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Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 09:30:06
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What i'd like to point out here is something i think Ed said in his own thread last year...
Chosen represent a very large investment of a deity's power, which diminishes the overall power of said deity considerably. Yet Chosen, unlike other powerful divine servants, are still essentially human (or whatever species) and have FREE WILL. This means that for most Gods, the creation of a Chosen represents great risk with no guarantee of any return - as Sammaster proved, not only may Chosen prove to be unfit for the power, but they may turn out to be far less committed to the deity's cause than desired. It is easier by far to use the various divine servants (eg Seraphs) that have diminished free will and require less investment of power by their deity (as they are already powerful planar beings and need not overcome their mortality).
Mystra created Chosen, with the consent of Ao, to LIMIT her own power as well as to prepare for any potential future disruptions to herself or the Weave (the ToT). As the goddess of raw magic, Mystra is far and away the most powerful divine being involved directly with the mortals of Faerun... but thanks to her astonishing investment of power in mortal servants (around a dozen Chosen perhaps?) she's kept in check and is balanced against the other powers of the Realms (which is apparently one of Ao's purposes, to continue ensuring this situation).
Aside from Ed's comments... other speculations of why a deity may or may not create a Chosen...
For a start, the Chosen has to be reconciled in some way with the hierarchy of the faith. In Bane's case, this is simple. As the god of Tyranny, he made his Chosen and placed him directly in charge of his faith, no questions asked. Bane thoroughly dictates to Fzoul and Fzoul dictates to the Church. In Mystra's faith, the Chosen involve themselves little with her established Church (if at all) and instead focus on completing those divine duties required by the goddess of magic that her Church cannot accomplish (and as the deity of magic, she often has bewildering and extremely daunting tasks to ask of her most powerful servants).
How would a Chosen of Lathander work in relation to the Morninglord's Church? IIRC the faith isn't a unified one, so placing the Chosen in charge of the flock makes little sense. Also, using a Chosen to complete special missions for Lathander also makes little sense at the current time, given what we know of the god's activities. He's preparing for another reshaping of the gods, and from what we know of the Dawn Cataclysm it had virtually nothing to do with the mortals of the Realms, being an event solely connected to the deities which only afterwards showed an influence on the mortal world - in the necessary changes in the faiths of those powers effected (eg Tyche).
Ultimately, i don't see a Chosen of Lathander making sense for the Realms and i too think we've seen far too many Chosen beyond those of Mystra (who are according to Ed supposed to be the only Chosen). In the end, that's just my opinion though and many people do like the additional Chosen in the Realms.
GH
P.S. How many deities are known to have created Chosen now? |
Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005 |
Edited by - Gerath Hoan on 28 Apr 2005 09:36:11 |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 14:02:51
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quote:
P.S. How many deities are known to have created Chosen now?
Oficially, 3 gods have their chosen:
Mystra - El, Khelben and the seven sisters;
Bane - Fzoul
Deneir - Cadderly
I, personally, have 6 years of campaign pondering in the possibility of the character became a chosen. That was a decision that I made without the player know, and the surprise was really a good thing.
I studied the character very well. In her 4 pages background, all that happen was ever seen as "Tchazzar will" for him... the madness of her father, the murder of her mother, the slow descent in the spiral of evil, the exile. In all things that happen, the hand of Tchazzar was moving the pieces, forging the character. So, in the game sessions, I always put him in moral divagations, and decisions concerning the dogmas of her church. And always he was a stalwart defender of his faith, and this culminate with the cleric killing the elven fighter/mage of the group (well, the group have 2 good guys - now dead, 2 neutral persons, and 2 bad guys). And so I start to thinking in the god, Tchazzar. He was almost destroied in my campaign, and Tiamat was became very strong, and spreading his faith in Faerun. But Tchazzar is a cunning one. So cunning that, as a red dragon, he atain godhood quick and eficiently. So, he start to move his pieces in her chessgame for portfolio and influence against Tiamat. And after some more tests, he choose the character as her "Chosen", giving him some powers and the mission of spread the influence of his church in distant lands. The character, pratically have no influence in his hierarchy church, because he is the only representative os his faith in "that untamed north". With a trick very well aplied, the character gain the aproval of waterdeep people, and of some os his nobles, too, and start the construction of a temple of Tchazzar there. And the character is a very cunning man, too. Yes, he is chaotic and, yes, he is evil, but he is not a stupid. He will do nothing against Watherdavians, and will stay in very good terms with Khelben. His goals are only two, good and simple: to gain more adepts from his faith, augmenting Tchazzar´s influence; and fight against all Tiamat agents, and try to convert some chromatic dragons to Tchazzar´s faith, too (in this, moving against the influence of the Cult of the Dragon)
Yes, yes... he have problems! 
