| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 06:42:58
|
Time for a Rant
Remember this little gem
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/news/20050126news
Well thanks to Roberts article and WOTC one of my Players went out and bought LEOF
Needless to say I could just about strangle Robert Wiese
What on Earth made WOTC think that LEOF was for the eyes of Players? Its is quite clearly a Dms source book like the FRC
Well I can tell you next gaming session Im going to prempt Robert before he can write a "10 Reasons for Players to buy Champions of Ruin" article and Ill tell my Players this book is not for them
End Rant
|
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 17:02:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Time for a Rant
Oh good, I love rants. I hear some rants get raves.
quote:
Well thanks to Roberts article and WOTC one of my Players went out and bought LEOF
Is the player to be punished too?
quote:
Needless to say I could just about strangle Robert Wiese
I love violence. There's just too much sex in the world these days and not enough good old fashioned violence. Thanks goodness for the Realms we have the insane dragons and insane fey'ri that will cause destruction.
quote:
What on Earth made WOTC think that LEOF was for the eyes of Players? Its is quite clearly a Dms source book like the FRC
Hmmm, how to approach this? Okay, I'll go this route. They are business. They don't care whether a DM or player purchases it as long as it's purchased. To that end, they will market it in any way, shape, form. I'm surprised there isn't an article
"Ten Reasons Dragonlance fans should buy LEOF"
and
"Ten Reasons Ebberon fans should buy LEOF"
quote:
Well I can tell you next gaming session Im going to prempt Robert before he can write a "10 Reasons for Players to buy Champions of Ruin" article and Ill tell my Players this book is not for them
And what if your players decide to tell you to....ummmm, well, let me rephrase. What if they decide to ignore your mandate? Would mandate be the right word there for what you'll do?
Seriously, what are you going to do now that one of your players has LEOF and what will you do if in the future one or more continues to buy what you consider DM only products?
SB |
 |
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 20:55:50
|
Oh, I love this. That's sarcasm if you couldn't tell.
What you're saying is "Players in general and my players in particular are too dumb and/or munchkiny to separate what they as players know from what their characters know."
Go you. I'm sure your players must love your games.
(Yes, I'm in a bad mood anyway. But this still irritated me.) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 21:28:55
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Oh, I love this. That's sarcasm if you couldn't tell.
<Raises hand> I could tell. Do I get a reward? |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 21:50:12
|
 You're just as sarcastic as I am, if not more. You have an unfair advantage. 
But okay, you get a cookie.
[::hands you a cookie:Sirius_Black@sarcasm.::] |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 21:58:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
You're just as sarcastic as I am, if not more. You have an unfair advantage.
But okay, you get a cookie.
[::hands you a cookie:Sirius_Black@sarcasm.::]
Oh goodie. Thank you for the compliment and the cookie. I love the latter since I'm a BTVS fan. And I hope your mood improves or day gets better.
SB
And Dargoth,
I hope you don't feel ganged up on. I'm serious about wanting to know how you plan to address your current situation with your players and how you think to avoid similar situations in the future. |
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 22:41:33
|
Generally speaking my players only buy the FR source books I say is ok for players ie Races of Faerun, The Players guide to Faerun etc. So ussually its not a problem.
In my book anything with Monster stats is clearly not for the Players (Im half expecting WOTC to do a 10 Reasons why Players should buy The Dungeon masters guide 2 or Monster manual IV if they ever do one)
Some of my players read the FR novels which can create some problems. For example one of my Player is reading Richard Lee Byers Year of Rouge Dragon series and another player (Who doesnt read the novels) wanted to take a Dragon Familiar (using the Feat from the Draconomicon) so I was some what concerned about that, as it turned out the Wizard died before he got there so the issue never arose.
My group has
3 Novel Readers (including myself)
3 Non Novel readers
So theres no discussing stuff from the novels with other guys.
No acting on knowledge your Character doesnt have.
