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SomeDude
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 04:28:12
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Why in the nine hells can't I find any Chosen of Lathander anywhere? Maybe they were all "Risen Martyrs" and aren't around anymore as there quest was completed? It just would seem to me that with Lathanders personality we would see him granting chosen status without much reguard to spending his own power.
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 04:46:51
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Sacrificng powers isn't too much of a factor in creating a chosen (unless you are a selfish bitch like Shar ) for a deity, as it is whether they see the need for them that counts.
For example, Mystra made Elminster and Khelben Chosens and gave birth to the Seven Sisters because the Goddess knew that they would be needed in dire times (ex. ToT) to help the deity herself. Bane made Fzoul a chosen because the God of Strife needed an individual to become a leader and prominent figure in his church to show power, as he needed to win back followers after his resurrection. Then there's Mask, who created five Chosens for the specific task of helping him gain power and ultimately get his lost portfolio (I forgot what it was) back.
Lathander probably does not feel the need to create a chosen because it doesn't go with the agenda that the deity has. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
Edited by - DDH_101 on 27 Apr 2005 04:50:39 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 05:21:14
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And not all deities have Chosen, though some game designers and authors are trying their best to rectify that situation...
I'm one of those people that thinks only Mystra should have Chosen. Any other deities that want to give a mortal special status and powers should have Champions, or something like that. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 05:27:11
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| Wooly, isn't "Chosen" basically just a title within the other churches? I mean, there's like Seraph, Proxy, Divine Agents, Champions, etc... The only true chosens are like as you mentioned, Mystra's Chosens. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 05:35:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And not all deities have Chosen, though some game designers and authors are trying their best to rectify that situation...
I take it even though you haven't read a certain popular novel series featuring dark elves that you have heard some plot developments? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 05:48:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm one of those people that thinks only Mystra should have Chosen. Any other deities that want to give a mortal special status and powers should have Champions, or something like that.
I'd support that view. The actual title of "Chosen" should remain exclusively within the purview of Mystra.
Regarding 'Champions' though, I'm really more with the school of thought that assigns such mortal servitors, the title of 'Proxy'. Perhaps, if the situation demanded a more specific or elegant title, then by all means, a new title should be used to refer to those special mortals who have been selected to serve a divine power on the Material Plane. But I think that, specifically, that title should more than greatly reflect the personality and atributes of the deity and his/her portfolio that is in question.
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 06:03:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Regarding 'Champions' though, I'm really more with the school of thought that assigns such mortal servitors, the title of 'Proxy'. Perhaps, if the situation demanded a more specific or elegant title, then by all means, a new title should be used to refer to those special mortals who have been selected to serve a divine power on the Material Plane. But I think that, specifically, that title should more than greatly reflect the personality and atributes of the deity and his/her portfolio that is in question.
I really like any idea over the Chosen label. That term has become a cliche it seems to this FR fan. Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed highlighted the way a Champion type figure could be used in a RPG. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 07:01:13
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
I really like any idea over the Chosen label. That term has become a cliche it seems to this FR fan.
I feel the same way. It has been a word that's been bounced around quite a lot since the coming of 3e, moreso than in the days of 1st, or even 2nd Edition. In the few rare occasions that Mystra's Chosen have either appeared or even been mentioned in my FR campaigns, they've always been referred to as "Mystra's Chosen". Any and all other divine champions that have ever been encountered by my players have usually just been referred to by their actual names, with the PCs having to deduct the "divine servant's" position as a proxy of a deity.
quote:
Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed highlighted the way a Champion type figure could be used in a RPG.
Monte once said that his original ideas for the 'Champion' class in AU evolved from his basic and "loose" conception for how he'd used proxies in his home PS campaigns. He'd added some new aspects to the basic structure for the Champion of course, but if you've read the very first details which bring proxies into D&D gaming environment, and then glance over the Champion class details in the AU tome, you'll see some of the similarities.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 07:11:12
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I should also note that my actual conception of "Mystra's Chosen" is very much like Ed's original view.
