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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 04:55:22
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That is correct. It's OR. You don't even have to take them all. But let me tell you, Corpsestrike is the most ridiculous ability I've seen in a while. Remember, it lasts one MINUTE PER LEVEL. You can fight undead ALL DAY. And it ignores the DR no matter what it is.
So is it worth sacking smite evil for? You bet it is. |
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Cam Beul
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 05:27:23
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| That's the ability of the Eternal Order that replaces Smite Evil? Wow, I had no idea it was that good. I had assumed it was just Smite Undead. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 08:06:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Cam Beul
That's the ability of the Eternal Order that replaces Smite Evil? Wow, I had no idea it was that good. I had assumed it was just Smite Undead.
Also remember, these Subsitution Levels are for Knightly Orders, not for the Paladins of the god in general.
Corpse Strike is as often as Smite Evil, and lasts for Mins/Level and Ignores ANY DR for Undeade except for x/Epic.
Then instead of Divine Health, they get to ignore negative levels from undead.
Then isstead of Remove Disease, they get Greater Turning. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
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Bocklin
Learned Scribe
Germany
151 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 08:34:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Some of them are nice... I'm now wanting to create a wemic Lion Legionnaire! 
Ditto! Actually, if you plan on playing "The Red Hand of Doom" in the Channath Vale (as suggested by Rich Baker), you might well be able to play just that type of character! Just have your Wemic be from the Shar.
(but you might want to scale down this LA+3 thing to a +2, does not make much sense; especially if you compare the Wemic - who never got a proper 3.5 write up - to the 3.5 centaur).
Bocklin |
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Bocklin
Learned Scribe
Germany
151 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 08:38:50
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Sorry for quoting myself, but even if I really like CoV, I felt a bit let down on Helm. I just posted this on WotC's Board and wanted to share my thoughts here as well:
quote:
(...)
Don't get me wrong, I love the book and it is full of nice fluffy and crunchy stuff, the substitution levels for all classes are great, as are the write up of the organisations presented. Congratulations to the designers!
But I was really hoping that Thomas and Sean would show Helm some love... He is a key god of the Realms and, until now, he did not get any proper coverage anywhere... I know he is LN, but still, CoV was really a good place to deal with his faith and his followers.
Tyr has not far from 10 specific Feats, two or three types of substitution levels for paladins, at least a PrC (not counting the Triadic Knight) and a couple of organisations being fully fleshed out (CoV and W:CoS). Please stop the overkill on Tyr.
On the other hand you have Helm.... Well... He is misunderstood and lost many followers. I am not speaking of the Realms, I am speaking IRL. :(
Is there a FR designer out there who would live up to the task and design some proper 3.5 Helmite material (be it fluff or crunch)?
It would be nice, because otherwise the next gamer generation will wonder why he even features in "Faiths and Pantheons".
(...)
Like I said.
Bocklin
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 11:23:06
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| I dunno... Helm is the god of guardians. This book is about being valorous. There's not a lot of valor in being a guard. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 11:46:44
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| Read through Champions of Valor again.... There is some stuff on Helm. Granted not as much as the ultimate Paladin Gods but there is some stuff in there (both fluff and crunch)....eh..I hate those terms. |
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Bocklin
Learned Scribe
Germany
151 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 12:43:51
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Hi Wooly, Hi Chosen of Bane,
Thanks for your replies.
Yes there is a bit of stuff on Helm, but what is there is minimal (yes, I did go through all the book). You have a "substitutions level" class for Paladins and some text here and there referring to Helm.
Also, my post was not only on CoV, but on the whole quantity of 3rd Edition Material. Compared to the importance of the god, there is nearly nothing on him and his church.
And, yes he is the god of guardians, but he has Paladins working for him, and not just the Vigilant Eyes. Helm's text in F&P cries "there are many valorous people in his church".
So even if he is the god of guardians and is LN, many of his servants are totally of the valorous type (following this books definition). Hence my initial expectations and position: "Helm's church has been poorly covered in 3rd Ed material until now, CoV is the book to correct that mistake".
I posted this both here and at WotC many months ago, when the designers were still working on the book, and they both indicated that I should not worry, that things like that would be aplenty in the book. But in the end, no, there was close to nothing on Helm in the book.
In the end, even Nobanion gets more coverage and material than Helm!
