding rate, compared to Drow) so a deal that keeps them living longer the better.
Certainly at some point in time Jaelre will request greater access to the Elven Court or take it. In this case the truce is a bargin not to fight now in order to be in a better position to fight and win later.
Jaelre doing all out war on the Elves would also pit them against the Dalesmen. For House Jaelre time can be the advantage, the Dalesmen in time can be controled by Jaelre.
The elves in time migh be powerful enough to expell all Drow.
Both sides should look at both long range and short range goals.
How you might be able to use my ideas is up to you, sooner or later the current truce (if made) will be broken. Both sides shold know this , right not both are trying to buy time in order to increase their power base. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 21:06:10
|
Where can I find information about house Jaelre, since I didn`t even know they existed until I read WOTSQ.(preferably free information please, I`m broke ) One of the drawbacks of being a teenager and having to depend on your mom for money |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 21:09:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
Where can I find information about house Jaelre, since I didn`t even know they existed until I read WOTSQ.(preferably free information please, I`m broke) One of the drawbacks of being a teenager and having to depend on your mom for money
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22House+Jaelre%22&hl=en&lr=
is one way to get bits of information. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 22:53:20
|
I still don't see why anyone would want to sign a treaty with the drow... Being at peace with hostile neighbors is a laudable goal, but how many nations have peace treaties with the Zhents or the Red Wizards?
To most people, drow cannot be trusted. It's as simple as that. Any leader who signs a peace treaty with the drow is going to have a lot of people wondering about his sanity for trusting them -- because no matter what the intent of a treaty, if there isn't trust, it's not worth the paper it's printed on. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 23 May 2005 : 23:32:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I still don't see why anyone would want to sign a treaty with the drow... Being at peace with hostile neighbors is a laudable goal, but how many nations have peace treaties with the Zhents or the Red Wizards?
It depends some on how things develope, however it certainly is claer that there is not all out war on the Zhents or the Red Wizards, which indicates if not a formal agreement there is an informal agreement of not using masive attack.
quote:
To most people, drow cannot be trusted. It's as simple as that. Any leader who signs a peace treaty with the drow is going to have a lot of people wondering about his sanity for trusting them -- because no matter what the intent of a treaty, if there isn't trust, it's not worth the paper it's printed on.
Of course most Drow can not be trusted, niether can be most of the Fair Folk which often are also Chaotic in view. Each seeks to buy time in which to gain an advantage. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 00:03:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I still don't see why anyone would want to sign a treaty with the drow... Being at peace with hostile neighbors is a laudable goal, but how many nations have peace treaties with the Zhents or the Red Wizards?
It depends some on how things develope, however it certainly is claer that there is not all out war on the Zhents or the Red Wizards, which indicates if not a formal agreement there is an informal agreement of not using masive attack.
I don't think there's even an informal agreement... It's more a case of the neighbors aren't the sort to attack, and the Zhents and Red Wizards aren't always attacking -- sometimes they have other concerns, sometimes they're trying something else.
A lack of open war is not an indication of any kind of agreement.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
To most people, drow cannot be trusted. It's as simple as that. Any leader who signs a peace treaty with the drow is going to have a lot of people wondering about his sanity for trusting them -- because no matter what the intent of a treaty, if there isn't trust, it's not worth the paper it's printed on.
Of course most Drow can not be trusted, niether can be most of the Fair Folk which often are also Chaotic in view. Each seeks to buy time in which to gain an advantage.
Yeah, but elves aren't known for happily murdering people in their sleep. A treaty between elves and Dalesmen would likely be honored by both sides, and they all know it. Most people -- elven or Dalesfolk -- would half expect a drow ambush at the signing ceremony of a peace treaty.
I don't see anyone trusting the drow unless there was an absolutely dire threat to all of existence -- and maybe not even then, since the drow are also know for being opportunistic.
I'm not trying to rain on your parade or anything. I just can't think up a scenario where the Dalesfolk would want to sign a treaty with the drow. It's about as likely as Sarya Dlardrageth joining the Harpers. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 24 May 2005 00:04:50 |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 01:03:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I still don't see why anyone would want to sign a treaty with the drow... Being at peace with hostile neighbors is a laudable goal, but how many nations have peace treaties with the Zhents or the Red Wizards?
It depends some on how things develope, however it certainly is claer that there is not all out war on the Zhents or the Red Wizards, which indicates if not a formal agreement there is an informal agreement of not using masive attack.
I don't think there's even an informal agreement... It's more a case of the neighbors aren't the sort to attack, and the Zhents and Red Wizards aren't always attacking -- sometimes they have other concerns, sometimes they're trying something else.
