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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Feb 2005 : 13:42:12
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Well the PCs finally defeat Cahir the Vampire from Dorgierns Crypt in City of Spider Queen and in so doing released a Player Character/NPC who I was planning on joining the campaign (COSQ looks tough so I decided to allow 5 PCs in the party)
However as the PC had fired on the party during the battle (under the Vampires Domination) the PCs decided to interogate the new PC 1 Player who runs a 10th level cleric of Tempus (CG) and a 7th level Fighter/ 1st level Divine Champion of Tempus Cohort (CN) and another player who runs a 10th level Fighter (CN) who has Tempus as a patron.
Now the cohort and the Fighter held the prisoner down while the Cleric asked the questions. By this time I had given the new player his character back so he answered the clerics question himself and in so doing gave the Cleric abit of lip. So the cleric told the other 2 characters to break the prisoners wrist which they did, the cleric then asked his question again and the prisoner again responded with abit of lip, so the cleric had the Dvine champion and fighter break one of the prisoners knee caps, which they did.
Now as far as Im concerned all 3 are guilty of commiting 2 evil acts and all 3 who claim to follow Tempus have violated that churches Dogma
From page 72 of F&P
"Warriors who employ poison or taint wells, so fields with salt, kill noncombatants,INDULGE IN TORTURE.........are to be denied the favour of the deity (Tempus), their crimes are to be published far and wide, and they are to be made to atone for their sins or perish.
Now in addition to alignment shifts (Which are pretty worthless in 3ed as theres no real penalty for changing your alignment)
I have the following options for dealing with their transgressions against Tempus
1)All 3 are kicked out of Tempus church and none of them now have Tempus as a patron this means all 3 are currently members of the False and if they any of them die then they cant be raised. (A raise dead cast by a cleric of Tempus will automaticly fail)
2)Strip the cleric of Tempus of all Spell casting ability and deny the Divine Champion cohort use of any his DC powers.
3) Hit all 3 with one of the Alternate curses from the book of vile darkness (Option 2 is an avalaible for Bestow greater curse)
The only way for a character to regain Tempus favour is to sacrifice their most powerful magical weapon to Tempus, said weapon will disappear into thin air when the character decide to do this
Coments? Suggestions?
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2005 : 14:57:24
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What were they thinking?
Oh well, did they at least heal the PC?
Anyway, I think I would apply penalities now of loss of all Divene abilities (including turn), bestow greater cruse on the Fighter 10.
As for Atonement would require different levels the Cleric should pay much more then either of the other two (The Cleric should have known better and is a leader of the faith).
I would not specofically require most powerful magic item, however such certainly could go a long way of paying for crimes.
I would use a monatary value, something like 10,000 minimun, then an additional 5,000 per divine level.
You can adjust the numbers based on wealth party has and how much you want to punish them.
Useing my numbers the Fighter 10 would need to pay 10,000
The Divine Champion would need to pay 15,000
The Cleric would need to pay 60,000 (if not enough wealth right now, slowly allow Divine levels to work, 1st 10,000 noting restored in Divine ability, each additional 5,000 paid gains a level of Divine abilities, so if paid 20,000 the Cleric would have Divine abilities as if Cleric 2 ).
There might be other ways to do this, however the Cleric certainly should pay more then either of the others IMO. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 26 Feb 2005 : 18:22:46
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| Dargoth, you could also have the PCs do a mission for the Church of Tempus to earn the deity's favour once again. This way, you could also give them more quests for the campaign. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2005 : 09:14:20
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dargoth, from my point of view you have every right (and as dm, the duty!) to let them feel tempus´ wrath.
that tempus will strip away ALL their divine powers during the atonement goes without saying. but, as much as i like rules (which is, well... not too much  ), i would stay away from such detailed rules for sacrifice ("5k gp per level" etc.).
ten thousand pieces of gold is more than the great majority of dalesmen (or waterdhavians, for that matter) will ever see in their whole live, let alone 60.000 gp. how should a cleric know that this is the proper amount of money, no matter whether it´s "paid" in coins, gems or magic items? (btw: paid to whom? or does the money simply vanish? in that case, what does tempus do with it?)
apart from that: since when can you truly buy yourself out of a religious transgression (especially one as crass as this)? we all "know" that the mediaeval selling of indulgences was a fallacy - giving your favourite gems/jewelry/magic item simply away would be the same, imo.
two examples for the "proper" way to atone for their sins (or at least, that´s the way i would chose):
- find someone worthier and support him/her. example: they have to wander the land and search for someone who is worthy to be accepted into tempus´ clergy (a young, poor warrior for example), teaching him tempus´ creeds and buying him the best warhorse, armor and weapons one can find, as well as a small abode. this might take the rules-required 60.000 GP, but in a more fitting way than simply laying them on the table for one of tempus´ divine accountants to enter in the books...