If you think your character does know something from one of the novels then you pass the DM a note.
Which Ill say
Yes you know it, No you dont know or Do a knowledge X check
|
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 22:50:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Generally speaking my players only buy the FR source books I say is ok for players ie Races of Faerun, The Players guide to Faerun etc. So ussually its not a problem.
No disrespect, but you must be the most dominating person I've ever met in gaming to get them to agree to that. That's quite a feat. I've never encountered any situation where a DM would have that type of control. Then again, I've also never encountered a DM that would mandate such a thing. I can't imagine with any group I had one of the DMs or myself saying that when I DMed. The players would be laughing thinking it was a joke.
quote:
So theres no discussing stuff from the novels with other guys.
In gaming or out of gaming?
quote:
No acting on knowledge your Character doesnt have.
Can't they do that with the gaming products as well? |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 22:51:19
|
| Without being sarcastic, I have to agree. I know I certainly would ignore any DM telling me what gaming materials I could and couldn't buy -- it's my dollar, I'll spend it how I want. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 17 Mar 2005 22:52:22 |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 22:53:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Without being sarcastic, I have to agree. I know I certainly would ignore any DM telling me what gaming materials I could and couldn't buy -- it's my dollar, I'll spend it how I want.
No you won't. I forbid you as senior Great Reader from buying any future FR products without my approval.
Let it be so,
SB |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 23:19:06
|
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Without being sarcastic, I have to agree. I know I certainly would ignore any DM telling me what gaming materials I could and couldn't buy -- it's my dollar, I'll spend it how I want.
No you won't. I forbid you as senior Great Reader from buying any future FR products without my approval.
Let it be so,
SB
Okay. I'll just tell Big Al you won't let me buy Realms stuff, and we'll see what he has to say about it.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 23:20:02
|
Im currently playing in a SW campaign and a Worlds Largest Dungeon campaign and soon an Eberron campaign, and as Im playing ion those campaigns I havent gone out and bought or Readth Eberron campaign setting or the Galactic Campaign setting for SW.
In short when Im a player I prefer to be suprised and learn about the setting by playing in it.
And obviously I cant Stop my players from FR books but I can tell which ones I dont want them to buy
|
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 23:45:09
|
Obviously, I find this to somewhat . . . well, stupid. Actually, insulting. I can see that you don't mean to order their lives, but I feel this is over-nannyism in the extreme.
At the very least, a player with the facts should be able to better play his/her character. It's easier to see what that character does and doesn't know.
I think it's the sign of a lazy player or an overbearing DM (or both) if this sort of things is going on. As I said, it sounds like you consider the player (which now includes yourself) to be unable to tell the difference between him/herself and the character, and only the DM has the smarts to figure it out.
I'm in a tabletop game here at my college, playing a 10th (very soon 11th) level psychic warrior in a homebrew world. Even the new player, who's never played any D&D before, can tell the difference between what he knows and what Jeremiah (his half-giant character) knows. There's no secret note-passing -- even to the OOC knowledge that our bard pickpocketed Jeremiah and the fourth character, Benjamin, and hasn't revealed all the gold she's found by far.
I really don't see how you could play in Eberron or Star Wars without knowing something about the game. I understand the suprise factor, but this seems to put too much burden on the DM -- and far too little on the player. I'd never play in a game where I couldn't make character decisions on my own. I can't understand how you can. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 23:54:57
|
| Well I guess this may just have to be a case where we agree to disagree |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Mar 2005 : 23:57:18
|
. . . 
Dang. I guess that means I actually have to agree on something. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 02:47:12
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Without being sarcastic, I have to agree. I know I certainly would ignore any DM telling me what gaming materials I could and couldn't buy -- it's my dollar, I'll spend it how I want.
I agree as well. I buy what products I want to read--I'm a Realms fan and I try to read as much FR lore as possible. I also try to read all the novels. I'm not a DM, but I don't care. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 03:09:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
At the very least, a player with the facts should be able to better play his/her character. It's easier to see what that character does and doesn't know.