Here's Ed's take -
quote:
Mystra believes that the ultimate good comes from the proliferation of magic and its widespread use, being put into all hands, for good or for ill...so the Chosen are judged on how much they hurl magic around, give it to others, teach others, and work against tyrants-of-magic like the Zhents, not because the Zhents are "evil," but because they try to restrict control of magic to themselves, and not let potential foes have it.
And further -
quote:
The Chosen who are Mystra's daughters also had (under the 'old' Mystra, their mother) a special status, which Elminster (her lover) also enjoyed...the new Mystra is changing things. Watch what we do in the years ahead with The Magister (I've turned in an FOR-style sourcebook on that office and what its holders do) and with Khelben, the most 'ungood' of "good" Chosen. It's wrong to see the Chosen as necessarily good...it's more accurate to see them as the veteran-killer-American-GI or Wild West gunslinger who does good, or fights for 'good,' but in doing so is twisted far from good him- or herself.
My own ideas may, due to necessary internal campaign elements, change from time to time, but I always try to essentially, stay true to this reasoning.
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 12:05:18
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
The Chosen who are Mystra's daughters also had (under the 'old' Mystra, their mother) a special status, which Elminster (her lover) also enjoyed...the new Mystra is changing things. Watch what we do in the years ahead with The Magister (I've turned in an FOR-style sourcebook on that office and what its holders do) and with Khelben, the most 'ungood' of "good" Chosen. It's wrong to see the Chosen as necessarily good...it's more accurate to see them as the veteran-killer-American-GI or Wild West gunslinger who does good, or fights for 'good,' but in doing so is twisted far from good him- or herself.
My own ideas may, due to necessary internal campaign elements, change from time to time, but I always try to essentially, stay true to this reasoning.
I love his "veteran-killer-American-GI or Wild West gunslinger" description. Another aspect that I seem to recall Ed Greenwood mentioning at one time that I think is often overlooked is the fact that Mystra's Chosen aren't necessarily as sane as the average person might be. I don't view such a description as meaning they are raving lunatics, but like certain individuals who have been through so much, they view things a bit...differently than a normal person with an average lifespan might. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 14:37:47
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Another aspect that I seem to recall Ed Greenwood mentioning at one time that I think is often overlooked is the fact that Mystra's Chosen aren't necessarily as sane as the average person might be. I don't view such a description as meaning they are raving lunatics, but like certain individuals who have been through so much, they view things a bit...differently than a normal person with an average lifespan might.
All too true, and I do agree. Sanity would seem to be a relative concept when referring to Mystra's Chosen.
Here is Ed's postscript for those scribes looking for a little more Realmslore on Mystra's Chosen. It continues with what Sirius was just talking about -
quote:
One postscript I almost forgot: with Elminster in particular and all of the Chosen, Steven [Schend] and I (at least) are delving into "how insane do you go from living so long with godly power and gods messing with your mind?"
Everything El and the other Chosen do should be read in this light; they're NOT sane.
I've been hinting at this for a long time, but you have to catch the hints (like the good/happy endings, this was a Code of Ethics thing, which is why we can't show villains poisoning, or succeeding, or telling you their detailed plans that someone in the real world might copy or claim as inspiration, etc.)
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Yggdrasil
Acolyte
Thailand
12 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 15:03:11
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I wonder what would happen if the gods made everyone on the realms a chosen |
When choosing between two evils, I always like to try the one I've never tried before.
-Mae West |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 15:42:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Yggdrasil
I wonder what would happen if the gods made everyone on the realms a chosen
Give the designers time. I believe that event is scheduled for fourth edition. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 15:49:37
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
That term has become a cliche it seems to this FR fan.
<blushes and considers changing screen name> |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 16:19:38
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quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
That term has become a cliche it seems to this FR fan.
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<blushes and considers changing screen name>
<I have the same conclusion...> |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 16:57:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
That term has become a cliche it seems to this FR fan.