- charter a small and powerful band of mercenaries (loyal to tempus´ creeds of course), equip them properly (everyone should have at least one magic weapon, some healing potions, etc...) and leading them into a brief battle on another world/plane (snatched away by a gate the god sent), to fight for the cause of their god. this one was inspired from the principle of the "summon monster"-spell: in that case, the cleric and his band are the "monsters", who are summoned by a cleric of tempus to fight for something they don´t even know. they might come back alive and well when they die (which of course the dm doesn´t tell beforehand) or might not, important for your cleric is only that he fights well and with honor (and spent the 60.000 gp by equipping the others).
the 2nd option might fit better into CotSQ, because it doesn´t take as long as the first, and time is quite important in that adventure.
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 27 Feb 2005 : 13:28:12
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Well paying is not the best idea, that was derived from the idea of most valuable magical item to be sacificed. I almost did an Edit on that idea. As for character wealth, a 10th level should have about 49,000 in wealth, so 60,000 is not that far a reach. Of course the sacificing everything one owns makes it rather had to survive and in effect reduces the effective level of the character. Of course the quick pay has other problems as well, as the other party members might be willing to donate their own equipment to have available the Clerical abilities (members that did nothing wrong).
Atonement as per the rules is not well defines as to all aspects, there is requirement to find a Cleric to cast the spel (which certainly could be charged for) and perhaps a quest as part or all of the payment.
The reason I did not go with quest is the party is already in a very dangerious place and adding a quest on top of that most likely would reult in death. Either that or party would need to retreat (or at least the three) to do something else.
Oh other solutions could include taking level(s) away as per level drain (this also increases the chance of the entire party dying). A curse of course also reduces effective party level. A stat drain for example weakens the party as a whole is in danger.
The idea of sending a band after the three, this indeed might be a solution in some ways, however still could result in a total party kill if the three transgessors do not see the errors of their way.
Idealy the three should recognise their error and seek forgiveness (just the rules are not clear on how one is forgiven). Any solution, puts the inoncents at risk unfairly unless they were so inclined in the first place (they should disociate themselves from at least the Cleric, which results in a split party [which also most likely results in total party kill or retreat from current campaign]).
Atonement does require a payment, a better one would be actions or deeds (as oposed to in effect paying gold value), however this also results in stall of campaign one way or another (praying 8 hours a day for 1000 days, doing a quest, fasting, going back to school being some posible examples of paying the price personally)
Having the transgessors struck dead did also occured to me, however this would end the game and one thing to remember this is a game where it should be enjoyed. There really is not a good soluction unless the three select to fllow a more tolerent deity, this also puts the other two at greater danger (or splits the party.
The best soluction is to get better players however that also will most likely end game and friendships. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 28 Feb 2005 : 00:21:36
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The reason why Im favouring money over quests is that there going into the Underdark next session for COSQ and there arent any many opertunities for training new followers of Tempus or even running into another cleric of Tempus to cast Attonment.
The money is more a "Talk is cheap prove to me that you are truely sorry by sacrificing something you value"
Had this occured earlier in the campaign I would have made them do a quest. |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Octa
Learned Scribe
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 21:24:06
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Well, don't let on you are going to punish them yet, wait until they get into the underdark, then start making their misfires happen, or don't give them their spells for a couple of days, if they die so be it. I would say though that the fighter PC probably shouldn't be punished at all. He doesn't have to worship Tempus in a real way, and also he is CN so this is not crazy behavior for him.
The cleric is the one in big trouble. Figure out what his greatest wish magic Item is, put it in Maerdrymira, then have him be forced to sacrifice it to appease Tempus after the module. Chances are you can make him cry like a baby. Or heck maybe he will decide to switch deities and that can make a bunch of plot hooks too. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 21:55:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Octa
Well, don't let on you are going to punish them yet, wait until they get into the underdark, then start making their misfires happen, or don't give them their spells for a couple of days, if they die so be it. I would say though that the fighter PC probably shouldn't be punished at all. He doesn't have to worship Tempus in a real way, and also he is CN so this is not crazy behavior for him.
Delaid punishment might be a better answer considering how deep they are into the current adventure to increase chance of surviving the upcoming battles (I suspect that play has continued, unless the game gatherings are far spaced, so odds are we are talking theory) a scroce card should be kept and at least an omen should have been provided that the deity was unhappy. It would not be very consistant to allow the party leaders to complete the adventure without some kind of warning (a dream, a token, some indicator) that the deity was not happy with them.
