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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 12:59:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Back when CoV was announced Sean said that Helm got a fair bit of coverage in CoV (this was around 6 months ago) however a couple of people over at the WOTC are now saying theres not alot of love for Helm in CoV... I wonder if something got cut from CoV? Web Enhancement?
Dargoth who doesnt have CoV yet
Dargoth, I for one really like the CoV, I feel for you for not having it yet. As for the Helm discussion, if you check the previous page of this thread a poster (the same as on the WOTC boards) stated his discontent and I (and Wooly) replied a couple of times. In one of those posts I listed some of the stuff in there that his Helm specific, if you're interested, check it out. |
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seankreynolds
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
91 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 13:51:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Cam Beul
Glad to see you back, Sean. Can't wait to check out CoV when it hits shelves in my area.
But I read from the WotC forums that good nodes ended up not being included in CoV. Do you think that I read wrong, or that it was some of the stuff changed(removed) during development that you weren't aware of?
Like I said, I don't have the final book in my hands, but I know that T and I _wrote_ that stuff, so it exists somewhere on file even if it doesn't end up in the book. Perhaps a WE or some other article on the WotC site, but it does exist. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 14:52:05
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I didn't see much in the way of any good nodes in the final product. It seems to touch on a lot of different subjects, all with them having a tie to being good.
Like I said in the other thread, awesome work, Sean! I really enjoyed reading this tome and can put it to almost immediate work.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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seankreynolds
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
91 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 15:08:23
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| I understand the confusion now. Apparently someone (I don't know who, but it wasn't me) said that there would be "good nodes" in COV. There aren't. There are "places of valor" that give benefits to good characters, but nowhere in the outline or manuscript do we use the term "node." So unless "node" has a very specific game effect that I don't know about, we're talking about the same thing. |
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ericlboyd
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
2067 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 15:39:17
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Sean,
Underdark detailed specific rules for "Earth Nodes".
Champions of Ruin detailed specific rules for "Evil Nodes" and "Shadow Nodes". (You can see an example of the latter in the Champions of Ruin web enhancement.)
Some fans had an expectation of seeing specific rules for "Good Nodes" in Champions of Valor. I think that's the source of the confusion.
--Eric |
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http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/ |
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Bocklin
Learned Scribe
Germany
151 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 16:56:56
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Dear Sean,
Thanks for your post. So there is some Helm Feat somewhere! It did not make it to the book, though. Hope it gets published some time...
Thanks for your great work on the book.
Bocklin |
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seankreynolds
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
91 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 18:54:16
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Ahhh. See, when we were working on COV, they gave us an early copy of COR but it wasn't finished yet, and I'm not sure it mentioned nodes at that point (and I don't think they gave us the outline for COR as a reference, but I lost many of my files in my September computer crash so I can't verify that). In any case, the Valor outline didn't mention nodes, just places of magical power keyed to good.
So I can see why people would expect Z after being presented X and Y, unfortunately (for those people) that's not what they told us to do (not sure why). |
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Mumadar Ibn Huzal
Master of Realmslore
1338 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 20:08:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Who are the Valorous NPCs in CoV?
Anyone we know?
It would have be cool if they'd updated some of the old NPC Heros and Villian from the old 1ed FR boxset...
I think they were all created for this book. But some of them are interesting. 
OTOH, some new blood brings better life to the Realms... just look around at the known humans that are still around, cheating with life extending magics and divine suport to stretch their lives...
IMO a good decision was made when Azoun passed away (in style). It is time we see some more retirements of 'known' folk of Faerun from way back, especially those members of the shorter lived races.
I'm looking forward to reading about these new NPCs (mental note to self: order CoV). |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 04:25:47
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| Are the Valorous Organizations in CoV written up in the longer Champions of Ruin Format or the briefer City of Splendors format? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 11:47:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Are the Valorous Organizations in CoV written up in the longer Champions of Ruin Format or the briefer City of Splendors format?
There are a handful of valorous organizations that get a lengthy amount of description (8 I believe). Following those 8 there is a section titled "Minor Valorous Organizations" where they get the brief City of Splendors type write-up.
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Antareana
Seeker
Germany
59 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 12:09:13
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*finally owns this nice tome*
I like it. The new character Backgrounnds were just what I needed for a lot of my PCs (especially when it comes to the education feat ^^)
I just wonder why there is a "Bastard of Azoun", but no "Bastard of Elminster" yet, so his children have to be "normal" chosen-born 
The Ruby Rose Knight (Substitution Levels for a Sunite Paladin) is also one of my favourites. Hope there will be more of those in future FR tomes (and luckily they don't take up the enormous space of the PrC entries)
The descriptions are also all very well done - I really enjoyed reading the first chapter since there are also a lot of hints for DMs to loose some very static rules (i.e. how to atone) of standard D&D.