And what is it with this Nimbral PrC??? Sorry, but even if it is good to provide some coverage on the forgotten parts of Faerűn it should not be at the expense of covering ground that is relevant for all of the continent. How many people are going to use a Nimbral Skyguardian in comparison to those who are going to use a Helmite PrC??
Helm is stapple FR. He should have received more attention, both in terms of lore, but also in terms of game mechanisms. Not only in this book, but throughout all of the 3rd Edition Material.
Bocklin, who loves everybody ( ) but feels really strongly about this ( ). |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 14:33:06
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Well - IMHO, I think the developers of WotC probably saw more potential to cover some of the other deities because most people are very familiar with Helm, and to be honest, his Paladins are probably just straight up.
I can understand where you are coming from concerning the fluff of the book. There should have been more mention of knightly orders and structure perhaps involved with Helm.
I just have to trust WotC's decision - because seriously, there might be someone out there that just said, "YES! Finally some coverage on Nobanion.."
Just a thought - though I do understand your being upset.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Dhomal
Senior Scribe
USA
565 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 17:07:36
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Hello-
I am SO looking forward to getting this! But alas - it is not at my store yet. :( However - it SI listed In TRansit - so hopefully - very soon....
And from the looks of it - some info on a couple of my favorite deities too!
And I am sorry for the lack of love for Helm. Perhaps there is a third Champions book in the works that might give hime some airtime....
Dhomal |
I am collecting the D&D Minis. I would be more than willing to trade with people. You can send me a PM here with your email listed - and I can send you my minis list. Thanks!
Successfully traded with Xysma! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 17:34:57
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I just have to trust WotC's decision - because seriously, there might be someone out there that just said, "YES! Finally some coverage on Nobanion.."
To be quite honest, I'd far rather see info on Nobanion (who has had little air time) than on Helm...
I think it's all about the popularity of the deity. Helm has gotten a bad rap since he killed Mystra 2.0. And even without that, to some of us, Helm is a boring, rather cut-and-dry deity. There's just nothing there about him to spark interest.
And no offense, Bocklin, but a single line saying he has valorous servants doesn't mean there's anything special enough about them to rate a mention in a sourcebook on valor. Just about every good deity has valorous servants, as do many neutral ones.
I'd also disagree with the statement that he's a staple in FR. I've never seen Helm as much more than just... there. He's around, but he doesn't do anything to stand out or draw attention to himself -- not like many of the other deities.
I understand that it may be frustrating to not see a favorite deity showcased (I'm still waiting for Lurue and Finder to get some serious love from the designers), but it's an unfortunate truth that they can't please everyone. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 18:23:44
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I understand your frustration about not having your favorite deity fucosed on too much. My favorite deity is Bane and there was nothing in Champions of Valor on him  .
However, there are a few things to consider...
1) Helm is an Intermediate Deity, he's not one of the "staple" movers and shakers in the realms. The deities that usually get the most attention are greater deities, think about it...Bane, Cyric, Tyr, Shar, Lathander, Mystra etc...
The only non-greater deities that were heavily focused on were Ilmater and Torm... Both are members of the Triad, the most valorous group of deities out there. Nobanion was not exactly the point of focus in this tome, he may have had more than Helm but he is the god of Nobility and Royalty, those areas tend to have valorous heros (think King Arthur or the Azouns).
2) As far as game mechanics are concerned...Helm has a variant Paladin in this tome, the Vigilant Eyes (p. 51) (substitution levels).
Two of the "Regional Backgrounds" have Helm listed as a favored deity... the Knight Squire (24) and Holy Realm (p. 23)
3) As far as Lore are concerned...there are 2 Organizations described that are associated with Helm. The "Vigilant Eyes of teh God" and the "Watchers over the Fallen" (both on p. 105).
Sure that's not as much as Tyr, the greater god of Justice and Torm, the God of Paladins but there is some stuff speciic to Helm.
4) Lots, if not MOST, of the stuff in this tome can be applied to characters of various deities...which would include Helm. For example, the Knights of the North Prestige Class is perfectly acceptable for a Helmite and can give people who play Helmite characters plenty of tips/guidelines for roleplay.
Many of the feats also don't have a specific deity involved, and one actually screams Helm, the Defender of the Homeland. Initiate of the Holy Realms actually lists Helm as one of the 6 acceptable deities.