I remember my first Realms group, at least two of us had Ruins of Undermountain. Thus, the one not DMing knew what was in the massive dungeon. However, we didn't use player knowledge when role playing our characters. Not to mention, we both knew how much as DMs we modified stuff. Thus, even if Room X was to contain orcs, there was nothing to say that when I DMed, it would perhaps contain vampires instead. |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 03:10:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Okay. I'll just tell Big Al you won't let me buy Realms stuff, and we'll see what he has to say about it.
Shaking in my boots here...can you tell? Does it show?
Remember my mandate come August, no Waterdeep novel for you. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 03:29:38
|
I can dig trying to keep some separation of character and player knowledge. But to me, it doesn't matter if I've read a book or not -- I think about what my character knows, not what I know. Case in point: while on an adventure, the thief in our group walked into a gelatinous cube. Now I personally knew it was a bad idea, but my minotaur didn't -- so he reached into the cube to try to rescue the thief. Needless to say, that little maneuver complicated the encounter for everyone else!
Oh, and SB? You think you can stop me from getting the Waterdeep book? That's like trying to stop Drizzt from whining about how tough it is to be a drow! |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 03:38:37
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I can dig trying to keep some separation of character and player knowledge. But to me, it doesn't matter if I've read a book or not -- I think about what my character knows, not what I know.
*nods* I'd say that not allowing players to read novels or sourcebooks to prevent meta-gaming can be seen as an insult to their intelligence. But whatever works for the group, I suppose. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 03:53:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, and SB? You think you can stop me from getting the Waterdeep book? That's like trying to stop Drizzt from whining about how tough it is to be a drow!
 |
|
|
|
Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 04:34:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
*nods* I'd say that not allowing players to read novels or sourcebooks to prevent meta-gaming can be seen as an insult to their intelligence. But whatever works for the group, I suppose.
 Im not even going to dignify that with a response |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 04:46:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Im not even going to dignify that with a response
Well in the attempt to make sure it doesn't get to hot in here, I'll try an interpretation of what I feel Rinonalyrna Fathomlin was addressing by her statement...
If I'm wrong RF be kinder to me than you were to The Forsaken House
What I think was being conveyed was, why do you feel it will become that problematic for these players to obtain certain gaming products like LEOF? Have they shown a history in the past where they lacked the maturity or intelligence to understand the difference between what they know and/or what their players know? Was there a bad situation with something like this in your gaming past? I'm very curious as to what necessitated what many here apparently consider a heavy handed action. |
|
|
|
Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 09:10:57
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Without being sarcastic, I have to agree. I know I certainly would ignore any DM telling me what gaming materials I could and couldn't buy -- it's my dollar, I'll spend it how I want.
No you won't. I forbid you as senior Great Reader from buying any future FR products without my approval.
Let it be so,
SB
Okay. I'll just tell Big Al you won't let me buy Realms stuff, and we'll see what he has to say about it.
  Listen not, Wooly. Go get all the Realms material ye can find  |
Alaundo
Candlekeep Forums Head Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
An Introduction to Candlekeep - by Ed Greenwood
The Candlekeep Compendium - Tomes of Realmslore penned by Scribes of Candlekeep
|
|
|
|
tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 10:48:02
|
there´s another problem with "forbidden" player knowledge that hasn´t come up here but seems to me more important than possible metagaming (which should be no problem at all with mature players):
when i play in a campaign, i don´t read the module first, period.
sure, i could read it and separate in-character and out-character- knowledge without any problems, but the whole thing would be a lot less fun to me! the same applies to most sourcebooks, in particular those like LEoF, where most of the content is background for adventures.
would i use something from LEoF for example, i´d advise my players not to buy the book. instead, i copy the infos from the book i deem important/essential for their respective characters or that should be common knowledge etc. perhaps i write an introductory short story or things like that.