The definitions of good and evil in the Realms seem to be logical, though still too easy (i.e. since "nature" should not be "better" than urban civilization just because most gods of nature are good - and since some of the example Gods (Mystra, Kelemvor...) have the alignment they have nowadays because they were mortals once and not because their concept has that specific alignment)
What I also don't like is that there are now pretty easy ways to manipulate the dead/wild magic areas of the weave and shadow weave. Myself always thought of the weaves as a kind of continuum in which real energy (permanent losses)has to be invested to change something |
It is all just a past and future secret
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Edited by - Antareana on 10 Nov 2005 14:46:50 |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 12:09:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Are the Valorous Organizations in CoV written up in the longer Champions of Ruin Format or the briefer City of Splendors format?
There are a handful of valorous organizations that get a lengthy amount of description (8 I believe). Following those 8 there is a section titled "Minor Valorous Organizations" where they get the brief City of Splendors type write-up.
Does CoV grant membership benefits automaticly or does a character have to take the Favoured of Guild feat from City of Splendors? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 14:38:49
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Sean - looks like the Ruby Rose Knight is a major success. I know a lot of people are really happy that it was included in the new book.
Like I said - this book has already seen some action in my game as one of my players has already taken a substitution level from the book!
Once again, Huzzah!
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 15:36:43
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Please, someone can tell me what the feat Defender of the Homeland do? I have a player of a cormyrean character in my campaign that starts to poke me about this, and the book will came to brazilian shores maybe in the end of this month... |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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Cam Beul
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 18:41:51
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| I asked this question on WoTC, but got no answer. I was wanting an opinion on the mechanical effectiveness(not just a neat factor) for the Broken One, Disciple of the Phoenix, and Shadow Sword substitution levels. They apply to my favorite class(monk) and favorite deity(Shaundakul) and I was afraid of them not turning out that great. I'm going off of what someone on a different board said about the Vigilant Eye's substitution of Turn Undead for Awesome Smite which apparently isn't balanced especially considering the loss of eligibility of certain divine feats, and the Shooting Star Order substitution of an extra spell slot per level for an animal companion, which I heard isn't that great either. |
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seankreynolds
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
91 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 22:27:02
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I can't really answer that until I have a final copy of the book, because what I wrote for those two issues apparently isn't what's in the final version of the book.
I _can_ tell you that a paladin's undead-turning ability is weak*, and it only becomes a strong ability when the paladin takes one of the (unfortunately too many and too strong) feats that let you swap out a turn attempt for something else, like extra damage. It's a case where Pal turn undead is a 5/10 ability, the ability I proposed is also about a 5/10, but because there's an add-on to turning that's too good (about a 9/10) the swap doesn't seem fair. The problem is the add-on feats, not the subst level swap.
* Actually, turning for clerics is weak, too, which means it's even worse for paladins. Proof?
http://seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/opinions/turningundead.html
It starts off a good ability and gets worse as the undead you face get stronger, eventually becoming almost useless because you actually can't roll high enough to turn them at all. As the paladin's turning is even weaker than the cleric's, he's even worse off. The only reason turning is still really useful in the game is that there are a ton of feats that let you swap out your many many turning attempts for other special abilities, turning something you don't or can't use on most days into something you can use all the time. It's like the Thousand Faces ability of the druid ... pretty boring and weak, but if there was a feat that was easy to get and let you shoot death rays out of your eyes with that ability, suddenly people would be all over TF and would think it was powerful.
I can also tell you that the ranger animal companion is also a weak ability. As it functions as a druid of 1/2 the ranger's level, a Rgr10 is the equivalent of a Drd5, and a Drd5 is only good for a base animal with +2 HD or a slightly better animal like an ape (4 HD), cheetah (3 HD), or wolverine (3 HD); they don't yet qualify for brown bears (6 HD), dire apes (5 HD), Huge vipers (6 HD), etc. By comparison, a typical Rgr10 with the Leadership feat qualifies automatically for a 7th-level cohort (or even just a 5th-level if he's unfairly punished with the book's -2 penalty for having a (weak) animal companion instead of the full druid's animal companion). OR he could have a blink dog, pegasus, satyr, or hell hound instead of a 7th-level cohort.
So if given the choice of keeping their class-based animal companion or getting a free Leadership feat, the Leadership feat is almost always a better option (especially if the Rgr has a high Cha and can qualify for an even better creature). And as Leadership is a feat, that means it's a fair swap for any feat with similar prereqs (it's only prereq is "must be 6th+ level", so any no-prereq feat is fair game), and the Extra Spell feat from Tome & Blood gets you a bonus spell (albeit at a lower level than your max spell level), so you still come out ahead compared to having your animal companion because this swapped Rgr ability gets you a spell of your highest spell level.