5) I think 3rd Edition hasn't displayed any more or less information on Helm than most deities. He has the same size write-up in Faiths and Pantheons as everyone else. Other than Faiths and Pantheons deities really take a back seat unless they're one of the few currently involved in something big (Mystra vs. Shar for Shadowweave for example). Seriously, Bane came back from the dead and that is basically only as a small blurb in the FRCS.
Like I said, I understand your frustration but I think Helm got enough screen time for his status (intermediate deity). I happen to like Helm (I am currently running a Zhent campaign in which a Paladin of Helm is the main villain) but I know most of the people I play with think Helm is...boring. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 18:34:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
Nobanion was not exactly the point of focus in this tome, he may have had more than Helm but he is the god of Nobility and Royalty, those areas tend to have valorous heros (think King Arthur or the Azouns).
Isn't that Siamorphe's portfolio? |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 18:59:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
Isn't that Siamorphe's portfolio?
Well, Royalty is Nobanions portfolio. I guess I just assumed nobility went along with that before double checking in my books. However, Nobility is one of his domains and "leaders" are listed under his typical worshipers.
Nobility is listed as one Siamorphe's portfolios and her typical worshipers also include "leaders". Siamorphe also has the Nobility Domain available to her followers.
Sorry for the misunderstanding, I guess I was half-right. |
Edited by - Chosen of Bane on 08 Nov 2005 19:00:31 |
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Bocklin
Learned Scribe
Germany
151 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 19:10:42
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Thanks for your comments. I guess I will get over it, but right now I am still mourning.
Will go back to reading the excellent CoV and will try to forget about what's not in it...
Bocklin |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 19:13:30
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Well, it's not like they don't have deities with overlapping portfolios. Just look at the deities of magic.
I think it's nice that they give some of the other deities love in this tome. I think Mystra gets too much love, but that's personal opinion and I don't think everyone will agree. Anyway, I liked seeing the Ruby Rose Knights detailed, as I love Sune and think she doesn't get enough love from the developers either.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 19:18:20
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Well, it's not like they don't have deities with overlapping portfolios. Just look at the deities of magic.
I think it's nice that they give some of the other deities love in this tome. I think Mystra gets too much love, but that's personal opinion and I don't think everyone will agree. Anyway, I liked seeing the Ruby Rose Knights detailed, as I love Sune and think she doesn't get enough love from the developers either.
C-Fb
I agree on all points. I think there is a bit too much of the Mystra stuff and I also was also VERY excited to see Ruby Rose Knights detailed in this tome.
To allow Paladin's of a chaotic deity and not provide guidelines or hints towards playing them was something that bothered me. I'm glad it was addressed. |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 19:54:49
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There was a great Dragon article that discussed Paladins of other alignments. If I was home, I would post which one - however, I am sure that one of the other great sages will be able to immediately point you to the right direction. If not, when I get home, I will post the reference point.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 00:05:52
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
There was a great Dragon article that discussed Paladins of other alignments. If I was home, I would post which one - however, I am sure that one of the other great sages will be able to immediately point you to the right direction. If not, when I get home, I will post the reference point.
C-Fb
Unearthed Arcana contains the LE, CE, and CG ones, too. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 01:18:10
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Who are the Valorous NPCs in CoV?
Anyone we know?
It would have be cool if they'd updated some of the old NPC Heros and Villian from the old 1ed FR boxset... |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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BobROE
Learned Scribe
Canada
106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 01:23:05
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| No one I'd ever heard of. They're all members of the groups detailed in the book, most of which I think are no. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 02:20:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Who are the Valorous NPCs in CoV?
Anyone we know?
It would have be cool if they'd updated some of the old NPC Heros and Villian from the old 1ed FR boxset...
I think they were all created for this book. But some of them are interesting. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 02:29:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Who are the Valorous NPCs in CoV?
Anyone we know?
It would have be cool if they'd updated some of the old NPC Heros and Villian from the old 1ed FR boxset...
Bakra Hispul
Brenvol Whitebrow
Breyarg Stonebreaker
Dalthyria
Dorgafal Shiverock
Kerri Talindras
Ramas-Teth Ankh
Rindon Wasatho
Sarade Gedreghost
Stormwing
All new as far as I know. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 04:31:11
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Back when CoV was announced Sean said that Helm got a fair bit of coverage in CoV (this was around 6 months ago) however a couple of people over at the WOTC are now saying theres not alot of love for Helm in CoV... I wonder if something got cut from CoV? Web Enhancement?
