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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Nov 2005 : 23:07:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, and there's a notable artistic mistake. The write-up for Dornavver clearly states, more than once, that it's a sword. But the associated pic is a nifty-looking warhammer.
 Yay, Dornavver survived the cut. And yes indeedy, it's a sword. In fact, its more common name is ... Demonbane for all you FR scholars. Go Impiltur!
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 00:07:53
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, and there's a notable artistic mistake. The write-up for Dornavver clearly states, more than once, that it's a sword. But the associated pic is a nifty-looking warhammer.
Yay, Dornavver survived the cut. And yes indeedy, it's a sword. In fact, its more common name is ... Demonbane for all you FR scholars. Go Impiltur!
-- George Krashos
The weapon shown and being called Dornavver is actually Oath-Hammer. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 00:36:17
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I love this tome! It is definitely on par with Champions of Ruin. I think these are great guidebooks to the diametrically opposed factions in the lands of Faerun. Kudos to the developers once again!
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 03:27:31
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I agree with Crennen. This book is pretty good.
I still don't know how I feel about the inclusion of Illumians and similar *new* ilk into Realms Resources, but I'm always challenging people here to be open to new rules, so I'll reserve judgment until later.
I think my favorite part of the book so far are the Places of Valor. I'm really pleased with both the artwork and especially the Dungeon Magazine-style format WotC used to portray these locations. The maps for Mholor Drinhal and Teumyshaaril in particular are just awesome.
And speaking of artwork: Damn! it's like WotC put the cream of their artist pool together for this book. Not one art piece left me feeling less than thrilled. Solid all around.
It's just too bad WotC couldn't devote just one half-page section to an Equine Comparison piece, so that we could see the differences between the various equine breeds in the Realms.
Time to go back to reading....
J. Grenemyer
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09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Cam Beul
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 03:42:41
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I love this tome! It is definitely on par with Champions of Ruin. I think these are great guidebooks to the diametrically opposed factions in the lands of Faerun. Kudos to the developers once again!
C-Fb
Hmmm...that worries me. See, I didn't think CoR was all that great, at least not nearly what it could have been. I'd like to collect opinions on comparisons between the two books. But I'll probably check it out anyway, the substitution levels sound really good. |
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BobROE
Learned Scribe
Canada
106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 04:19:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Cam Beul
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I love this tome! It is definitely on par with Champions of Ruin. I think these are great guidebooks to the diametrically opposed factions in the lands of Faerun. Kudos to the developers once again!
C-Fb
Hmmm...that worries me. See, I didn't think CoR was all that great, at least not nearly what it could have been. I'd like to collect opinions on comparisons between the two books. But I'll probably check it out anyway, the substitution levels sound really good.
I think it's alot better than CoR, which I thought was rather weak. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 07:11:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
I agree with Crennen. This book is pretty good.
I still don't know how I feel about the inclusion of Illumians and similar *new* ilk into Realms Resources, but I'm always challenging people here to be open to new rules, so I'll reserve judgment until later.
What have they tried to Shoehorn in and how have they done it? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 07:47:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
I agree with Crennen. This book is pretty good.
I still don't know how I feel about the inclusion of Illumians and similar *new* ilk into Realms Resources, but I'm always challenging people here to be open to new rules, so I'll reserve judgment until later.
What have they tried to Shoehorn in and how have they done it?
They just offered ways to explain Goliaths, Illumians, and Raptorians to exist in the realms. They offered up several ways for each of those races. |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 07:48:53
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| The ideas for including Illumians, Goliaths and Raptorans are optional. It suggests several interesting alternate possible origins and homelands for them. About a paragraph for each race. It is included for DM's or players who want to use them in a campaign, but it is not presented as canonical. And it is interesting without taking up too much space. I thought it was nicely done and a nice touch. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 07:55:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
The ideas for including Illumians, Goliaths and Raptorans are optional. It suggests several interesting alternate possible origins and homelands for them. About a paragraph for each race. It is included for DM's or players who want to use them in a campaign, but it is not presented as canonical. And it is interesting without taking up too much space. I thought it was nicely done and a nice touch.