So I, personally, think that there are really no problem to the existence of other "chosens", in that way: the good work of the author´s don´t deserve to be "banalized", so this have to be made with extreme caution.. a divine disciple or divine champion with a good choice of powers and itens can fill this role? Use it. If something more daunting is necessary, do it. But ever with care. Personally, I think that Lathander will not have the necessity of a "Chosen". With the bad moments that his avatar pass with Sammaster, I think that the god will choose carefully in when or who spend his divine power. And some good divine champions, divine disciples and morninglords will do a great job for his faith, maybe more than a chosen... |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 14:12:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
quote:
P.S. How many deities are known to have created Chosen now?
Oficially, 3 gods have their chosen:
Mystra - El, Khelben and the seven sisters;
Bane - Fzoul
Deneir - Cadderly
Wasn't there a Chosen of Mielikki mentioned in some FR tome? |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 16:22:45
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Yes, I forgot this, I´m sorry.
In the Vilhon Reach suplement, is said that the 3 leaders of the Emerald Enclave are Chosen of Silvanus, Eldath and Mielliki (and I say a great "Woow" for this...).
And someone told me that Queen Amlaruil is the Chosen of the Seldarine...
Yuri "Chosen of Moradin" Peixoto, seeing a great possibility to see the "Complete Chosen Handbook" hit the markets soon... |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 16:54:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
And someone told me that Queen Amlaruil is the Chosen of the Seldarine...
Did they provide a source or even hint at where they found information on this title for the Sad Queen?
quote:
Yuri "Chosen of Moradin" Peixoto, seeing a great possibility to see the "Complete Chosen Handbook" hit the markets soon...
<Placeholder for future joke SB will make regarding such a possible tome> |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 17:21:18
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These are the ones I could remember, since people continue to ask this on the WOTC boards. The Sad Queen, I believe, was mentioned in the Evermeet novel, as was her daughter. Or maybe it was the Evermeet sourcebook. I forgot about them until now but I'll look it up again and find the text. For now I left them off the list though. And before someone comments, WOTC made the Seraphs from 2e into Chosens, see Lords of Darkness and Faiths & Pantheons for 3e.
Canon Chosen’s
Mystra
Elminster
Storm Silverhand
Laeral Silverhand
Alustrial Silverhand
Qilue Veladorn
Sylune Silverhand
Khelben Arunson
Dove Falconhand
Noumea Drathchuld (the last current magister, before the current magister Talatha Vaerovree of Innarlith was raised to the office.)
Alvaerele Tasundrym (She was the Magister back in 576 to 592DR. She's called the Silent Chosen and most have no idea she exists. She guards things the old Mystra wanted to keep secret, like where the Srinshee sleeps. She also makes sure to keep human, half-elven, and elven family trees up to date so they don’t become lost.)
Symrustar Auglamyr
The Srinshee
Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep
Sammaster (Past Chosen.)
Nadrathen, the Rebel Chosen (deceased).
Bane
Fzoul Chembryl
Cyric
Malik
Deneir
Cadderly Bonaduce
Eilistraee
Qilue Veladorn
Eldath
Ashenford Torinbow
Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers
Shinthala Deepcrest
Gilgleam
Shuruppak (no longer a chosen since Gilgleam's death)
Mask
Kesson Rel
Avner of Hartsvale
Erevis Cale
Drasek Riven
Mielikki:
Jeryth Phaulkon
Ashenford Torinbow
Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers
Shinthala Deepcrest
Oghma
Sephris Dwendon (appeared in Twilight Falling, deceased)
Shar
Underdark said she has one, but name and race wasn't given.
Silvanus
Ashenford Torinbow
Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers
Shinthala Deepcrest
Talona
The Rotting man (Unapproachable East)
Ubtao
The six Baras of Mezro
Umberlee
Slarkrathel
Malar
Has one but I can't recall the 3e Dungeon adventure where he is listed.
Lolth
Liriel Baenre (possibly but might be a exchosen now)
Another but I don't want to spoil a certain set of novels. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 28 Apr 2005 17:24:56 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 17:35:19
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
These are the ones I could remember, since people continue to ask this on the WOTC boards. The Sad Queen, I believe, was mentioned in the Evermeet novel, as was her daughter. Or maybe it was the Evermeet sourcebook. I forgot about them until now but I'll look it up again and find the text. For now I left them off the list though. And before someone comments, WOTC made the Seraphs from 2e into Chosens, see Lords of Darkness and Faiths & Pantheons for 3e.