my players think likewise; no one would "snoop" into sourcebooks or novels that deal with gaming-relevant stuff without asking me. that has absolutely nothing to do with my "authority as dm" or "being a domitating person", and neither do i revel in it nor do my players harbor bad feelings against me.
it´s just that you simply can not be really surprised when knowing important stuff beforehand. and surprise, like tension, is a major part of roleplaying experience.
that does not mean this "policy" is absolute: it´s more a guideline than a hard and fast rule, but one that works very well for us. i imagine it would be a lot harder when a group has more than one "realms-junkies" (like me) or the junky is not the one dm´ing, so i think your points of view valid for different groups.
|
Edited by - tauster on 18 Mar 2005 11:59:29 |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 17:50:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by tauster
i imagine it would be a lot harder when a group has more than one "realms-junkies" (like me) or the junky is not the one dm´ing, so i think your points of view valid for different groups.
Perhaps that's the difference. The majority of people I gamed with in the past since the early 90s and all of them now are passionate about the Realms. They delight in reading novels and at times other products that contain Realms lore. To have a rule or guideline, whatever floats your boat, that says don't read this, would be insulting to them as fellow Realms fans.
Moreover, the vast majority have all been adults capable of making their own decisions. If they have ruined something because they read about it beforehand well then I've gamed with the best damn set of actors in the world who all deserve an Academy Award. But, then again, I don't follow something in a sourcebook letter by letter. Thus, what starts out as appearing to be the "fours sons of Vyshaan" may turn out to be a trap designed by the characters' enemies in Freeport. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2005 : 23:50:14
|
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Im not even going to dignify that with a response
Well in the attempt to make sure it doesn't get to hot in here, I'll try an interpretation of what I feel Rinonalyrna Fathomlin was addressing by her statement...
If I'm wrong RF be kinder to me than you were to The Forsaken House
LOL!
quote:
What I think was being conveyed was, why do you feel it will become that problematic for these players to obtain certain gaming products like LEOF? Have they shown a history in the past where they lacked the maturity or intelligence to understand the difference between what they know and/or what their players know? Was there a bad situation with something like this in your gaming past? I'm very curious as to what necessitated what many here apparently consider a heavy handed action.
Yes, Sirius Black, that was more or less what I was trying to say. And I apologize if my comment came across as rude. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 01:10:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Yes, Sirius Black, that was more or less what I was trying to say. And I apologize if my comment came across as rude.
Glad I got something right. Thanks for being tolerant of my attempts at an interpretation. |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 02:48:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Yes, Sirius Black, that was more or less what I was trying to say. And I apologize if my comment came across as rude.
Glad I got something right. Thanks for being tolerant of my attempts at an interpretation.
No problem--I appreciate it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Mareka
Learned Scribe
Canada
125 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 18:58:27
|
I'm the only person in my group who bought LEoF, and I'm not the DM. He went through the book and said outright what sections he was going to use and not to read them if I wanted to be surprised. It was easy enough for me to skip those sections. I can always go back and read them after the campaign. And though I know a lot about the Realms, I'm not going to tell people who don't want to read everything, secrets that would reveal things about the storyline we're playing through. Besides, as Sirius said, the DM may alter things. It comes down to trust- that the players don't purposely look up information in order to gain information the PCs are seeking in the game, or start looking up the monster in the middle of a combat with it (which amazingly enough, I've seen people do!)
I've played in games, too, where there was almost zero access to information, and I lost interest rather quickly because I felt no connection to the setting at all. I imagine there are other detailed oriented players who would feel the same way. |
|
|
|
SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2005 : 20:18:26
|
| The problem is, if you label a book DMs only, guess what? You end of with City of the Spider Queen sales all over again. It doesn't matter WHAT material is in the book, as long as it's on shiney paper, an unnecessary hardcover, and a $20+ price tag, WOTC must make everyone think they need to buy it. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Gods Robert Wiese has a lot to answer for
