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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
 Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 22:14:47
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I was just wondering, and part of this goes back to the old way that the novels section was arranged at WOTC site, but it seems like everyone considers Ed Greenwood, Elaine Cunningham, and R A Salvatore the MAJOR Realms authors.
While I love these three, Troy has been in on almost every major RSE to come down the pike, and I personally have liked a lot of his stories (though none of his Realms stuff touches the Prism Pentad books that he did in Dark Sun).
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 22:59:57
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| Perhaps it's a popularity thing? The ones you list are certainly the most popular of all the Realms writers... |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2005 : 23:22:15
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One might be forgiven for thinking that Troy "Deathstar" Denning is the Forgotten Realms "Axeman" as WOTC seem to bring him in anytime they want to do something nasty to part of the FR setting ie Destroy Tilverton, bump off Azoun IV, Invade Phaerium invasion of Evereska etc (Hell Troy even blew a chunk out of Waterdeep when he wrote the Third novel in the Avatar trilogy)
When Wotc announce Troys doing an FR novel whole FR nations take out Insurance policys
Ive even heard that several Temples of Talos in the Realms have statues of their deity that resemble a certain author
PS: I actually dont mind Troys work its just that he seems to have typecast himself when it comes to FR books
PPS: An Axeman is a term that first started appearing in the 90s when large Corporations where downsizing, it became popular for Managers to bring in an "Axeman" from outside the company to trim of unwanted employees. This way the manager didnt have to fire or dismiss the employee themselves the Axeman did it for them |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
Edited by - Dargoth on 10 Mar 2005 23:36:40 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2005 : 01:58:46
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
While I love these three, Troy has been in on almost every major RSE to come down the pike, and I personally have liked a lot of his stories (though none of his Realms stuff touches the Prism Pentad books that he did in Dark Sun).
Obviously, if you like his stories, that's a good reason for him to be one of your favorite Realms authors. 
However, the fact that he was involved with a lot of RSEs...that, in my opinion, isn't something that makes an author great, especially in the Realms setting. Like some other posters here I'm don't believe in focusing on RSEs in a setting largely meant for sword and sorcery stories, and I've found that many of the best stories are highly personal, character based ones. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2005 : 02:55:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
When Wotc announce Troys doing an FR novel whole FR nations take out Insurance policys
Ive even heard that several Temples of Talos in the Realms have statues of their deity that resemble a certain author
 So, he's the Keyser Soze of the FR novel line. Editors tell authors, "You keep your characters in line, or Troy Denning will be paying them a call." |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2005 : 03:18:14
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| No comment. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2005 : 10:13:49
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Well I just finished reading Faces of Deception (by Troy Denning) and quite enjoyed it. It had quite a different flavor that what we're used to in the Realms, but it was a good read. The ending was great too, quite abrupt but with good emotions.
Whilst I found some parts of The Return of the Archwizards Trilogy a bit over the top, I did enjoy. My only grumble is that WotC have left the Shade situation just dangling 
Onto another of Denning's work - Dragonwall (book 2 of The Empires Trilogy): Fantastic! I was surprised as how this novel drew me in, its very well written, and yet again whilst it deviates from "standard" Realms flavor, its a great story and thoroughly enjoyable. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2005 : 11:27:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
Well I just finished reading Faces of Deception (by Troy Denning) and quite enjoyed it. It had quite a different flavor that what we're used to in the Realms, but it was a good read. The ending was great too, quite abrupt but with good emotions.
Whilst I found some parts of The Return of the Archwizards Trilogy a bit over the top, I did enjoy. My only grumble is that WotC have left the Shade situation just dangling
Onto another of Denning's work - Dragonwall (book 2 of The Empires Trilogy): Fantastic! I was surprised as how this novel drew me in, its very well written, and yet again whilst it deviates from "standard" Realms flavor, its a great story and thoroughly enjoyable.
The only one I can agree with you on is Dragonwall. Faces of Deception was, to me, utterly pointless. The Return of the Archwizards could have been good, but his depiction of otherwise intelligent characters as a bunch of bumbling idiots ruined it for me. |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 00:15:25
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| I happened to enjoy Faces of Deception very much. It was very well written and explored an area of the Realms that has never been described before or after. The ending was a major cliffhanger, and I'm still waiting for the sequel though I doubt there ever will be one. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 04:53:32
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| I would have to say that although Troy has writen some "big novels" he's not a large contributor to the Realms. The 3 mentioned are the 3 that from the novelist end, contributed the most to the Realms. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 05:02:05
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But he is the Axeman.
