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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One theory I have for why all of the clones awoke at once is because of this vampiric clone. The fact that one of the clones was now undead may have caused some weird magical effect that triggered the awakening of all the other clones.

But that's just a theory. No one knows why it really happened.

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Originally posted by tauster

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One theory I have for why all of the clones awoke at once is because of this vampiric clone. The fact that one of the clones was now undead may have caused some weird magical effect that triggered the awakening of all the other clones.

But that's just a theory. No one knows why it really happened.

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i like that theory. the manshoon wars is one of my favourite story-elements; i have one clone active in my night below- campaign, one of the players had some business with him but doesnīt even suspect who he is. thatīll be good for some nice surprises in the future!

iirc, "cloak and dager" mentiones about 40 clones awakening all at once. i donīt like the "canonical outcome" of only a handful of them surviving, so i started thinking about what could have happened to the other ones. here are some possibilities:

- getting trapped by the phaerimm under the anauoch, and somehow changed so that he is not considered an identical clone anymore. the phaerimm use that manshoon as the leader of an "elite task force" that handles problems their other minions (for example the beholders of oolthul (sp?) or the charmed asabis) couldnīt.

several of them could be in hideouts really far away from faerun (i.e. the mainland):
- the hordelands, anchorome or maztica
- an unknown island somewhere on "the other side of toril"
- another planet in realmspace (one idea: manshoon polymorphed into an anadian halfling and tries to get the trade with powderpuff under his control )
- another chrystal sphere (no idas yet)
- another plane altogether...


any other ideas?

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One theory I have for why all of the clones awoke at once is because of this vampiric clone. The fact that one of the clones was now undead may have caused some weird magical effect that triggered the awakening of all the other clones.

But that's just a theory. No one knows why it really happened.

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Originally posted by Steven Schend

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One theory I have for why all of the clones awoke at once is because of this vampiric clone. The fact that one of the clones was now undead may have caused some weird magical effect that triggered the awakening of all the other clones.

But that's just a theory. No one knows why it really happened.

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Well, I know why it happened, but I'm not telling!

Steven

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Well, there's the ideas from that other link posted (thanks, Sarta).

Other ideas were never solidly set. We'd hoped to set Manshoon up as a lurking menace of opportunity and a major wandering threat. Before the M-Wars, he was always up in Zhentil Keep or the Citadel of the Raven plotting away. After the dust-up, he's forced to stay constantly on the run, on his guard, and using up all his carefully hidden away contingency plans in hopes of staying alive another day.

In effect, we turned him from being a wizardly despot and leader into a terrorist isolated and estranged from the terrorist group(s) he founded.

As always, you can do what you will of it, but officially, having the 3 Amigos where they're at works okay. If you need more, I noted other options previously (undead forms, ghosts, possession/mind swapping, etc.)

Remember that he's only a ravening madman out to blindly kill when he's within range of another Manshoon clone, so as long as they stay discrete distance away (and outside of the official eyes), there could be more still (if you so choose):

up in the Tears of Selune/on the Rock of Bral;

perhaps hiding among the settlers of the Borderlands in Maztica;

maybe he's trading magics with the mysterious spellcasters of Kozakura or Shou Lung;

calling in favors with genies could have taken a Manshoon away to the south and al-Qadim;

get the idea?

Have fun, and remember that ALL the disenfranchised Manshoons, while they may want other things, would definitely do anything (aside from revealing themselves gratuitiously and opening themselves to risk) to foul up any plans of Fzoul.....

Steven

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Why the hell is Halaster allowing a Manshoon clone to live with him? And why doesn't the clone go beserk and try to kill everything in the Undermountain?

>ahem<

Halaster sends greetings and a note: "For the same reason I once delivered a gibbering mouther unto a fellow mage's bed chambers--variety."

Manshoon's note and answer to your query: "Reasons twofold--I am far too well-mannered to go berserk, and I have better things to do than kill the pets of my host, as infinite and oft-regenerative as they are."

Geez, I'm beginning to remember why I stopped writing in the Realms--the random notes dropping out of thin air around me....

Steven
who thinks it's a very good thing the Manshoon of Undermountain isn't interested in establishing a Zhentish trade route through Skullport....but he wonders what he's up to in talks with various and sundry slavers, illithids, and githyanki..... >:)

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According to my notes and mental recall, Sememmon has been doing the clone shuffle for at least a century or so. Thus, his former mentor/master is most likely at least as old and more likely older still. Keep in mind that each of them has to have made some reputation for himself before joining the Zhents, and their histories make it more than a few decades back.

If forced into an opinion, I'd roughly guess (also supported by Zhentarim history, which George and others can cehck better than I at the moment (back in Wisconsin for the holiday)) that Manshoon's been alive and kicking in original and cloned bodies for at least 200 years.