So basicly there written up the same way as it was for the 2 Book Vile Darkness races in the PGTF? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 07:59:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
The ideas for including Illumians, Goliaths and Raptorans are optional. It suggests several interesting alternate possible origins and homelands for them. About a paragraph for each race. It is included for DM's or players who want to use them in a campaign, but it is not presented as canonical. And it is interesting without taking up too much space. I thought it was nicely done and a nice touch.
Yeah it was quite nice, especially the suggestions for the Raptorians. |
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D20 System Reference Document
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Antareana
Seeker
Germany
59 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 16:36:30
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So an intiate Feat for Milil AND Subtitution levels (wich are a great Option IMO) for a Paladin of Sune...
I'm happy ^^
*desperately wants to get hand on this book* |
It is all just a past and future secret
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Cam Beul
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 21:00:55
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| To anyone who has purchased the book, are the substitution levels really that great? The reason I ask is it seems to me that those who are really happy with CoV are thrilled not with the substitution levels themselves, but with the fact that they are there. I read the substitution levels for a paladin of Mystra on WotC, and it seemed like a fair trade, but the Kelemvorite paladin substitution levels, according to a poster on wizards, basically replace anti-evil abilities with anti-undead abilities. That doesn't seem like an even trade, because most undead are evil anyay, and most of the ones that are not evil are mindless undead which tend to be rather weak. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 21:08:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
The ideas for including Illumians, Goliaths and Raptorans are optional.
Thank God--I was worried there! |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 21:14:10
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Hey, you can't hate on those new races. 
Ok, well, they are a bit goofy.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 22:12:08
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| If one of you guys who has CoV has access to a scanner can you email me the contents pages, Ill see if I can convert it to a text document |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 22:51:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Cam Beul
To anyone who has purchased the book, are the substitution levels really that great? The reason I ask is it seems to me that those who are really happy with CoV are thrilled not with the substitution levels themselves, but with the fact that they are there. I read the substitution levels for a paladin of Mystra on WotC, and it seemed like a fair trade, but the Kelemvorite paladin substitution levels, according to a poster on wizards, basically replace anti-evil abilities with anti-undead abilities. That doesn't seem like an even trade, because most undead are evil anyay, and most of the ones that are not evil are mindless undead which tend to be rather weak.
Some of them are quit nice, and others are  .
And alot of the substitution levels are for knightly orders, especially the paladin ones. |
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D20 System Reference Document
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 22:52:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Cam Beul
To anyone who has purchased the book, are the substitution levels really that great? The reason I ask is it seems to me that those who are really happy with CoV are thrilled not with the substitution levels themselves, but with the fact that they are there. I read the substitution levels for a paladin of Mystra on WotC, and it seemed like a fair trade, but the Kelemvorite paladin substitution levels, according to a poster on wizards, basically replace anti-evil abilities with anti-undead abilities. That doesn't seem like an even trade, because most undead are evil anyay, and most of the ones that are not evil are mindless undead which tend to be rather weak.
But Kelemvor isn't concerned with evil... One of his primary goals is sending undead to their final rest. So it makes sense for a Kelemvorite paladin to swap his anti-evil abilities for anti-undead ones. If you want to be a paladin to fight evil, you pick a member of the Triad. If you want to be a paladin to smite undead, you pick a deity that wants to off all undead: Kelemvor. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 23:03:53
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| So how well do the Paladin of Kelemvor substiute levels blend with the Hunter of the Dead PrC? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 07 Nov 2005 23:04:39 |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 23:16:09
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I really like some of the substitution levels - but the majority are for Paladins, as you would figure. There are a good many for clerics as well, but all other classes are few and far inbetween. I think that they add a certain flare to the character and helps to more easily identify a paladin to the deity they worship. If there are any specifics you are asking about, feel free to ask.
C-Fb |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 00:07:33
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I really like some of the substitution levels - but the majority are for Paladins, as you would figure. There are a good many for clerics as well, but all other classes are few and far inbetween. I think that they add a certain flare to the character and helps to more easily identify a paladin to the deity they worship. If there are any specifics you are asking about, feel free to ask.