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<blushes and considers changing screen name>
<I have the same conclusion...>
Perhaps we need to form some form of support group. We can't be the only walking cliche's out there. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 17:03:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
<blushes and considers changing screen name>
<I have the same conclusion...>
 Well that was a nice faux pas I stepped into. Let me amend my statement, "The Chosen term/label has become cliched save for my fellow scribes at Candlekeep. I like them."  |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 17:26:47
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Well that was a nice faux pas I stepped into. Let me amend my statement, "The Chosen term/label has become cliched save for my fellow scribes at Candlekeep. I like them."
Phew, thought I was going to have to come up with a new name and start over with 0 posts, I don't want to be an Acolyte again.  |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 18:36:22
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quote:
Perhaps we need to form some form of support group. We can't be the only walking cliche's out there.
I just start thinking... "High Perceptor of Bane" will be a damned good new nick, right?
quote:
Well that was a nice faux pas I stepped into. Let me amend my statement, "The Chosen term/label has become cliched save for my fellow scribes at Candlekeep. I like them."
Thanks, SB! Your amend save me some headaches trying to figure out another nick. Here in Brazil I´m knows as "Hammer of Moradin", but there is a "northen cousin" of mine alrealdy with this nick in Candlekeep, so I started to think in other alternatives:
Axe of Moradin
Belt of Moradin
Moradin´s Beard
Backpack full of tools of Moradin
and so on... |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 21:50:38
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Talking about the topic now...
I have the same opinion of SB and others... Mystra have Chosens, each of them for very specials purposes...
Personally, I see characthers like Cadderly and Fzoul as "proxies", high-elite members of their faiths, with supreme authority in their religions, but the "chosens", the real "chosens", are Mystra´s Chosen. So said Ed, and so I agree
In my Waterdeep campaign, I have used a little of this topic... in my campaign, Tiamat don´t have utterly destroied Tchazzar, because the fervant faith of the chessentan people in his hero, in his god, put him in a hybernation state, until recently, when the dragon return, with a little of his formal power, and an violent desire for vengeance against Tiamat. To begin his operation to strenght heir faith, the god contact heir more zealot clerics, and test deeply the resolve, compromise and loyalty of all... and one of them, Josep Steelheart (character of ghengiskhan, one of my older players), fighter/cleric of Tchazzar, prove be the most devote of his followers. After many, and many tests, Joseph become her "chosen", and erroneous but usable title... he became the greatest champion of tchazzar, and now is the leader of the faith of tchazzar in that "untamed north"... and this is really a great feat, because the character is vile, cruel and sarcastic... but have a great wisdom and a inteligence to match...
All of us are satisfied with this game sessions, because that aproach more divinely oriented give us so much room for adventure hooks, roleplaying moments, and so... |
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Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 21:56:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
All of us are satisfied with this game sessions, because that aproach more divinely oriented give us so much room for adventure hooks, roleplaying moments, and so...
Good points to bring up. Too often it seems when I read about "Chosen," it seems the focus of many is simply on what powers the Chosen of X would have. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2005 : 22:59:59
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Moradin
All of us are satisfied with this game sessions, because that aproach more divinely oriented give us so much room for adventure hooks, roleplaying moments, and so...
Good points to bring up. Too often it seems when I read about "Chosen," it seems the focus of many is simply on what powers the Chosen of X would have.
That's what bugs me, too. I'll admit that once upon a time, the power a character had was all I was interested in, but I have thankfully outgrown those days. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 00:22:00
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| Part of the problem with the non-Mystra Chosen is that too often an exalted priest would serve the narrative purpose just as well. And the proliferation devalues both Chosen and upperpriests, so we get people thinking that 'just' being a powerful cleric isn't enough. I remember that at one point getting on for half the topics on the first page of the wizards.com magic and deities board were Chosenmania. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 00:59:07
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| Guess I'm going to be the odd man here again and say I happen to like the different Chosens for the other deities, which are different then Proxies. :) Especially in 3/3.5e since Proxies take a divine rank to make while Chosen do not. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36910 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 01:38:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Part of the problem with the non-Mystra Chosen is that too often an exalted priest would serve the narrative purpose just as well. And the proliferation devalues both Chosen and upperpriests, so we get people thinking that 'just' being a powerful cleric isn't enough. I remember that at one point getting on for half the topics on the first page of the wizards.com magic and deities board were Chosenmania.