Of course, that's only the argument for what I wrote, not for what appears in the book. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 22:28:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Cam Beul
I asked this question on WoTC, but got no answer. I was wanting an opinion on the mechanical effectiveness(not just a neat factor) for the Broken One, Disciple of the Phoenix, and Shadow Sword substitution levels. They apply to my favorite class(monk) and favorite deity(Shaundakul) and I was afraid of them not turning out that great. I'm going off of what someone on a different board said about the Vigilant Eye's substitution of Turn Undead for Awesome Smite which apparently isn't balanced especially considering the loss of eligibility of certain divine feats, and the Shooting Star Order substitution of an extra spell slot per level for an animal companion, which I heard isn't that great either.
I myself would rather have the extra spell than the animal companion. Because in the games that my group tends to play, unless the DM allows the more powerful animal companions without taking the level reduction in abilities, they end up only in the "scout and watchdog" roles.
<We play hard and fun, when I DM, and group likes it, since I do try to ensure that no one dies, unless they are being stupid or valorous> |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 23:41:34
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I take it theres something about good Duegar in CoV?
2 Feats from CoV
Duerran Metaform Training CV 29 Your studies have shown you the way to link your psionics and your enlarge person spell-like ability.
Duerran Stealth Training CV 29 Your studies have shown you the way to link your psionics and your invisibility spell-like ability
Whats the story? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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seankreynolds
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
91 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2005 : 23:48:02
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| They wanted us to include a couple of psionic feats, and as the only "psionic" PC race in the FRCS is the duergar, I centered the psi feats around them. Duegar can be valorous, too -- in fact, anyone can be valorous, even if they're evil. |
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Cam Beul
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 05:20:33
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Thanks for that explanation above Sean, I fell alot better now.
I think part of the argument that the animal companion for spells trade was unfair was due to the weakness and the slow attainability for spells that the ranger has. A wizard or sorceror would undboutedly gain the most from the feat from Tome and Blood. |
Edited by - Cam Beul on 11 Nov 2005 05:48:10 |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 14:14:31
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Just found an Error in CoV that I figured would have been stamped out by now.
One of the new regions, Secret Moondancer, has Daylight Adapation listed as a Regional feat, but Daylight Adapation was corrected as a General feat in Errata for the PGtF.
Not sure if that was an error. When a newer book is published it tends to update the rules. Someone decided to turn it back to a regional feat.
If all else fails, blame the proofer. |
I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 14:44:15
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Well, it could also be a regional and general feat. I mean for someone who starts in the UD, the could get it when they are like, 6th or 9th level. However, if you were born on the surface to a worshipper of Eilistraeee, you may get it from your region.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 14:50:02
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Ok, I have a question about the Fangshields -
How exactly do Blink Dogs come up with 100gp? That is crazy. I just don't know if I see BDs being able to cough up 100gp a year, that's a lot of money! I suppose the Giant Eagles can just swoop down and eat an Orc Caravan or something, but Blink Dogs don't even have thumbs to pick pocket! What's going on here?
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 14:52:35
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Ok, I have a question about the Fangshields -
How exactly do Blink Dogs come up with 100gp? That is crazy. I just don't know if I see BDs being able to cough up 100gp a year, that's a lot of money! I suppose the Giant Eagles can just swoop down and eat an Orc Caravan or something, but Blink Dogs don't even have thumbs to pick pocket! What's going on here?
C-Fb
They do indeed lack the opposable thumb. That's it, I quit this Realms stuff... |
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seankreynolds
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
91 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 16:28:20
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The Daylight Adaptation things is my fault; I was going off the text version of the book, not the errata'd version, and didn't know they turned into a regular feat (which is a good thing, there's no reason it should be limited to 1st-level characters ... then again, most feats shouldn't be limited to 1st-level characters).
As for the blink dog question, if you're asking how the blink dogs could _acquire_ 100gp, they just need to attack bandits and orcs and such. If you're asking how they could carry it, you've obviously never had a smart dog. :) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 17:24:58
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Sean,
Can I cut and paste your replies and add it my Candlekeep files? I didn't want to do it until I got your go ahead and I've asked most of the other game designers and authors and they agreed but it's only proper to ask first. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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seankreynolds
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
91 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 17:30:05
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| Go for it, thanks for asking. :) |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 18:19:30
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Whoa, Sean, I've had smart dogs, but carrying 100gp by themselves is kind of crazy.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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seankreynolds
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
91 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2005 : 18:26:00
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1) Blink dogs are as intelligent as your average human, so we're talking miles ahead of the typical dog.
2) I hear they have these things called "bags" or even "belt pouches" that humanoids use to carry their wealth.
1 + 2 = 3) Thus, a blink dog would know that it could pick up another creature's bag of loot in its mouth and take it wherever it needed to.
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Champions of Valor
