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Sigonan
Acolyte
Greece
19 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Apr 2005 : 13:23:45
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Well, I've been occupying another thread (that of Senbar "Beyond death"...) with a discussion along with Wooly (hi!).
So, in that discussion with that certain...hamster, we were disagreeing over the deities of Faerun and their impact:
a)upon the fate of the Realms
b)upon the fate and/or decisions of the worshippers.
My personal opinion is that, in game terms, the existence and power of the pantheon are undeniable and that in most novels and sourcebooks the gods are involved. This is because of the scale and the epic spirit which dominates the stories of heroes (who usually save the world etc) and not the life of a sailor or a farmer.
Still, I hold to the belief that not everyone has witnessed the power of a god, nor has accepted the healing of a priest. And for argument's sake, I will say that many miracles may be produced by other means, say magic. So how much impact does a deity have in one's life, if that one has never seen something extraotdinary performed in the name of a deity? And thus, why should EVERYONE be a follower of a certain deity?
These are my opinions. Anyone (furry or not :)), please feel free to state their own.
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Sigonan Darkpeeble-the multifaceted wizard |
Edited by - Sigonan on 15 Apr 2005 11:31:54
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2005 : 14:55:27
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Well you try and go on a sea-voyage without the captain of the ship having given a tithe to Umberlee first and then we can talk about how little everyday influence the gods have.
Or sow a field of grain without praying to/appeasing Chauntea/Talona. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2005 : 17:22:52
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Sigonan, everyone's life is involved with gods. Every little action they do could be affected by the divine. As Kajehase mentioned, sailors pray and give offerings to Umberlee everytime they set out on a voyage, and farmers pray to Chauntea for a full harvest. Soldiers would pray to Tempus before a major battle, and adventurers would pray to Tymora that they would be able to find riches and not dangers.
Every person on Faerun prays to the gods, but just not with the devotion of a cleric or priest. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2005 : 17:49:23
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Well, I've already put in my two cents, in that other thread.
But I shall here reiterate a couple of my points:
The Time of Troubles, if it accomplished nothing else, proved to the Realms at large the existance of deities.
Deities influence just about every aspect of life on Toril.
Deities love to meddle in the lives of their followers. They often send manifestations to their worshippers, either to assist or to show their pleasure or displeasure.
While not everyone has had some direct contact with a deity or experienced one of their manifestations, they likely know of someone who has. It could be a friend of a friend, a farmer in the next valley, or thru the tales of bards. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2005 : 19:55:10
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I agree, especially considering that Ed has said that in the "true Realms" (meaning, not edited out by exec's) everyone prays to just about everybody. Umberlee when sailing, Chauntea for farming, Milil and Oghma before giving a performance, Tymora and Beshaba for exactly the same thing (one to come, the other to go), etc, etc, etc.
The Realms really reminds me of the way the ancient Egyptians viewed gods, especially among people they conquered. Instead of trying to force their gods on other people, they added foreign gods to their pantheon, built a temple or two to them, and gave them offerings. Their feeling was, why risk angering someone who could make our lives miserable when we've already got so many and what's one more? And in the Realms, the gods CAN make your life miserable. Only priests (and their ilk) primarily worship one god, and even they would probably offer quick prayers to other gods. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2005 : 21:11:57
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| Realmsfolk aren't skeptical, materialistic moderns who need 'proof' of things and fall back on 'faith' in its absence. The gods are proved by the existence of storms, luck, the earth, etc., except for a tiny number of urban scholarly types. |
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Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2005 : 21:21:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
While not everyone has had some direct contact with a deity or experienced one of their manifestations, they likely know of someone who has. It could be a friend of a friend, a farmer in the next valley, or thru the tales of bards.
And if not a deity, then at least through the minor miracles cast by clerics on a fairly regular basis. Blessings over fields, minor spells cast to augment worship in a temple, healing (remember even a Cure Minor Wounds spell can be significant to a commoner), ect.
Yes, some of this can be replicated with magic, but if someone believes in magic, why would they not believe in a deity? In our own world, when strange or wondrous things happened, it was often attributed to divine beings. There may be some advanced wizards who question the power of the gods, like the ancient Netherese for example--sort of like the scientists of the Renaissance questioning faith--but this would be quite rare I think. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2005 : 18:25:18
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| And even the aethiests believe the gods exist, after a fashion. I'm thinking of the villian from Shadow's Witness (Rusk? Or was that the werewolf? Anyway, he's the Zhent thief or assassin), who doesn't believe in Mask and looks down at others for doing so because he thinks it sells their own skills short (sort of, "I'm good enough, I don't need a godly crutch"). But he acknoledges that Mask exists. The issue is whether he prays to the gods, not if they exist. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2005 : 18:50:43
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Rusk is the malarite priest (werewolf)
Riven is the character you are describing.
