| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
 Posted - 05 May 2005 : 23:50:38
|
OK, here is a doozy. I have a player who is tired of having his poor dog familiar "Ward" always getting himself beat up by the edges of combat. The poor thing never seems to make its save. He has taken to putting up a Resilient Sphere around the dog just to keep it alive during dangerous situations.
His solution that he just emailed to me is to make the little bugger into a Mithral Golem in the form of a dog.
After a heart attack and a minor seizure, I recovered and read the stats of the Mithral Golem again. Personally I think it would be OK. If he can come up with a way to transfer the soul of Ward into the new form, I have no problem.
Of course there is the whole fun of finding someone who can create the mithral golem for him in the first place, or find a book that enables him to do so himself.
Caveats:
1: Ward takes 1 year of training to gain full abilities of golem.
2: Ward will have issues with his strength for at least one more year after that.
3: No more magical items for Ward. Mithral Golems are immune to all spells except haste and slow.
4: The golem will be heavy as hell. No more sleeping on the foot of the bed.
5: Ward must go through some serious psychotherapy. He will no longer be able to eat food, drink, smell, have a fine sense of touch, or be able to make any vocal noises. (I personally think that would be one hell of a shock for anyone, much less a familiar.)
My questions are as follows:
1: Should the act of putting Ward's spirit into the Golem break the Familiar's bond with the wizard?
2: Does the Wizard loose his enhance smell(my opinion is yes)
3: Does the Wizard gain any new ability due to the change in familiar? If so which?
4: Should the Familiar still require sleep?
5: What Familiar/Wizard abilities remain? Which are lost?
6: Should I reduce strength, HP and saves of the Golem in proportion to its size change?
Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
|
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 00:47:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Fletcher
My questions are as follows:
1: Should the act of putting Ward's spirit into the Golem break the Familiar's bond with the wizard?
2: Does the Wizard loose his enhance smell(my opinion is yes)
3: Does the Wizard gain any new ability due to the change in familiar? If so which?
4: Should the Familiar still require sleep?
5: What Familiar/Wizard abilities remain? Which are lost?
6: Should I reduce strength, HP and saves of the Golem in proportion to its size change?
Any thoughts would be much appreciated.
Okay, I'll take a couple of these...
1. Yes. It's no longer a living creature.
2. Golems have no sense of smell, so yes.
3. Not that I can think of... I hope he's got strong shoulders, though. 
4. This one is iffy... The brain does require sleep, simply to process information and for relaxation. But since you're not transfering the brain, I'd be inclined to say no.
5. Since, to the best of my knowledge, there's no rules for a construct familiar, I'd say it's all up to the DM. I'll go a bit more into this one in a minute.
6. I'll leave that to someone who cares about numbers.
Now, if I was going to allow this (which I wouldn't), I'd make things difficult on the character. First, he's going to suffer the penalty for losing a familiar. Then, after the soul is in the golem, the PC has to try again to gain the familiar's service. If the familiar knows the PC was behind the death of its meat body, even for being put into a tougher shell, I'd make the familiar be a little tweaked off and thus harder for the PC to regain the trust of. If the PC was successful, then I'd allow the mental bond and any bonuses that don't require the familiar to have a living body. I'd be very careful with sharing saving throws -- a golem could easily make saves that a wizard would sweat.
One thing I would recommend as an alternative is the Familiar Enhancer series of spells from an old issue of Dragon. 'Twas in issue 182, during the days of 2E. The article was called "That's Certainly Un-Familiar!", and detailed a bunch of spells that, when cast on the familiar, increased certain abilities and/or gave the familiar special new abilities. The abilities were randomly selected, so each familiar would be unique. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
 |
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 01:00:12
|
1. Yes
2. Yes
3. No, because no longer a Familiar
4. No, no longer living.
5. None remain, treat as a consruct of a dog/apply template.
6. Size change does not effect hp, Str or saves. Size change effects AC movement etc.
I would not allow the dog to have this done to it. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 16:15:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Now, if I was going to allow this (which I wouldn't), I'd make things difficult on the character. First, he's going to suffer the penalty for losing a familiar. Then, after the soul is in the golem, the PC has to try again to gain the familiar's service. If the familiar knows the PC was behind the death of its meat body, even for being put into a tougher shell, I'd make the familiar be a little tweaked off and thus harder for the PC to regain the trust of. If the PC was successful, then I'd allow the mental bond and any bonuses that don't require the familiar to have a living body. I'd be very careful with sharing saving throws -- a golem could easily make saves that a wizard would sweat.