C-Fb
Can you list those that have substitution level write ups? |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 00:12:43
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
I really like some of the substitution levels - but the majority are for Paladins, as you would figure. There are a good many for clerics as well, but all other classes are few and far inbetween. I think that they add a certain flare to the character and helps to more easily identify a paladin to the deity they worship. If there are any specifics you are asking about, feel free to ask.
C-Fb
Some of them are nice... I'm now wanting to create a wemic Lion Legionnaire! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 00:15:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Can you list those that have substitution level write ups?
See warlockco's post from 06 Nov, at 20:07:52. (Back a page)
As for your other question, I'd have to look up the Hunter of the Dead PrC. Which tome was that in?
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 00:46:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
The Hunter of the Dead PrC was first included in DRAGON # 276. It was then revised for it's inclusion in the Complete Warrior tome.
What he said |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Cam Beul
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 02:50:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Cam Beul
To anyone who has purchased the book, are the substitution levels really that great? The reason I ask is it seems to me that those who are really happy with CoV are thrilled not with the substitution levels themselves, but with the fact that they are there. I read the substitution levels for a paladin of Mystra on WotC, and it seemed like a fair trade, but the Kelemvorite paladin substitution levels, according to a poster on wizards, basically replace anti-evil abilities with anti-undead abilities. That doesn't seem like an even trade, because most undead are evil anyay, and most of the ones that are not evil are mindless undead which tend to be rather weak.
But Kelemvor isn't concerned with evil... One of his primary goals is sending undead to their final rest. So it makes sense for a Kelemvorite paladin to swap his anti-evil abilities for anti-undead ones. If you want to be a paladin to fight evil, you pick a member of the Triad. If you want to be a paladin to smite undead, you pick a deity that wants to off all undead: Kelemvor.
Right, but I wasn't disputing that it made sense, I was using it as an example of a substitution level that wasn't really a fair trade mechanically. |
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warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 03:28:26
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quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Cam Beul
Right, but I wasn't disputing that it made sense, I was using it as an example of a substitution level that wasn't really a fair trade mechanically.
No one ever said trade-offs for flavor had to be fair though.
I'm not so sure about that... Using the substitution levels in essence makes for a variant class. This variant class is similar to the original, but has some different abilities that better suit its role. So it's almost an apples and oranges comparison. You're not comparing two regular paladins, you're comparing a regular one and one specialized to fight undead. |
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Cam Beul
Acolyte
USA
27 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 04:02:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Cam Beul
Right, but I wasn't disputing that it made sense, I was using it as an example of a substitution level that wasn't really a fair trade mechanically.
No one ever said trade-offs for flavor had to be fair though.
I'm not so sure about that... Using the substitution levels in essence makes for a variant class. This variant class is similar to the original, but has some different abilities that better suit its role. So it's almost an apples and oranges comparison. You're not comparing two regular paladins, you're comparing a regular one and one specialized to fight undead.
I wasn't saying that it should be fair though. I wasn't complaining about anything. I was using it as an example to make a point in hopes that someone could verify that others were like that, or that they were not like that so I could know what to expect. And you're right Wooly, but I was comparing the two in assumption that they would fill a role in a campaign where anything can happen. In a particularly undead heavy campaign, the Kelemvorite variant would likely be the more effective. The unfortunate thing is that players will not always have the luxury of an insightful plot synopsis before character creation, so they might not consider a variant that would be much more suitable for that campaign than the original class that tends to be decent in a greater variaty of situations. |
Edited by - Cam Beul on 08 Nov 2005 04:07:46 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 04:23:33
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| Forgive me if I'm wrong, but a paladin of Kelemvor, or any other paladin for that matter, would not HAVE to take substitution levels, correct? In other words, Kelemvor could have orders devoted to and trained in killing undead, and ones that, while mainly concerned with the undead, retain their general abilities, or is there something in CoV that makes these substitutions manditory? |
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Champions of Valor