Only half?  |
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Jindael
Senior Scribe
USA
357 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 02:27:23
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I think that having more than just Mystra's chosen was just a matter of time; Both realms-wise and game-wise.
Game wise…well, I won't be surprised to see The Complete book of Chosen in the near future, chock full of feats, prestige classes and yet more Item Creation feats to water down the already diluted process of making magic stuff.
Realms wise, it's not to much of a stretch for some other deities to see the success and dedication of Mystra's chosen and try the same thing themselves. How many evil gods have had their plan thwarted by one of the Seven or the Two Old Meddling Coots™? This has to be a plan for success, right?
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"You don't have a Soul. You are a Soul. You have a body."
-- C.S. Lewis |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 02:28:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I remember that at one point getting on for half the topics on the first page of the wizards.com magic and deities board were Chosenmania.
To be blunt during my WOTC message board days that often seemed more the norm than the exception. |
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SomeDude
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 04:42:01
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| So if what some people seem to be expecting (Other or most gods begining to grant chosen status) is true, am I right to think that Lathander would be one of the first to jump on that? It seems to me like a god that would bring on something like the "Dawn Cataclysm" would be more than happy to share in the divine wealth by granting chosen status. Maybe even going so far as to "be fertile in mind and body (F&P)" with the mothers of such chosen. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 06:34:44
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Especially in 3/3.5e since Proxies take a divine rank to make while Chosen do not.
Which now, effectively, also prevents such proxies from entering the City of Doors because they now have a DvR...
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 06:35:14
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SomeDude, like I've said before, does creating a Chosen fit the agenda of Lathander? If the Morninglord feels that his church is stable and that his plans are working, then there's no need for such a move. Remember, it may be simple to create a chosen for a deity, but the impact on the Realms and the deity's church isn't.
The Church of Lathander could disagree on one single follower becoming the "Chosen", resulting in different factions in the church that could actually hurt things than give benefits. Or perhaps the Chosen may not be fit for such duties and create problems later on for the Morninglord (Ex. Sammaster the Mad). IN FACT, this is also another reason why Lathander wouldn't create a Chosen. His avatar has fought wiht Sammaster the Mad and he has personally seen the results of a poorly chosen Chosen (haha... stupid joke). |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2005 : 07:13:21
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Remember, it may be simple to create a chosen for a deity, but the impact on the Realms and the deity's church isn't.
That is a very important point to note. Thanks for bringing it up DDH_101.
The creation and application of a 'Chosen' for whatever deity, since I'm using the term in a very general sense here, should be seen to be a very complicated and very long procedure. Most Chosen (not specifically Mystra's Chosen) and Divine Champions or Proxies are "created" from the power for a specific reason, whether to further the definitive aims of a god or its church for a time, or to battle against great threats to the god or its worshippers. They're only two of many reasons obviously, but it illustrates the basis that Chosen are created for a reason.
Then there are other types of "Chosen". These are proxies or divine champions who are brought into being because they are expected to "champion" or fight for a deity's cause for a significant portion of their life. These champions of divine will often will reside with the deity on his or her home plane and be sent forth into the Realms when the need is required.
Aside from all of that though, is the aspect that Chosen are not just created simply because it is "cool" to have them in a campaign, or because they are the latest fad emphasised by the latest novel or sourcebook.
Chosen, like the application of other powerful or epic classes and templates, should be entered into a campaign only after some significant thought from the DM about why such a character is needed, and whether it is truly appropriate.
I've heard tales of many FR campaigns that have been destroyed through the poorly thought out decision of a DM who had let this-Chosen-PC do battle with another-Chosen-PC. It can bring ruin to many campaigns if not properly applied.
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Edited by - The Sage on 28 Apr 2005 07:16:11 |
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Chosen of Lathander?