And my two cents. I think the deities ARE the realms! All people, commoners and heroes, realize the importance of the deites and the vast majority of people pray to multiple gods. The only aethiests would be insane or severely mentally disturbed people. There is proof of the deities around every corner. |
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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2005 : 19:34:28
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Agreed that it would be quite difficult for a person in the Realms to deny the existence of the godly powers, but a whole host of other twists are possible. A cynical or iconoclastic Realmsian might assert any of the following, for example:
1. The so-called gods have no influence on mortal affairs, save the indirect kind that comes from granting spells to their priests and establishing politically powerful priesthoods, but that is really no more or less influence than any number of other powerful non-religious institutions have in Faerun. The idea that Talos creates storms, Chauntea nurtures the earth, etc. is absurd.
2. The so-called gods are nothing more than extremely powerful extra-planar entities with the unusual ability to grant spells to less powerful entities, namely, humankind. Such beings may or may not gain power through increased worship, but in any event have no relevance whatever to the fate of a human being's eternal soul or spirit. While it is true that Kelemvor's priests put forth doctrine relating to the afterlife, the Fugue Plane, the Wall of the Faithless, etc., that dogma is a lie used to bolster faith in the Judge. The truth of the afterlife is something else entirely.
3. There is a whole pantheon of true gods whose power dwarfs that of the so-called gods. They are beyond our comprehension but welcome our spirits when we die. They offer us cosmic mockery in an amount that is directly proportionate to the amount of worship we have heaped on the false gods.
Anyway, notwithstanding what I would assert is the inarguable existence of the gods, *interpreting* the existence of the gods can make for interesting discussion and storytelling.
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Songrimm
Acolyte
Germany
38 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 02:52:00
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As i have read "crucible, the ..." of late, there are some mentionigs of godly interference in the realms. i dont have my book around now so i have to use my mémory.
in one instence tempus is upset by mask and hammers his fist on his throne. as a result all battlefields in faerun expierience an earthquake. this changes some of the outcomes of the battles.
(but why tempus has six avatars at one battle still amazies me.)
at another scene oghma is surprised/confused i think, and as a result all lorekeepers in the realms get distracted.
quite a show for the influence of the gods.
but this is all in just one novel by one author. 
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 05:32:51
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| Tempus had six avatars on the battlefield because his "war wizards" have had their magic stripped from them by Mystra, and he is there to make sure that wars continue to happen. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 05:50:02
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quote:
originally posted by Songrimm
in one instence tempus is upset by mask and hammers his fist on his throne. as a result all battlefields in faerun expierience an earthquake.
Crucible was written by Troy Denning, wasn't it? |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Sigonan
Acolyte
Greece
19 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 11:40:24
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I never said that gods don't exist...
I only said that it is not absolutely necessary for a commoner to use a prayer for everything he/she does. Ok, perhaps the sailor example was not really correct (due to the large amount of superstitions these folk seem to hold on to...) but still, would Umberlee interfere to save a faithful??? I think not. I suppose it is in the portfolio of the deity and could call off a storm at will, but then there would be no storms at all!
In general, the gods control their portfolio, they are their portfolio, but it is a relationship that goes both ways (Mask is mysterious, Tempus is an awesome fighter, Lathander hates undead, Kelemvor is rightful, Mystra is... well magical, etc) |
Sigonan Darkpeeble-the multifaceted wizard |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 12:33:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Crucible was written by Troy Denning, wasn't it?
Yes, Crucible was written by Troy Denning. Great Novel!!!
quote:
Originally posted by Sigonan
I never said that gods don't exist...
I only said that it is not absolutely necessary for a commoner to use a prayer for everything he/she does. Ok, perhaps the sailor example was not really correct (due to the large amount of superstitions these folk seem to hold on to...) but still, would Umberlee interfere to save a faithful??? I think not. I suppose it is in the portfolio of the deity and could call off a storm at will, but then there would be no storms at all!
In general, the gods control their portfolio, they are their portfolio, but it is a relationship that goes both ways (Mask is mysterious, Tempus is an awesome fighter, Lathander hates undead, Kelemvor is rightful, Mystra is... well magical, etc)
I don't think Umberlee would interfere to save a ship because they prayed to her, I think it is more likely that she would destroy a ship because they didn't pray to her. It's dangerous on the seas even if you pray, it just becomes moreso if you do not. Plus, would be the belief of the sailors, whether it is true or not only the gods know.
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 15:26:21
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See, I picked sailors and Umberlee as an example for a reason. If you want an example of a non-epic deific intervention in the realms, read the part of Crusade detailing the Cormyrean (Cormyran, Cormite?) army's sailing-trip across the Sea of Fallen Stars.
And before anyone argues that the Crusade was as RSE - you're right, but the sailing-trip from Cormyr to Thesk is a fairly everyday event. And (or so it seems to me) constructed specifically to show the everyday-influence the gods have on the realms.