As for the fighter he took the deity as paton god so should suffer some minor punishment, CN and adopting a more Lawful deity should not give him a free walk. Lay followers rarely recieve direct divine aid however whom is worshipped should at minimun recieve indirect aid from the god.
quote:
The cleric is the one in big trouble. Figure out what his greatest wish magic Item is, put it in Maerdrymira, then have him be forced to sacrifice it to appease Tempus after the module. Chances are you can make him cry like a baby. Or heck maybe he will decide to switch deities and that can make a bunch of plot hooks too.
I agree the Cleric should be subjected to far greater punishment then either of the other two. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 23:05:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Octa
The cleric is the one in big trouble. Figure out what his greatest wish magic Item is, put it in Maerdrymira, then have him be forced to sacrifice it to appease Tempus after the module. Chances are you can make him cry like a baby. Or heck maybe he will decide to switch deities and that can make a bunch of plot hooks too.
Oh, I like this idea!   |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2005 : 23:16:31
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Unfortunately the guy who runs the Cleric Lurks here at Candlekeep and read the thread.
(This will also unfortunately mean I cant post anymore stuff about the campaign here at Candlekeep) |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 03:38:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Unfortunately the guy who runs the Cleric Lurks here at Candlekeep and read the thread.
That is unfortunate. The rest of us still might offer ideas though, i.e. theory discussions.
quote:
(This will also unfortunately mean I cant post anymore stuff about the campaign here at Candlekeep)
Wellafter campaign has been resolved, a history can be provided if you wish. It though appears you have to restain from posting about events that you want advice on that have not been resolved. |
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sabre
Acolyte
Turkey
47 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 20:01:18
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Why did they torture the new PC in the first place?Why Didn't the newbee tell them he was under a compulsion effect?
Ý think they overreacted to this stiuation.But COSQ tend to make players very nervous...
Neverthless Church of Tempus has all the rights and authority to try to atone them if they are willing. |
sabre |
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Octa
Learned Scribe
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 22:44:40
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yeah for the cleric to really worship tempus he would gone totally klingon and challenged the guy to a duel....
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 22:59:58
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Apparently the Torture incident was born out of frustration with the players inablity to roleplay his character. (Which I have to agree with, the new guy doesnt Roleplay at all)
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 23:23:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Apparently the Torture incident was born out of frustration with the players inablity to roleplay his character. (Which I have to agree with, the new guy doesnt Roleplay at all)
That is unfortunate, however your more experienced players IMO should have taken into consideration the fact was a new player.
Also as I recall you turned over an NPC to the player when released from complusion. If this is correct the older players certainly should have understood that an NPC was converted into a PC ad the player at best had a guideline on the character having not played up from level one.
Also I suspect the new player watching waiting for the turn over noticed the nature of the PCs , which might have been inflexible in dealing with outsiders and responded in time.
As you indicated you can not talk about future events and might be less inclined to discuss posible problems with events occured already because they might indirectly effect your game. I however am safe from that problem, at best some might say independence is useful and at worst I am interferring in an on going game.
Not sure how much theory can be discussed about what appears to be a violation of canon law, so what remains is the actual game. In this it gets hard to call, however the newest player has less burden then either the DM or the older players.
Perhaps as DM you might have selected a better way to introduce the
NPC to become the player, also the DM perhaps should have better educated the new player as to personality and Wisdon of the new PC.
The older players going against their faith certainly shares a large part of this burden, far more then the DM (which only provided a person to be rescued thoughwas not in chains). Act against your deity because it is easy is still the fatal flaw. |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2005 : 04:41:20
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If they knew they would be losing the favor of Tempus, would they have engaged in torture? Was there any warning before those actions were taken? Did the players know what the consequences were? After all, would a player really know the same information as a cleric in his early-mid 20s in the world of Faerun? Was there any warning as to the consequences?
For example, I DM, among others, a 200+ year old elf wizard 23/arch mage 1. The player doesn't have the PHB memorized, hasn't read many FR novels, and doesn't have the same grasp of my world as I do as DM. Much of a 200+year old elf's knowledge is assumed, such as knowing that casting fireball at a red dragon won't work, or that a demon is immune to electricity. These are things a 200+year old arch wizard would know, but a 20+ year old engineer might not.
My point is, were the players (not the characters) in question completely aware that they would be jeopardizing their ties to Tempus by torturing this prisoner? If not, then fair warning should have been given. If the players were aware of this, then I recommend doing whatever feels right for the flow of the campaign. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Octa
Learned Scribe
USA
138 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2005 : 00:08:07
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You know the fact that this poor guy who is playing in his first game had this happen probably isn't going to keep playing.