Steven

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Gerath Hoan, about Manshoon: I of course prefer my original, but the gorget (which of course by its name should be a throat collar, and not any sort of mask) is okay as a distinctive look for ONE of the clones. I prefer to think the REAL Manshoon is in hiding somewhere, watching his “lesser selves” operating, and awaiting his chance to strike at Fzoul at the same time as one of his clones does. It’s not just a matter of revenge, it’s a matter of Fzoul’s perversion of the Zhentarim into something less subtle and less effective than Manshoon intended it to be, more tied to the gods and less to subtly ruling and influencing Faerun through an ever-stronger brotherhood of mages (something Mystra would of course have supported, once Manshoon got past the “culling the magelings” stage).
I’ll get back to you with some suggestions on what some of the Manshoons are ‘up to’ (particularly the one co-operating with Fzoul in the Zhentarim).

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To Gerath Hoan, re. Manshoon: The Manshoon who’s part of the Zhentarim remains a soft-spoken, almost purring man who dislikes being dirty or appearing ridiculous, prefers close-fitting and fairly plain-of-hue garments to all others, and is constantly alert and careful of his words. He rarely betrays his true feelings or future plans or intentions, and delights in surprising people with deeds they’ve not suspected he was going to perform.
This Manshoon has convinced Fzoul that he’s a changed man, by the simple expedient of allowing Fzoul to magically probe his mind and see the truth -- because this particular clone of Manshoon IS a changed man. Relieved not to be heading the Zhentarim (and constantly having to watch others for treachery and deal with the constant stream of “they’ve screwed up again” headaches that running the Network has come to entail) any longer, this Manshoon has returned to his other love: magic.
Rather than enjoying the power of manipulating people, he’s turned to perfecting new spells and variants of existing magics, tinkering particularly with ways of linking spells to each other, so if Spell A is cast and then particular conditions are fulfilled (such as the caster of Spell A being wounded after casting Spell A, or new foes arriving and attacking that caster after Spell A is cast), Spell B will then be unleashed without anyone having to actually perform its casting).
The ‘new’ Manshoon keeps to spell-guarded chambers in a handful of Zhent strongholds, always informing Fzoul of his movements and whereabouts, and communicates only with Fzoul and Fzoul’s chosen go-betweens, and with agents Fzoul lends him to employ on magic- and intelligence-gathering and -casting expeditions (agents who are of course loyal spies of Fzoul, and who are changed regularly to keep Manshoon from corrupting them). Manshoon no longer deals directly with non-Zhents or travels the Realms; instead, his soft-spoken, sophisticated agents (mainly clerics of Bane who possess some personal sorcerous abilities) speak and act for him.
His most powerful current agents are the coldly sadistic Aumlar Thaelren (LE male human Clr11 of Bane, Sor5), known as “Glittergloat” behind his back amongst Zhentarim for the way his eyes brighten as he openly enjoys the pain and suffering of others; Yethtra Malander (LE female human Clr9 of Bane, Sor4), a 6-and-a-half-foot tall, very slender but cat-sleek and curvaceous woman with back-of-knee-length straight black hair sometimes worn in a mare’s tail and sometimes piled up around a tiara in that hairdo known in the Realms as a ‘crown,’ who’s rumored to be Manshoon’s lover and to bear tattoos he’s personally spell-seared into her skin (and believed by some Zhents to be a weapon Manshoon is forging against Fzoul, but by others to be Fzoul’s unshakably-loyal-to-the-Chosen-of-Bane way of controlling Manshoon); and Onselan Durkree (LE male human Clr7 of Bane, Sor2), a purring, very handsome young man who enjoys dressing up as either gender and manipulating people into betraying their secrets to him and doing his bidding.
This Manshoon knows of dozens of portals he can readily use to escape Fzoul’s spells and scrutiny, but has not yet shown any signs of doing so -- or of betraying Fzoul in any way.
He does seem amused by Fzoul’s struggles to deal with incompetence, corruption, and treachery within the Zhentarim, and to be enjoying the show. What he’s waiting for, or whom he might be in league with, remain mysteries to Fzoul and other Zhentarim as well as to the wider Realms.
On a recent occasion when he was attacked by several ambitious Zhent mages, several liches and half-illithid sorcerers appeared in this Manshoon’s chambers to hurl spells on his behalf, vanquishing all of his attackers save one . . . whom he spared to “spread wise words” to all Zhents not to waste their lives trying to best or bother him.


So saith Ed. Ah, yes, Manshoon. He once stopped a Zhent soldier from slashing my down-and-wounded character with the gentle command, “No. Never damage useful goods.”
Of course, that promptly gave said Zhent some ideas about how my defenseless body could be useful, but his hesitation about starting to ah, enjoy his train of thought until Manshoon had departed gave me time to muster strength enough to reward him properly. With the knife sheathed at the back of my neck, under my hair, attached to my black-ribbon choker. Eyeballs pop when pierced, did you know?

THO

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Originally posted by khorne

Code of Ethics?