A lack of open war is not an indication of any kind of agreement.
When oposing factions that have every reason to fight and do not, there certainly is an implied agreement not to fight, at least today. So yes there is the implied consent to allow each side to deal with other concerns for a time.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
To most people, drow cannot be trusted. It's as simple as that. Any leader who signs a peace treaty with the drow is going to have a lot of people wondering about his sanity for trusting them -- because no matter what the intent of a treaty, if there isn't trust, it's not worth the paper it's printed on.
Of course most Drow can not be trusted, niether can be most of the Fair Folk which often are also Chaotic in view. Each seeks to buy time in which to gain an advantage.
Yeah, but elves aren't known for happily murdering people in their sleep. A treaty between elves and Dalesmen would likely be honored by both sides, and they all know it. Most people -- elven or Dalesfolk -- would half expect a drow ambush at the signing ceremony of a peace treaty.
Err perhaps you missed the one realmslore (I will have to dig for WotC link if needed) that some of the fair folk in revenge for death of parent, has a dwarf captive and cuts off an arm or a leg every 20 years or so (no specfic time was specfied, but credit to a ring of regeneration was praised in that article) and leaves it at the home where the drawf used to live?
quote:
I don't see anyone trusting the drow unless there was an absolutely dire threat to all of existence -- and maybe not even then, since the drow are also know for being opportunistic.
The fact that Drow have been trusted perhaps something you have not seen, however is part of realmslore. Granted only a few have been trusted, however those few have been trusted , fewer lived up to the trust given them.
quote:
I'm not trying to rain on your parade or anything. I just can't think up a scenario where the Dalesfolk would want to sign a treaty with the drow. It's about as likely as Sarya Dlardrageth joining the Harpers.
[/quote]
Not my parade, just trying to provide reasons for a short term agreement to aid Arravis in further campaign ideas. I do not see full trust occuring anytimr soon if at all, I see both sides trying to buy time. War later then now. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 24 May 2005 01:14:22 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 01:27:07
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
When oposing factions that have every reason to fight and do not, there certainly is an implied agreement not to fight, at least today. So yes there is the implied consent to allow each side to deal with other concerns for a time.
No, because in most cases, it's not a decision to let the other side do anything -- it's a decision to take care of yourself, first and foremost. Leaving someone else alone does not, by itself, signify anything.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Err perhaps you missed the one realmslore (I will have to dig for WotC link if needed) that some of the fair folk in revenge for death of parent, has a dwarf captive and cuts off an arm or a leg every 20 years or so (no specfic time was specfied, but credit to a ring of regeneration was praised in that article) and leaves it at the home where the drawf used to live?
I'm not recalling that... But that's an extreme example, and it really has no bearing on this situation. The scenario at hand is forging a peace treaty with a bunch that happily murder each other and anyone else they can get their hands on -- especially the elves that are supposed to be agreeing to this treaty.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
The fact that Drow have been trusted perhaps something you have not seen, however is part of realmslore. Granted only a few have been trusted, however those few have been trusted , fewer lived up to the trust given them.
Exactly! Very few drow have been trusted, and fewer still were worthy of it. So, with that in mind, you think someone will trust them to stick to a treaty?
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Not my parade, just trying to provide reasons for a short term agreement to aid Arravis in further campaign ideas. I do not see full trust occuring anytimr soon if at all, I see both sides trying to buy time. War later then now.
But if open warfare doesn't exist, then they've already got that time to buy. If the drow were planning on going to war, they'd not bother signing a treaty saying they wouldn't -- unless they were going to ambush the signing dignitaries, which would kinda signal their intentions. Otherwise, they'd just quietly bide their time until it was time to attack -- as drow have done countless times. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Prince Forge of Avalon
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 01:58:17
|
I just wanted to give my 2 cents worth of opinion on this subject:
1) I wouldn't see the Dalesmen coming to any agreement or treaty with the Drow, nor would I see the drowing willing to "debase themselves" by signing a treaty unless it invoved some plot to overthrow the local leaders and take power througout the whole area.
2) There' NO WAY the evles will sign a treaty with the Drow unless it's a massive Realms threating event! just IMO.
PFoA |
|
|
|
Arravis
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 02:31:48
|
Some of you are saying that neither the Dalesmen nor the elves would come to some sort of peace treaty with the drow of House Jaelre, but aren't giving any concrete reasons other then "but they're drow!" or "they aren't trustworthy".