Furthermore, as of the end of the Time of Troubles, the gods are supposed to be serving the best interests of their worshipers, unless they're evil I suppose (the gods, not the worshipers), and as such I would say that a logical conclusion would be that they are doing their best to make their presence known.
quote:
Yes, Crucible was written by Troy Denning.
How come I'm not in the least bit surprised he includes a major natural disaster as a side-note? |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
Edited by - Kajehase on 15 Apr 2005 15:32:56 |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 15:35:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
See, I picked sailors and Umberlee as an example for a reason. If you want an example of a non-epic deific intervention in the realms, read the part of Crusade detailing the Cormyrean (Cormyran, Cormite?) army's sailing-trip across the Sea of Fallen Stars.
And before anyone argues that the Crusade was as RSE - you're right, but the sailing-trip from Cormyr to Thesk is a fairly everyday event. And (or so it seems to me) constructed specifically to show the everyday-influence the gods have on the realms.
Furthermore, as of the end of the Time of Troubles, the gods are supposed to be serving the best interests of their worshipers, unless they're evil I suppose (the gods, not the worshipers), and as such I would say that a logical conclusion would be that they are doing their best to make their presence known.
Not sure if I was confusing with my wording. I agree with you on this point. |
Edited by - Chosen of Bane on 15 Apr 2005 15:36:31 |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 15:54:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Sigonan
I never said that gods don't exist...
In general, the gods control their portfolio, they are their portfolio, but it is a relationship that goes both ways (Mask is mysterious, Tempus is an awesome fighter, Lathander hates undead, Kelemvor is rightful, Mystra is... well magical, etc)
And Umberlee is storms (but not Storm ), and so, as both me and Chosen of Bane either says outright or hints at, is to be appeased to not make your ship sink. |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 17:07:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
And Umberlee is storms (but not Storm), and so, as both me and Chosen of Bane either says outright or hints at, is to be appeased to not make your ship sink.
Actually Talos is storms. :)
And to the poster: It's pretty silly to believe that commoners don't know the gods exist and that they don't offer veneration and or worship. The gods are known and to claim that this isn't so would have people looking at you like you are insane. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 18:14:51
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
And to the poster: It's pretty silly to believe that commoners don't know the gods exist and that they don't offer veneration and or worship. The gods are known and to claim that this isn't so would have people looking at you like you are insane.
I'll summarize/paraphrase R.A. Salvatore's witty remarks during his Mortality Radio Interview regarding FR deities. His belief on the matter rested with you kuje31. How could someone deny the existence given so much of the Realms history? In fact I believe he mentioned that if he were a Realms citizen, he'd wish to see something akin to travel brouchers from each deity. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 18:36:39
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
I'll summarize/paraphrase R.A. Salvatore's witty remarks during his Mortality Radio Interview regarding FR deities. His belief on the matter rested with you kuje31. How could someone deny the existence given so much of the Realms history? In fact I believe he mentioned that if he were a Realms citizen, he'd wish to see something akin to travel brouchers from each deity.
HEHEHE.
"Oh yes, and if you worship me you get a wonderful guided tour through Dweomerheart when you die. Have a nice day." |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 18:40:18
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
"Oh yes, and if you worship me you get a wonderful guided tour through Dweomerheart when you die. Have a nice day."
Exactly, imagine Sharess' brochure.....talk about something Walmart won't put out with their Ladies Home Journal magazines. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2005 : 18:43:04
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
"Oh yes, and if you worship me you get a wonderful guided tour through Dweomerheart when you die. Have a nice day."
Exactly, imagine Sharess' brochure.....talk about something Walmart won't put out with their Ladies Home Journal magazines.
:) That would have to be in the porn shop or in the 18+ part of the comic store/news parlor. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2005 : 05:17:04
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
2. The so-called gods are nothing more than extremely powerful extra-planar entities with the unusual ability to grant spells to less powerful entities, namely, humankind. Such beings may or may not gain power through increased worship, but in any event have no relevance whatever to the fate of a human being's eternal soul or spirit. While it is true that Kelemvor's priests put forth doctrine relating to the afterlife, the Fugue Plane, the Wall of the Faithless, etc., that dogma is a lie used to bolster faith in the Judge. The truth of the afterlife is something else entirely.
Certainly a belief that a "retired" Realmsian Athar supporter would share. In addition, the Athar belief in the 'Great Unknown' could possibly relate to the concept of the real truth of the afterlife being something else that is beyond the conception of all the beings in the multiverse.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 16 Apr 2005 05:18:59 |
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elven_songstress
Learned Scribe
126 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 05:23:21
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Well I think the realms are gods heavy the gods weither seen or not are a guiding force they were reminded of this when they were cast down for not taking better care of there followers.
If you do not pay service to a diety it boils down to you are stuck in the wall of the faithless and no one wants to be there believe you me.
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We need to be reminded sometimes that a sunrise lasts but a few minutes,but its beauty can burnin our hearts eternally." |
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Oh my gods!!!