Lucas Films even brought him in to kill off a major character in the Star Wars Expanded Universe, Anakin Solo. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 06:19:08
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
But he is the Axeman.
Lucas Films even brought him in to kill off a major character in the Star Wars Expanded Universe, Anakin Solo.
But didn't the first major character from the movies die in an RAS novel?
Oh, and it's obvious to me why Troy Denning isn't listed as a major author. You don't give kudos to a guy who's trying to destroy the setting!   |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 06:43:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
But didn't the first major character from the movies die in an RAS novel?
Yes and RAS will ph33r the Star Wars community forever for it. :)
But still, much love went to the third child of Leia and Han and well, he died like only a Jedi could die. :) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 07:33:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh, and it's obvious to me why Troy Denning isn't listed as a major author. You don't give kudos to a guy who's trying to destroy the setting!
Well in defense of TD, I don't think he just walked up to the WOTC writing department and said, "I'm going to send you a novel in a few months that will totally bring chaos to Evereska. Have a contract drawn up when you get a chance."
Of course if he did, then he really has some skills in persuasion. The clever son of a dark elf.
I think the major reason for his omission as a major author is that he's not a current author. How many years have passed since he last wrote an FR novel? Are there any plans for him to contribute something in the near future? |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 12:16:52
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My only beef with Denning's writing was his destruction of the Lords Who Sleep/Sleeping Sword in a paragraph in "Beyond the High Road" - one of the best, dangling bits of realmslore from 1E utterly gone in a couple of sentences. Not a lot of thought went into that one.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2005 : 17:43:39
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
My only beef with Denning's writing was his destruction of the Lords Who Sleep/Sleeping Sword in a paragraph in "Beyond the High Road" - one of the best, dangling bits of realmslore from 1E utterly gone in a couple of sentences. Not a lot of thought went into that one.
-- George Krashos
I'll agree with that. But I think his portrayal of all the good guys in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy suffers from a similar lack of thought. In other books these characters are protrayed as wise and intelligent, but in that trilogy, if they could make a stupid decision, they not only did so, they did it with gusto and arrogance. But I've ranted about that one before...
As for the Lords Who Sleep, it seems unlikely to me that such an important asset to the realm would be unprotected. Had it been me, I would have had them protected by formidable magics, and whichever ghazneth did the deed wouldn't have slain them, he or she (it's been a while since I read those books) would have twisted the magic protections and/or added on to them, making it temporarily impossible to get to the Lords.
That, to me, would have been a lot more plausible than using a sentence or two to eradicate one of the few serious threats the ghazneths would have faced.
Though Ed has said there's not been any moves to redo the Lords Who Sleep, I can see Caladnei trying again at that one, but doing it in a better manner. Extradimensional spaces, scattered groupings of Lords instead of one big bunch, serious magical wards and protections like helmed horrors... Oh, and some means of countering the magic-draining effects. Maybe some sort of living guardians that could wake the Lords in case of attack, or who could activate an additional magic that would have made the Lords inaccessible (like, by teleporting them to another stronghold). And secrecy would be a major part of their protection, too. Not having any one person know where all the groups and their back-up sites are would greatly increase their survivability. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 12 Mar 2005 17:55:25 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 00:52:38
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Okay, I'll return to my own topic now, lol . . .
First off, my comment wasn't that he was a great author, thought I am not argueing that he is not a good author, but a MAJOR author, as in an author that when you see his name you know his work has something big to do with the Realms. In other words, if you read only Ed, Bob, and Elaine, you may never catch onto some of the big events that are later mentioned in those three author's books.
I'm not so sure that Troy is just a contract killer (so to speak). I think he had more free reign with the characters in his own Prism Pentad books in Dark Sun and he still went on a killing/maiming spree with them as well. I think its just part of Troy's character that he is willing to axe a few major names in his own books. I think once that was established, THEN he gets called in to kill Azoun, seriously damage Evereska, etc.
I will say one thing. Every author, no matter how much you like them, has some kind of quirk, quirks you may not like even if you love the rest of their stuff, even if the quirk is far overshadowed by warm fuzzies . . . its still there and once in a while its gnaws at you.
Ed has them, Bob has them, even Elaine has them. But as for Troy's specifically, I will have to say that while I love his original characters, when using other peoples characters he almost uses the established characters to establish the "rep" of his new ones. Galaeron was established as being smart becuase he thought of things that the Chosen didn't, for example.
The only book I think that didn't really give off that vibe was Death of the Dragon, mainly because almost all of his perspective characters were established for a change.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 01:08:49
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Ed has them, Bob has them, even Elaine has them. But as for Troy's specifically, I will have to say that while I love his original characters, when using other peoples characters he almost uses the established characters to establish the "rep" of his new ones. Galaeron was established as being smart becuase he thought of things that the Chosen didn't, for example.