Dargoth who doesnt have CoV yet |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 05:11:08
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Thanks to WOTC Online Feat index I managed to pull the following feat from CoV
Broken One's Sacrifice CV 28 Your dedication to Ilmater's philosophy has given you the power to take attacks directed at others.
Carmendine Monk CV 28 You have learned that study is just as important as insight to finding enlightenment.
Defender of the Homeland CV 28 You have sworn a sacred oath to protect your country from evil.
Detect Shadow Weave User CV 28 You can determine if a magic item or spellcaster is using the Weave or the Shadow Weave.
Druuth Slayer CV 29 You have studied the lore of the druuth (a cabal of doppelgangers led by a mind flayer) and know how to recognize and resist their powers.
Duerran Metaform Training CV 29 Your studies have shown you the way to link your psionics and your enlarge person spell-like ability.
Duerran Stealth Training CV 29 Your studies have shown you the way to link your psionics and your invisibility spell-like ability.
From Smite to Song CV 29 You can channel your destructive holy energy into powerful song magic for the glory of Milil.
Initiate of Anhur CV 30 You have been initiated into the greatest secrets of Anhur's church.
Initiate of Arvoreen CV 30 You have been initiated into the greatest secrets of Arvoreen's church.
Initiate of Baravar Cloakshadow CV 30 You have been initiated into the greatest secrets of Baravar Cloakshadow's church.
Initiate of Eilistraee CV 30 You have been initiated into the greatest secrets of Eilistraee's church.
Initiate of the Holy Realm CV 30 You have been initiated into the greatest secrets of one of the faiths of the Holy Realm (Chauntea, Helm, Lathander, Selune, or Sune).
Initiate of Horus-Re CV 30 You have been initiated into the greatest secrets of Horus-Re's church.
Initiate of Milil CV 31 You have been initiated into the greatest secrets of Milil's church.
Initiate of Nobanion CV 31 You have been initiated into the greatest secrets of Nobanion's church.
Initiate of Torm CV 31 You have been initiated into the greatest secrets of Torm's church.
Initiate of Tymora CV 32 You have been initiated into the greatest secrets of Tymora's church.
Knight of the Red Falcon CV 32 Your military order has a legendary ability to survive against overwhelming odds.
Knight of the Risen Scepter CV 32 Your military order is dedicated to fighting Set and his minions, and even death cannot stop you from this task.
Knight of Tyr's Holy Judgment CV 32 You can draw upon the power of Tyr to sense and understand the law and to locate devils.
Knight ot Tyr's Merciful Sword CV 33 You can draw upon the power of Tyr to sense where you are needed.
Mark of the Triad CV 33 You have been initiated into the greatest secrets of the Triad, the godly triumvirate of Tyr, Torm, and Ilmater.
Overcome Shadow Weave CV 33 You understand the strengths and weaknesses of the Shadow Weave and are more resistant to its tricks.
Paladin of the Noble Heart CV 33 You are tasked by Ilmater to eliminate cruelty from the world, particularly that of Loviatar.
Silver Blood CV 33 You have magically or alchemically imbued your flesh and blood with silver, making you resistant to lycanthrope attacks.
Silver Fang CV 33 By following a ritual taught by the Fangshields, your natural attacks are suffused with the power of silver and are fully effective against lycanthropes.
Smiting Power CV 33 You use your smite ability to augment other combat maneuvers.
Sword of the Arcane Order CV 34 Members of your military order have a special connection with arcane magic.
Sun Soul Monk CV 34 Your training with this monk order gives you special powers depending on which sect you follow.
CV: Champions of Valor and the number after it is the page number in the book
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“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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seankreynolds
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
91 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 05:14:16
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First, let me apologize for not being around for months. My life has been hellish since I moved to the east coast and I've been behind on everything ... including email and message boards. I've subscribed to this topic and a few other ones about COV/MOTM so I'll be sure to keep up.
Now I know some of you guys have the book in your hands -- I don't yet, I just have the text that Thomas and I turned over, and based on some discussion on my boards it looks like some of the rulesy stuff was changed in development. So keep that in mind before you attack T or I on something you don't like. :)
{A question for those who worked on this tome... Is it going to have good shrines and good nodes, the same way that Champions of Ruin has evil shrines and evil nodes?}
Yep.
{I was wondering if there would be a Helmite PrC (or other crunchy Helmite goodies)in CoV?}
Substitution levels and feats, yes, prestige classes, no.