Everyday (in the current FR timeline), people in the Dales and the Cormanthor die because of the drow. If the Dalesmen or the elves had any real way of solving this problem, they would have by now. The Dalesmen aren't organized well enough and have never been. The elves are too few in number. Yet, they both loose people every day.
If the drow of House Jaelre approach these groups with peace traties that would stop the killing and the raids, you think they'll turn them down out of hand? The Dales aren't run by paladins, they're run by normal people. People who want to live in peace and prosper more then they want to point moral fingers.
Is it somehow better to keep things as they are? Let the deaths continue? How does that help anyone? It just doesn't make any sense to me.
I don't think that any deals would be easy or be done under a banner of "trust". But all sides benefit from the peace, why would they turn it down? What would they gain from doing so? People want to better their everyday lives, and that would help to better them.
I think the dismissal of a peace treaty between "good" (even though, per the DMG, most people are Neutral, not good) and "evil" powers is naive and unrealistic. |
Edited by - Arravis on 24 May 2005 02:34:42 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 02:32:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But if open warfare doesn't exist, then they've already got that time to buy. If the drow were planning on going to war, they'd not bother signing a treaty saying they wouldn't -- unless they were going to ambush the signing dignitaries, which would kinda signal their intentions. Otherwise, they'd just quietly bide their time until it was time to attack -- as drow have done countless times.
I would have to agree with that.
There is always going to be a certain amount of arrogance on the part of the drow whenever they interact with non-drow -- whether it be trade or war. The petitioning for, and then signing of, a treaty between the drow and another race probably won't even be a factor that the drow would consider. The drow mindset influences a great deal of the decisions when interacting with non-drow. We've seen this time and again in many of the novels they've appeared in.
At the utmost, the drow would likely only ever consider a treaty if they knew that they could gain a military advantage against their enemies later. The treaty would give them the time they need to amass their forces and resources and plan accordingly. To the drow, a treaty would be a means to an end... and that end is victory for the drow over their enemies.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
Arravis
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 02:38:28
|
| House Jaelre is actively interested in the re-unification of the elven races and of a permanent life in the surface world. That is very much unlike any other "standard" drow attitude. Considering their goals, a peace treaty would seem very much in their interest. If House Jaelre was so caught up in their own superiority, they would have no interest in re-unification with the surface elves. |
Edited by - Arravis on 24 May 2005 02:39:29 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 04:01:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
Some of you are saying that neither the Dalesmen nor the elves would come to some sort of peace treaty with the drow of House Jaelre, but aren't giving any concrete reasons other then "but they're drow!" or "they aren't trustworthy".
Everyday (in the current FR timeline), people in the Dales and the Cormanthor die because of the drow. If the Dalesmen or the elves had any real way of solving this problem, they would have by now. The Dalesmen aren't organized well enough and have never been. The elves are too few in number. Yet, they both loose people every day.
If the drow of House Jaelre approach these groups with peace traties that would stop the killing and the raids, you think they'll turn them down out of hand? The Dales aren't run by paladins, they're run by normal people. People who want to live in peace and prosper more then they want to point moral fingers.
Is it somehow better to keep things as they are? Let the deaths continue? How does that help anyone? It just doesn't make any sense to me.
I don't think that any deals would be easy or be done under a banner of "trust". But all sides benefit from the peace, why would they turn it down? What would they gain from doing so? People want to better their everyday lives, and that would help to better them.
I think the dismissal of a peace treaty between "good" (even though, per the DMG, most people are Neutral, not good) and "evil" powers is naive and unrealistic.
Nay, it is not naďve and unrealistic. Good and evil can certainly make treaties, when both sides can trust each other and it is to the clear benefit of both.
But what we have here is a side that cannot be trusted. I will be willing to grant that some drow might actually adhere to such a treaty. But, to the vast majority of people in the Realms, drow are evil incarnate. Tales of them are told to frighten children, and even grown adults fear the prospect of encountering dark elves. Why? Because they have a reputation for wanton, senseless murder and vile acts. It is a known fact that drow often venture out of the Stygian depths they dwell in for the single purpose of slaughtering innocents.
Knowing this, and knowing that they've lost friends and kin to drow, why do you expect the Dalesmen to trust the drow to stick to a treaty? They'll think it's another drow plot, and they'll prepare to be attacked. They are certainly not going to say "Oh, hey, they're making friendly now, so we're all going to trust them!" That view would be naďve and unrealistic.
Yes, the Dalesmen and elves both would gain by a cessation of drow attacks. But it is the experience of both races that if a drow is holding out the hand of friendship, it's to keep you distracted from the drow that's about to stab you in the back.