I don't care what his reasoning was. I object to his portrayal of characters that are known to be intelligent and wise as a bunch of morons. Just about every place where good guys that he didn't create could make a decision, they made the wrong one. I can dig wanting to promote your own characters, I just can't dig doing it by ignoring the established personalities of other characters.
He wanted Galaeron to appear smart? Fine, let him outsmart or at least hold his own against some incredibly sneaky bad guys. Don't have him be smarter than bad guys that could be outsmarted by a twelve-year old, and smarter than iconic white hats who don't perform to the level of that same twelve-year old. If the Chosen had been protrayed as intelligent as they actually are, and Galaeron had held his own with them, I would have been more impressed. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 14 Mar 2005 01:15:26 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 01:22:53
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I'm just pointing out that thats one of his quirks, and if you notice, not one I like, just a recurring theme.
And to be completely honest, I was more bothered by the fact that so many of the Chosen just line up to work together in one place . . . I don't think that many of the Chosen bunched up during the Time of Troubles.
Just for the record, I think the Parched Sea, Crucible, the Twilight Giants Trilogy, and the Cormyr books are better examples of Troy's work than the Archwizards. I liked part of them, but parts of them seemed forced to make everyone remember that Shade returning should be a big deal.
Oh, WOTC left Shade hanging literally, if I remember. And part of me is waiting for Sammaster to be annoyed that Malagrys is no longer on board for his plans.
And to be really fair to everyone who has posted, I will definately admit that if Troy writes it someone will die . . . its just in his nature to kill . . . lol
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 02:26:04
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Okay, I'll return to my own topic now, lol . . .
First off, my comment wasn't that he was a great author, thought I am not argueing that he is not a good author, but a MAJOR author, as in an author that when you see his name you know his work has something big to do with the Realms. In other words, if you read only Ed, Bob, and Elaine, you may never catch onto some of the big events that are later mentioned in those three author's books.
I'm sorry if I talked about something that wasn't relevant to your topic. However, I really do think Troy Denning is rather "big" as far as the FR novels go; Denning may not be as renowed as RAS or Ed or EC (for whatever reason, for better or worse), but I don't think he is easily brushed aside either. I believe that any Realms fan should be open to reading a book by Realms authors they haven't tried before rather than just stick to a few staples (my opinion here), but there are plenty of things about Denning's writing that have obviously ticked a lot of readers off, and that's where the dubious reputation comes from. And again, being a major RSE author--by itself--doesn't really impress me much because I don't agree that an RSE-focused perspective in the novels is a good direction for the Realms to travel in.
quote:
I will say one thing. Every author, no matter how much you like them, has some kind of quirk, quirks you may not like even if you love the rest of their stuff, even if the quirk is far overshadowed by warm fuzzies . . . its still there and once in a while its gnaws at you.
I agree. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 14 Mar 2005 02:28:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 02:49:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I'm sorry if I talked about something that wasn't relevant to your topic. However, I really do think Troy Denning is rather "big" as far as the FR novels go; Denning may not be as renowed as RAS or Ed or EC (for whatever reason, for better or worse), but I don't think he is easily brushed aside either. I believe that any Realms fan should be open to reading a book by Realms authors they haven't tried before rather than just stick to a few staples (my opinion here), but there are plenty of things about Denning's writing that have obviously ticked a lot of readers off, and that's where the dubious reputation comes from. And again, being a major RSE author--by itself--doesn't really impress me much because I don't agree that an RSE-focused perspective in the novels is a good direction for the Realms to travel in.
I could care less about who writes the RSEs... I just want a good tale with good characters. Denning has delivered a few, but nothing he's done has, to me, been on a par with the big three. I'm not a fan of all three, but it can't be argued that in terms of sales, they've done a lot more for the Realms than Denning.
Denning has done some good stuff. But not everyone can be at the top. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 02:56:28
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Just for the record, I think the Parched Sea, Crucible, the Twilight Giants Trilogy, and the Cormyr books are better examples of Troy's work than the Archwizards. I liked part of them, but parts of them seemed forced to make everyone remember that Shade returning should be a big deal.
Just to make it clear that I'm not some anti-Denning person... Parched Sea, The Veiled Dragon and Dragonwall are all books I have enjoyed. Crucible is a personal fave among Realms novels.
I read the first book of the Twilight Giants, and it simply failed to grab me. Faces of Deception struck me as utterly pointless -- I was left wondering what the point of the book was, or even if there was one.