One thing I would recommend as an alternative is the Familiar Enhancer series of spells from an old issue of Dragon. 'Twas in issue 182, during the days of 2E. The article was called "That's Certainly Un-Familiar!", and detailed a bunch of spells that, when cast on the familiar, increased certain abilities and/or gave the familiar special new abilities. The abilities were randomly selected, so each familiar would be unique.
I appreciate your comments. And I agree with most of them. I brought up the fact that he would basically be killing his familiar, and he came up with an interesting solution.
He is going to first try to convince his familiar that the change will be a good thing.
If that is successful, he wants to create a phylactery or other soul storing device, transfer the soul of Ward into the phylactery and put the dog's body into stasis.
Technically the familiar would still be alive. So technically he wouldn't lose the familiar bond when it transferred.
I would not allow the non living golem to share saves, nor allow the wizard to share the saves of the golem. They would be on their own in that fashion. I also would not allow any personal spells to be used on the golem, nor could the golem deliver touch spells for the caster. But I would still allow the mental communication, and the increased intelligence to persist for Ward.
Comments on the solution? It seems pretty good to me.
I vaguely remember the articles about familiars, I'll have to try to find my ancient dragon magazines again. |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 17:31:54
|
I dunno... The more I think about it, the less I like the idea. It's like the guy is trying to lose the vulnerabilities of a familiar (which to me, are something you have to take into account when getting one), and turn his familiar into a little tank. It sounds like the player wants the advantages of both a golem and a familiar, but none of the disadvantages.
I don't think I would allow this. The player gets way too much of a benefit with no trade-off.
I think the familiar enhancement spells are the way to go.
But, getting back to your solution... How does the player propose to convince an animal with low intelligence that its in it's best interest to essentially stop being a dog? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 17:37:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
How does the player propose to convince an animal with low intelligence that its in it's best interest to essentially stop being a dog?
Oposed Skill check perhaps.
Bluff vs. Sense motive or some simalar dice roll.
The dog will lose in almost any dce roll I would expect.
I suspect it will depend of convincing the DM and/pr quality of roleplay. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
Icewolf
Learned Scribe
USA
214 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 18:21:47
|
Remember, a familiar is more than just an animal. They have heightened intelligence, and an empathic bond with its master.
I for one, would never wish to change a trusted friend and ally in this way. |
|
|
|
Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 18:45:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I dunno... The more I think about it, the less I like the idea. It's like the guy is trying to lose the vulnerabilities of a familiar (which to me, are something you have to take into account when getting one), and turn his familiar into a little tank. It sounds like the player wants the advantages of both a golem and a familiar, but none of the disadvantages.
I don't think I would allow this. The player gets way too much of a benefit with no trade-off.
I think the familiar enhancement spells are the way to go.
But, getting back to your solution... How does the player propose to convince an animal with low intelligence that its in it's best interest to essentially stop being a dog?
As Ice Wolf mentioned, in 3e familiars gain INT. I think right now Ward has an INT of 9.
Currently the PC's primary method of travel is Teleport. He uses Teleport to get everywhere. Now with a Golem, he will have to travel over land. He won't be able to take the Golem when he plane-shifts, or any other form of magical travel other than walking through an open gate. I think that will engender a whole new level of frustration for the PC.
He will start having to leave his familiar behind, which can start to cause some real problems when you have a golem upset with you with the lack of attention it is getting.
There is also the fact that he might get cocky and send his golem into combat and get it killed.
Yes I see some advantages for the PC. But since combat doesn't happen every session, and travel does...I see more difficulties than advantages. His dog won't be able to smell people sneaking up on the camp, it will nolonger have any of its keen senses.
The next series of tasks I'm setting the party will involve a great deal of politicking and marraige arrangements. I don't see much in the way of combat going on for probably a year or two game time. |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
Edited by - Fletcher on 06 May 2005 19:13:32 |
|
|
|
Icewolf
Learned Scribe
USA
214 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 19:41:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Fletcher
As Ice Wolf mentioned, in 3e familiars gain INT. I think right now Ward has an INT of 9.
Currently the PC's primary method of travel is Teleport. He uses Teleport to get everywhere. Now with a Golem, he will have to travel over land. He won't be able to take the Golem when he plane-shifts, or any other form of magical travel other than walking through an open gate. I think that will engender a whole new level of frustration for the PC.
He will start having to leave his familiar behind, which can start to cause some real problems when you have a golem upset with you with the lack of attention it is getting.
There is also the fact that he might get cocky and send his golem into combat and get it killed.
Yes I see some advantages for the PC. But since combat doesn't happen every session, and travel does...I see more difficulties than advantages. His dog won't be able to smell people sneaking up on the camp, it will nolonger have any of its keen senses.
The next series of tasks I'm setting the party will involve a great deal of politicking and marraige arrangements. I don't see much in the way of combat going on for probably a year or two game time.