I have a suggestion... As an outgrowth of your grand NPC list, perhaps you should make a separate list of Chosen, with references...  |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 17:35:23
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
These are the ones I could remember, since people continue to ask this on the WOTC boards.
They do? How surprising.
quote:
The Sad Queen, I believe, was mentioned in the Evermeet novel, as was her daughter. Or maybe it was the Evermeet sourcebook. I forgot about them until now but I'll look it up again and find the text.
Let me know if you find a page number for either source. I know the Sad Queen has been detailed as having a close connection with the Seldarine. However, I can't recall the term, Chosen, being utilized.
quote:
Canon Chosen’s
That's quite a long list. I don't know why I think the term has become cliched. 
And yes, Lolth is done with Liriel so she's an ex-chosen. I wonder if such figures get retirement benefits? |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 17:43:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
These are the ones I could remember, since people continue to ask this on the WOTC boards. The Sad Queen, I believe, was mentioned in the Evermeet novel, as was her daughter. Or maybe it was the Evermeet sourcebook. I forgot about them until now but I'll look it up again and find the text. For now I left them off the list though. And before someone comments, WOTC made the Seraphs from 2e into Chosens, see Lords of Darkness and Faiths & Pantheons for 3e.
I have a suggestion... As an outgrowth of your grand NPC list, perhaps you should make a separate list of Chosen, with references...
The ones that were stat'd I put Chosen of so and so in thier text except for the obvious ones from Mystra because most know of Elminster, the 7, and Khelben. :) The lesser known ones of Mystra, again if they had stats, I put in thier descrip text. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 17:45:09
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Let me know if you find a page number for either source. I know the Sad Queen has been detailed as having a close connection with the Seldarine. However, I can't recall the term, Chosen, being utilized.
And yes, Lolth is done with Liriel so she's an ex-chosen. I wonder if such figures get retirement benefits?
Well we don't really even know of Liriel was a Chosen. We have Shakti's word on that she was but to be on the safe side I included her with the text next to it. And making a note to dig up the Sad Queen's info. :)
Edit: Well you're right it doesn't specifically say she is a Chosen of the Seldarine. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 28 Apr 2005 18:08:53 |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 18:10:25
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Edit: Well you're right it doesn't specifically say she is a Chosen of the Seldarine. :)
Thanks for looking it up. And please don't give FR designers any ideas regarding her character and that term.  |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 04:17:29
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Let's not be forgetting Pil'it'ith, ex-Chosen of Merrshaulk/Sseth.
Malar
•Anth-Malar (“Forest of Blood” Dungeon #103).
I have a saved copy of your list of Chosen that told me that, kuje.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Ubtao
The six Baras of Mezro
As I recall, not all of the six were ever detailed?
I have their names:
•Alisandra Rayburton
•Dhlamass Rayburton
•Ras Ni
•Fipya
•Kwalu
•Mainu
•Ossaw I.
Personally I am of the opinion that all these non-Mystran Chosen contribute to the Realms having less of a distinct setting feel. Mystra had her Chosen because she was the goddess of magic. However, I actually quite liked the idea of Bane having a Chosen, rather than proxy or just High Priest. It seemed to me like the sort of spiteful grab for the power Mystra possesses that he might take following a fresh perspective put on after a decade of death. Fzoul as Chosen also seemed fitting because of his history with Bane, Iyachtu Xvim and Cyric - and his previous irreverence in any faith.
But the others I don't think have any point Realmslore-wise. They are there to impress the Prestige Class generation. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
Edited by - Sarelle on 29 Apr 2005 04:18:43 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 05:31:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
I have a saved copy of your list of Chosen that told me that, kuje.
But the others I don't think have any point Realmslore-wise. They are there to impress the Prestige Class generation.
Can you mail me that list? :) I lost it in a Hard Drive crash.
As for the second part, I think that's a bit harsh. I'm not a prestige class generation and I've always enjoyed having more Chosen then just Mystra's. :)
Edited my list with the few I forgot, thanks. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 05:54:04
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I hate to say it, but I can accept Ubtao's barae as Chosen (of a sort). They do have a valid function, there's never more than 7 (and sometimes less), and it's something you have to earn. As we saw, if you irk Ubtao, you're no longer a bara.