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Originally posted by kuje31

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Originally posted by khorne

Code of Ethics?

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Aye. Ed's mentioned the Code a few times. Basically it's the old comic code. Good has to always win, no mention of sex or sexuality or sensuality, no bi, lesbian, gay characters, etc. This is why brothals were renamed festhalls.

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Originally posted by khorneDid some catholics(pun intended) run WOTC at the time or what happened?

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Originally posted by kuje31
Wrong company, it was TSR's Code but WOTC still has some of these "rules" also. Look at the flack for the book of erotic fantasy.

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Originally posted by SiriusBlack

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Originally posted by kuje31
Wrong company, it was TSR's Code but WOTC still has some of these "rules" also. Look at the flack for the book of erotic fantasy.

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Good point. I was honestly surprised at how big an outcry that tome caused. And if I recall correctly, that was before Nipplegate.

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Originally posted by kuje31

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Originally posted by SiriusBlack

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Originally posted by kuje31
Wrong company, it was TSR's Code but WOTC still has some of these "rules" also. Look at the flack for the book of erotic fantasy.

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Good point. I was honestly surprised at how big an outcry that tome caused. And if I recall correctly, that was before Nipplegate.

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Same here since I own a copy and there isn't much in there that's really shocking. I'm not sure what the nipplegate reference is to but if it's to fiend folio then FF was out before that book.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It's my understanding that the Comics Code Authority was created by DC and Marvel, in a successful attempt to squash their rival EC Comics. EC published horror titles (including Tales From the Crypt), and the other two created the CCA because they knew that it would exclude EC -- and this made EC look bad to the parents...

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

It's my understanding that the Comics Code Authority was created by DC and Marvel, in a successful attempt to squash their rival EC Comics. EC published horror titles (including Tales From the Crypt), and the other two created the CCA because they knew that it would exclude EC -- and this made EC look bad to the parents...

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The CCA was originally written up by the directors over at DC. Marvel further endorsed the system after the rivalry with EC started affecting their joint sales figures.

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Originally posted by Krafus
Well, I'm not Sirius, but I bet that Nipplegate is a reference to a certain event at a Superbowl...

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Originally posted by Shadovar

But can I inquire is the real Manshoon still alive or dead?

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

One theory I have for why all of the clones awoke at once is because of this vampiric clone. The fact that one of the clones was now undead may have caused some weird magical effect that triggered the awakening of all the other clones.

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Originally posted by crazedventurers

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

One theory I have for why all of the clones awoke at once is because of this vampiric clone. The fact that one of the clones was now undead may have caused some weird magical effect that triggered the awakening of all the other clones.

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I have always assumed that the real Manshoon deliberately let them loose at the same time knowing that they would all end up teleporting in to that point and therefore battling Fzoul and Lord Orgauth hoping that the clones would finish those two off and any allies they summoned to support them as more and more and more Manshoons teleported in.

I see this as Manshoon culling his most dangerous enemies within the Zhentarim with the caveat to other senior Zhantarim of 'well that shouldn't have happened, (sorry), I can't imagine how it did, unless The Great Foe was meddling, so lets go and sort him out as it is his fault not mine, and for the glory of the Brotherhood they must be avenged"

So that way he removes the two 'real' threats to his complete control of the Zhenarim/Zhentil Keeep and has a very plausible excuse that it was not a deliberate attack against Bane/The Keep/The Zhentarim and so those factions (Priests, Beholders, Keepers, Zhentists etc) don't gang up on him to exact 'justice' for moving against the Brotherhood.

It also:
1) weeds out a few of the weaker clones

2) allows the ones that 'survive' to become stronger

3) reveals (during the conflict) allies of Fzoul and Orgauth and hopefully kills them too/allows them to be dealt with later

4) advertises to other enemies (Harpers, Red Wizards etc) that if you go after Manshoon then you too will face 40+ wizards of power who just keep coming and coming and coming....... so it's best to leave me alone

5) reinforces to Zhentil Keep/Zhentarim that Manshoon is the real power, so just all fall in line or else!! therefore giving him at least a few years less grief and less feuding within the ranks allowing him to actually get one or two projects finished

6) and (without him knowing) delivers Mystra's edict of promoting magic, because every Wizard in Faerun will eventually hear of the constant stream of powerful clones turning up one after the other and that gets them wondering how Manshoon managed such a powerful spell? which leads to lots of independant spell research and also to the more agressive Archmages actually hunting Manshoon down to get the spell from him. So both Manshoon and those who attack him are strengthened (and weakened) in magical battle, meaning that they all go away and devise even more magic spells to best Manshoon/keep Himself protected from rampant Archmages etc.

So maybe it was Mystra that ensured all of Manshoon Clones activated at once, to teach him a lesson for his ongoing arrogance of lack of true magical study and also as a seed to encourage the development of magic in the Realms from many many more Wizards?

Just a few random thoughts

Damian

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