That is why I think this idea doomed to failure. Not because of good and evil, but because of the known nature of one of the participating races. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Prince Forge of Avalon
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 08:04:51
|
I would have to agree with Wooly & Sage on this matter. Just the general nature of the Drow and their ways of intruige and policital manuevering, I believe would prevent any type of peace offering.
Drow only like to deal from a postion of power & superiority over others and most dalesman would still remember stories of Shadowdale and even more recent abductions and killing, these events are sure to boil over soon enough into outright warfare IMO.
PFoA |
|
|
|
Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 09:51:06
|
| I just want to point out that the upcoming book 2 in the Last Mythal series should give some answers on the state of Cormanthyr (and thus House Laelre) in the official timeline. |
|
|
|
Arravis
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 14:45:40
|
I wish to understand the arguement being made...
Because the elves and the Dalesmen fear that the drow will betray the peace treaty and get back to killing and raiding, they won't agree to a peace treaty, so they want the drow to continue as they are now, killing and raiding?
Right now they have the very thing they fear, why would they wish to continue it? It just doesn't make any sense to me, perhaps I'm missing something.
Let's assume that House Jaelre will only do this to gain an advantage (why does anyone ever agree to any kind of treaty, if not to gain an advantage?). Won't the Dalesmen and the elves use the peace time to gain just as much of an advantage (or even more, as some posters have implied)? All sides must know that any treaty is for each group's advantage, and each group will do just that... take advantage on it. The drow will strengthen their defensive positions, the Dalesmen will train more armsmen, and the elves will shore up their borders. Everyone uses the time to their advantage... as everyone knew they would. If House Jaelre attacks, then the elves and the Dalesmen are ready for them (and probably more unified due to the treaty). If House Jaelre does not attack, then all the better for everyone involved. There is only benefit to all the groups involved, regardless of future attacks.
I'd also like to add some other issues to this:
1) House Jaelre and worshipers of Vhaerun drow are unlike any other drow. You can't use the same ideas of behavior on them as you do for other drow. They want to form permanent surface communities. They want to reunite with their surface elven kin, standing together as a whole. This even goes as far as intermarrying with the other elves (which is encouraged). They actively hunt Lolth worshipers, something that would work well with the elves and the Dalesmen. Lastly, their main goal is simply to survive. So, I think the assumption of them wanting to crush everyone else for their own goals does not fit House Jaelre, their very goals show that.
2) The Dalesmen (and less so the elves) won't actually be very knowledgable at all of drow behavior and traits. They'll know a very basic reputation from old and very varied tales on the drow. They'll know them much more as aggressive raiders, not as traitors (what deals have the drow broken with any of them in the last millenia?). How would the surface peoples know of Lolth worshiping drow's "ways of intruige and political manuevering"? It's not like they've had any experience with them beyond they being simple aggressors.
3) People keep mentioning that trust is required for a treaty... why? Show me a single treaty in our history, between two warring nations, that's based on trust.
Just seems to me that many of you wish to treat the House Jaelre drow just as if they were exactly like the Lolth worshiping drow. As written in the official FR sourcebooks, they are quite different. |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 15:28:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
If the elves of the Cormanthor (Tangle Trees, etc) do come to some sort of peace accord... that would be a massive thing. I don't know if such a thing has ever really happened in FR history.
Saching a time line
I find about -310 "In gratitude for their aid in the Shadow Wars, the Coronal allows the settlement of some reformed, surface-acclimated drow into some remote lands of Cormanthyr to the east of Cormanthor. "
Hmm these might have been Eilistraee followers, because
194 "The Shadowdale temple of Eilistraee and its good dark elves are slaughtered by a new infestation of drow from below; the temple is restored as the Twisted Tower military garrison."
So treaties had been posible in the past, that lasted 500 years.
|
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Arravis
Seeker
USA
93 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 15:39:50
|
| Hmm... interesting indeed. Also, those drow might have not been Eilistraee followers to begin with, but became so over time. Anyway, glad to hear that :). |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2005 : 15:50:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arravis
Hmm... interesting indeed. Also, those drow might have not been Eilistraee followers to begin with, but became so over time. Anyway, glad to hear that :).
I would need to dig much more, if can find out at all, the nature of these Drow. Of course this treaty was not broken by the ones it was made with from all indications. The treaty ended because of a succesful invasion. Thus there appears to be a history of the elves and Drow peacefully co-existing. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
Edited by - Kentinal on 24 May 2005 15:51:29 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Peace between Dalesmen and Drow of House Jaelre?