I think that his barae stick to the flavor and intent of Mystra's Chosen a lot better than most of the other Chosen. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 06:40:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I hate to say it, but I can accept Ubtao's barae as Chosen (of a sort). They do have a valid function, there's never more than 7 (and sometimes less), and it's something you have to earn. As we saw, if you irk Ubtao, you're no longer a bara.
I think that his barae stick to the flavor and intent of Mystra's Chosen a lot better than most of the other Chosen.
I'd hve to agree with Wooly on this.
In addition to what he just said, the fact that the seven barae are effectively "immortal" (though note that they can be murdered -- their faith protects them forever from the effects of old age and sickness) means that they provide Ubtao with a significant measure of influence in the mortal realms.
They act as a collective source of faith for Ubtao among the scattered tribes of Tabaxi.
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2005 : 12:45:39
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| I agree with the Ubtao´s Chosen, too. And I like to add the Emerald Enclave, as the Chosen of the trio-nature gods (Silvanus, Eldath and Mielliki). They have a great influence, and a great work in the Vilhon Reach, mantaining the balance in that region. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 00:34:48
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Once again, the topic of King Obould has risen... I've argued about this orc so many times over at IWD that I basically have it memorized. Lol.
I myself personally do not think Obould is THE Chosen of Gruumsh. He may be a "chosen" of the orcs like a champion, but not Chosen in the sense of Elminster or Fzoul. I mean, the first and foremost reason for this would have been the ritual. The ritual granted Obould the abilities of a couple of minor spells, but none of the truly powerful abilities we read about that chosens have (Ex. Ageless). Then there's also the fact that this ritual was conducted by shamans of Gruumsh. If Obould was indeed made a Chosen by the One-Eyed, wouldn't Gruumsh himself do it? I don't think no matter how powerful or numerous amount of divine spellcasters you have, they can't grant a person Chosen powers. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 06:08:51
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| Greetings, if Mystra have her own chosen, what about the chosen of Selune and Shar? Are there any chosen under them? |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 06:41:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Greetings, if Mystra have her own chosen, what about the chosen of Selune and Shar? Are there any chosen under them?
Shar has one mentioned in Underdark but it's only a sentence. It doesn't list name, gender, powers, or anything. Selune doesn't have one that we know of officially. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 08:22:23
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
quote:
Originally posted by Shadovar
Greetings, if Mystra have her own chosen, what about the chosen of Selune and Shar? Are there any chosen under them?
Shar has one mentioned in Underdark but it's only a sentence. It doesn't list name, gender, powers, or anything. Selune doesn't have one that we know of officially.
Indeed.
I've often toyed with the apparent notion of statting a Chosen of Shar myself, but that notion rarely moves past the idea itself... .
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 16:33:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Indeed.
I've often toyed with the apparent notion of statting a Chosen of Shar myself, but that notion rarely moves past the idea itself... .
Well I happen to like the other Chosens so I'm not going to disagree with TSR/WOTC for doing so. I'd like to know more of Shar's myself. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2005 : 02:04:27
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I may have been a little harsh in my original comments on a Chosen of Shar. Of course, if any other deity in the Realms deserves a specific Chosen... it is Shar, mainly because of the Shadow Weave.
I just don't like the possibilities for conflict between highly powered Chosen of Mystra and an awesomely powerful Chosen of Shar.
I can only imagine the online polls that would start...  .
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2005 : 08:04:16
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With regards to there beings chosens other than mystra.
quote: Lords of Darkness, pg 95
The Zhentarim.....led by an archmage and the Chosen of Bane himself |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2005 : 13:02:25
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I might be being stupid, my brains overloaded with statistics at the moment 
I thought one of the points raised was only Mystra should have chosen, and I was pointing out some source material that said otherwise.
Forgive me if I was wrong :) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2005 : 14:47:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
I thought one of the points raised was only Mystra should have chosen, and I was pointing out some source material that said otherwise.
It was .
However, numerous tomes already establish that the Chosen of Bane is Fzoul Chembryl.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2005 : 15:54:01
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| That'll teach me to try and read 15 posts in one go :) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2005 : 17:31:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
I might be being stupid, my brains overloaded with statistics at the moment
I thought one of the points raised was only Mystra should have chosen, and I was pointing out some source material that said otherwise.
Forgive me if I was wrong :)
'Twas Ed's intention that only Mystra would have Chosen... However, in recent years, other authors have been popping out "Chosen" of other deities left and right. |
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Chosen of Lathander?