Actually, If his familiar is within 5 feet, it can share spells, which means travel via magic isn't impeded due to the familiar's new weight. You can voluntarily turn off spell resistance, so I see no reason that a golem-familiar can't lower its magic immunity for its master to cast spells on it. |
|
|
|
Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 21:16:35
|
You're god in your game, and you know better than us the effect this will have, but I'm definitely with Wooly and Kentinal on this one, I wouldn't allow it either.
Let me suggest:
1. Choker of Resistance +5 from Masters of the Wild, not too expensive and will aid those saving throws.
2. Familiar Pocket: I may not have the name exactly right but this spell is in Tome and Blood. Use it.
3. Familiar Carrier: Again Tome and blood, keep the little pooch out of combat.
It would be much easier on you to let him make a doggie bracelet pf protection, or an earring of natural armor than to create a mithral golem to house the poor dog's soul in. Do dog's even have souls?
If you must go through with the construct idea, make him take the Improved Familiarfeat, and consider adapting (use ability stats of a dog) the warforged scout from MM3 into a dog type creature. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
|
|
|
|
Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 22:37:43
|
Hmm a god.. I like the sound of that.
Thank you all for your input it has been very helpful in focusing my thoughts and where I plan on taking the creation and training of such a creation. Because of my history with this player, I don't think that he will abuse the creation, and I am willing to give him the chance.
I'll post later as to the outcome of his endeavors.
Had a nice chat with the player. He is willing to pay the xp cost of losing the familiar to be able to put Ward into the golem body. He is willing to take the two years necessary to build and train it. He is willing to forgo all of the familiar bonuses except the mental link. He understands the difficulties of transporting the beast everywhere.
He is willing to not try to abuse the situation, as I promised I'd take his toys away if he didn't heed my warning.
I must say that I am interested to see what he will do with his newly transformed golem. Not to mention what effect this will have on his plans for marrying into wealthy elven nobility. After all he is going to spend about 1 million gold in about 2 years, with no adventuring to gain more. He is going to suddenly become poor. I am curious how he will handle that as well.
|
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 23:52:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Fletcher
I must say that I am interested to see what he will do with his newly transformed golem. Not to mention what effect this will have on his plans for marrying into wealthy elven nobility.
That would cause some serious problems... Elves would see doing something like that to a living creature as an abomination, no matter why it was done. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 00:31:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Fletcher
I must say that I am interested to see what he will do with his newly transformed golem. Not to mention what effect this will have on his plans for marrying into wealthy elven nobility.
That would cause some serious problems... Elves would see doing something like that to a living creature as an abomination, no matter why it was done.
Well there are elves and there are elves. Gold I believe would be far less outraged then green would be, silver might consider odd but dog would die soon (if normal animal) so a kind of perserving might be considered just strange.
Of course those would accept would I think be rare rather then common. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
|
|
|
jebeddo
Seeker
Canada
69 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 03:19:41
|
I would suggest to the player to consider transfering his dog to a dog-shaped, golem-like construct. That way you would have an easier time making decisions about what type of familiar powers the dog and master will share. Looks like it's too late now, though! |
"Only half-orcs rush in where devas fear to tread." |
|
|
|
Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 15:10:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Well there are elves and there are elves. Gold I believe would be far less outraged then green would be, silver might consider odd but dog would die soon (if normal animal) so a kind of perserving might be considered just strange.
Of course those would accept would I think be rare rather then common.
I agree. I am inclined to have most of the elves curious and mildly disapproving rather than outright against him transferring the essence of his familiar into a golem. There will be some number of true detractors, but I will have to see how he uses the golem/familiar in public to determine the extent of the negative feeling. |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
|
|
|
Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2005 : 15:14:05
|
quote:
Originally posted by jebeddo
I would suggest to the player to consider transfering his dog to a dog-shaped, golem-like construct. That way you would have an easier time making decisions about what type of familiar powers the dog and master will share. Looks like it's too late now, though!
I'm still working out some of the kinks on the expense of creating a totally new shape for a golem, much less transferring the intellegence over in such a way that it would be able to control the golem. Probably just make sure that he properly words the wish.
How long it is going to take the poor puppy to adjust, the chance that it will go insane not having it sense of smell, poor hearing, poor touch, no tase or voice. Not to mention it is going to be in a body it will have to learn to control. It will be like learning to drive in a bulldozer. I see the potential for a lot of collateral damage.
I have this image of a 5 year old with a BOBCAT driving through the house. You have 2 tons worth of uncontrolled mass with a strength of something hideous wandering through a wood and stone house with very expensive elven furnature... |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
|
|
|
Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Familiar to Golem?