{So we really ARE getting Paladin Deity Substitutions for Paladins? }
I'm not sure what you mean by this. If you mean paladin substitution levels for some of the paladin orders, yes.
{Now these Character Options are nifty... It's got this Regional Backgrounds section. Each one has a title, a brief blurb about the background, and then the appropriate Region, Automatic Languages, Bonus Languages, Favored Deities, Regional Feats, and Bonus Equipment.}
Yeah, they're basically new regions (like how Cormyr is a region or the Moonsea is a region), but more thematic, like "raised by good druids" or "bastard child of Azoun." It lets you customize your regional bonuses within your greater region.
{I stopped to read about a couple of the "Agents of Good". These are ready-made NPCs with full write-ups. There's several of them, and it's diverse.}
BTW the characters in that section are all new characters and are intended to be contacts, cohorts, special paladin mounts or animal companions, etc. ... they're not the movers & shakers, they're there to be helpers and buddies to your valorous PCs. The focus is on the PCs and what valorous stuff they are doing, not how valorous Elminster & co are this week.
{I still don't know how I feel about the inclusion of Illumians and similar *new* ilk into Realms Resources, but I'm always challenging people here to be open to new rules, so I'll reserve judgment until later.}
Fortunately, that part of the book doesn't officially place those races in FR, it just says "IF you use those races, they're probably around here." That way there's no canon reference, so a later designer doesn't have to include them in a future book on that area, and the fans don't need to scream if that designer fails to mention them.
{But Kelemvor isn't concerned with evil... One of his primary goals is sending undead to their final rest. So it makes sense for a Kelemvorite paladin to swap his anti-evil abilities for anti-undead ones. If you want to be a paladin to fight evil, you pick a member of the Triad. If you want to be a paladin to smite undead, you pick a deity that wants to off all undead: Kelemvor.}
Exactly, WoolyRupert. :)
{And you're right Wooly, but I was comparing the two in assumption that they would fill a role in a campaign where anything can happen. In a particularly undead heavy campaign, the Kelemvorite variant would likely be the more effective. The unfortunate thing is that players will not always have the luxury of an insightful plot synopsis before character creation, so they might not consider a variant that would be much more suitable for that campaign than the original class that tends to be decent in a greater variaty of situations.}
True, but if you're the player and you choose to be a paladin of Kelemvor and choose to take the subst levels for Kelemvor's paladins and your DM fails to throw at least a somewhat higher proportion of undead encounters your way, the DM is failing at his or her job -- in the same way they'd be failing if they didn't provide appopriate favored enemies for ranger characters, put a huge number of fire-immune monsters against the fire-mage PC, never provided any trap obstacles or locked doors for the rogue with maxed-out DD and OL, and so on.
{But let me tell you, Corpsestrike is the most ridiculous ability I've seen in a while. Remember, it lasts one MINUTE PER LEVEL. You can fight undead ALL DAY. And it ignores the DR no matter what it is.}
One minute per level does not equal all day. In fact, given the typical adventure, one minute per level may mean one or two encounters at most.
{But I was really hoping that Thomas and Sean would show Helm some love... He is a key god of the Realms and, until now, he did not get any proper coverage anywhere... I know he is LN, but still, CoV was really a good place to deal with his faith and his followers.}
Except that COV goes out of its way in the beginning to point out that the book is about _valorous_ characters and explains what it means when it uses that term. You're going to have more info in such a book on the LG Tyr than the LN Helm, and also note (IIRC) that there are more paladin orders of Tyr in FR canon than Helmite orders (especially if you discount the Helmite order that's responsible for killing thousands of innocent Mazticans).
{I dunno... Helm is the god of guardians. This book is about being valorous. There's not a lot of valor in being a guard.}
Two for two, WR.
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msatran
Learned Scribe
USA
210 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 08:45:45
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Sean, my players are not typical. Not by any stretch of the imagination. They are all geniuses, with maybe one or two exceptions. :)
No plan survives contact with these guys. Really. I mean it. :)
When everyone sitting at your table is brilliant, or almost everyone, you're going to hit a lot of walls in that regard. :) |
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Cam Beul
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2005 : 11:57:57
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Glad to see you back, Sean. Can't wait to check out CoV when it hits shelves in my area.
But I read from the WotC forums that good nodes ended up not being included in CoV. Do you think that I read wrong, or that it was some of the stuff changed(removed) during development that you weren't aware of? |
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Champions of Valor