I would assume if you were going to play a cleric of tempus you would at least read the write up in the FRCS and he is already 10th level. |
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GothWulf
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2005 : 18:56:36
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DEFINATELY strip the cleric of all divine abilities EXCEPT for the ability to cast Atonement<house rule I started years ago....you're in the middle of nowhere...something happens where you have no choice but to break your vows...you lose everything, but can still cast that ONE spell...and instead of some high priest somewhere giving you a quest a minor servent of said diety shows up and give it to you instead...though you STILL have to earn your forgiveness>
Wulfe |
Singer of Sharess, Chosen of Selune, and Drinking Buddy of Tymora |
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Sorenna_Melruth
Acolyte
24 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 23:10:32
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Here is what I would do in this situation!
Since they are going into the COSQ adventure have them know there deity's displeasure naturally the Cleric will loose abilities because they willingly broke the rules of the church's dogma the other two are as guilty.
Yes honor is important to a Tempest worshipper and such would result in a fight, but it should have been a one on one fight not commanding people to break knee caps or the such.
Have Tempest vist there dreams, to have them repent or even send a hearld of the god, you can do that as well. Prehaps have them recover something or protect someone they will find along the way.
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History is written by those who survive such terriable times,and every person is a hero, and every person is a villan it depends on who's telling the tale. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 23:30:11
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| How did the character get to 10th level? |
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Sorenna_Melruth
Acolyte
24 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2005 : 23:33:40
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Blind Luck being my guess?
Tymora watchs out for small children and fools? |
History is written by those who survive such terriable times,and every person is a hero, and every person is a villan it depends on who's telling the tale. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 03:45:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Sorenna_Melruth
Tymora watchs out for small children and fools?
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2005 : 04:05:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
How did the character get to 10th level?
The answer is with difficulty
The Player has run 3 PCs so far
His first character in my Banites on the March campaign was a tiefling thief.
Who during a fight with a Drow patrol used a potion of invisablity to get behind the drow warriors so he could sneak attack a Drow wizard. He did his sneak attack, he rolled a 1, his invisablity potion ended, the patrols cleric cast hold person on him, the Thief failed and the Drow Wizard the character tried to sneak attack coup de graced him.
His 2nd character was a Half Orc Cleric of Tempus who died in the final battle of Skip Williams Woe to Mistledale module
Which brings us to his current character the Human Cleric of Tempus who tortured the PC |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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elven_songstress
Learned Scribe
126 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2005 : 22:15:35
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I can understand that the new guy might not be able to role play and the action was born of fustration, but he needs to look at how good HIS role playing is by total abandonment of his Church's Decree's.
I think he should still get punished if it says distinctly what will happen.
Remember if you don't put your foot down people will keep doing it, thinking they can get away with it.
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We need to be reminded sometimes that a sunrise lasts but a few minutes,but its beauty can burnin our hearts eternally." |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2005 : 21:56:40
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strip the cleric AND the divine champion of their powers, until they attone. There´s no way to "take it easy" in this case, because both are representants of their god in Faerun. To act against the dogma of their own god... Jo, in the Holy Bible suffer much worst for less than this...
So, yes. Strip them of their powers. The actions of the characters need to have an effect in the world. The right and the wrong actions. If you give them the rewards for their good actions, and ease the burden when they do something wrong, or stupid, this will end to ruin your game, and the game of all the other players...  |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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elven_songstress
Learned Scribe
126 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2005 : 23:25:16
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| I'm with you on that one Choosen ^_~ |
We need to be reminded sometimes that a sunrise lasts but a few minutes,but its beauty can burnin our hearts eternally." |
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SoulLord
Seeker
Mexico
62 Posts |
Posted - 12 Apr 2005 : 17:49:40
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I think that for starters the players should have been warned of the consequences of their actions.
"as you consider breaking his wrist you remember Tempus commands against the use of torture in particular a story you heard about a priest who tortured a prisioner losing all divine favor untl he atoned"
If even with such a warning the pc's proceeded with the torture then i would definitely remove their divine casting abilities until they atoned.
Since this has already happened perhaps Tempus just doent grant the priest all the spells he requests to show his displeasure. |
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elven_songstress
Learned Scribe
126 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 05:25:09
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| I'm curious for an Update on what happened.. |
We need to be reminded sometimes that a sunrise lasts but a few minutes,but its beauty can burnin our hearts eternally." |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2005 : 10:03:16
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We actually played again today
The Deal is he cant cast any cleric spells higher than 3rd and he had to agree to try and atone for his sins (ive soemthing planned for later (but as the player of the Cleric of Tempus frequents these boards I wont say what)
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Dealing with a Cleric of Tempus who uses Torture