As for the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, I just couldn't enjoy it because of the characterization of the established Realms characters. I sincerely hope that their dumbing down happened in the editorial process and not at his hand, because if not, it really stains his track record. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 05:44:38
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
And to be completely honest, I was more bothered by the fact that so many of the Chosen just line up to work together in one place . . . I don't think that many of the Chosen bunched up during the Time of Troubles.
Shadow of the Avatar trilogy kinda explains WHY the Chosen had to sit back and not get involved, and the 1 time Elminster really did get involved, Ao flung him into another plane.
I admit I don't remember enjoying the parts regarding the Chosen in the last novel, and I typically do. However, you must realize they were all involved because Elminster was, once again, flung into another plane... though he could escape this time.
Hmm.. Elminster got flung into another plane in Finder Stone too. Curious. Is anyone keeping notice on this strange phenomenon? |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 05:55:59
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Have you noticed the tendancy for Interplanar rifts to appear in Shadowdale?
Bane created one that led to Loviators home plane during the Time of Troubles and Shades created a rift to the Nine Hells in the Return of the Arch Wizard series |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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lexxan
Acolyte
Italy
5 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 09:58:38
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I think that a writer capable to make a masterpiece such as the Prisma Pentalogy deserves at least to be considered a Major writer , even if his FR novels don't reach the same greatness of the Dark Sun ones. In my opinion, very few authors have reached it so far . |
LeXXan |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 12:57:00
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I wouldn't consider Denning a major FR author. Sure, he's got a bunch of books under his belt, but they are all either unnecessary in the grand scheme of the Realms, or they are really, really bad.
The only FR Denning books I haven't read are the Giants books. I enjoyed Parched Sea, Veiled Dragon, Dragonwall, and even Crucible, but that's only because I read those books at the beginning of my FR "education." By the time I made it to Beyond the High Road, Death of the Dragon, and the Return series, I started to notice a nasty trend of me doing this , this  , this  , and this  whenever I read one of his books.
His tone, his portrayal of Realms characters, the events he presents... His books seem to have an air about them that is completely contrary to the rest of the Realms authors. I mean, you can literally highlight Denning's work in Death of the Dragon, because it's so glaringly uninteresting when compared to Greenwood's epic scenes. Denning's FR books are either so left of center that you really don't need to read them to understand the Realms, or they deal with an important Realms event, BUT, in that case, well-known characters are painted in a COMPLETELY different light, and the overall flow of the novel is like being dragged down a dirt hill naked: it's painful, awkward, and it's something no one needs, really.
I actually remember throwing my copy of The Sorcerer across the empty laundromat back in grad school. That whole trilogy... It was like reading a book while drunk, and events don't synch together, the details are so difficult to envision, and the character interaction just doesn't gel at all. Vala and her epic warriors leaping around, throwing their swords, slaughtering phaerimm like they're nothing, Chosen riding in people's stomachs (the worst scene in all of FR), chaotic battle scenes with ONLY bugbears, mind flayers, and beholders ( ), poorly portrayed Chosen, and a fog giant? And to top it off, OF COURSE we must have another taste of Denning's Malik yn Nasser. I didn't really see a need for him other than he's Denning's personal character. I remember having absolutely no idea what the battlefield of Evereska looked like. I couldn't envision the landscape whatsoever, and every time I went back to read things over again, I got really frustrated because I STILL couldn't paint that mental image.
I'm not surprised by Denning's disappearance. If I ever did read another FR novel by him, it would only be to see how bad it is.
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"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
Edited by - Crust on 14 Mar 2005 14:18:04 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 14:08:11
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No really, you can say how you really feel . . . lol
I don't think that the Avatar Trilogy is a fair gauge of anyones writing talent because it was such a rushed, agenda driven book. Not only was it a shared world, but a shared trilogy, which creates other problems (see the threads on WOTSQ for some other thooughts on that one).
I don't think that the Archwizards books were his best work, but again there was a certain agenda behind the plot. Dispite that, there were some good moments in there and some memorable characters. I think the lesson is not to expect your favorite characters from other authors to be highlighted well in Troy's books. And don't forget Ruha is also another favorite of Troy's, and I rather like her.
In defence of Death of the Dragon, I thought the overall effort there was great, and it was becuase of BOTH authors. I love Ed, but just as I have pointed out Troy's homocidal tendancies and his willingness to "get over" on established characters, Ed's biggest shortfall seems to be just ending his books, as he tends to have 15 different power groups and half the Chosen show up for the final spellbattle and all the loose ends tie up. Keep in mind I am not saying that the whole book is that way, Ed just tends to END his books that way, and even those close to him on these threads have noticed that . . . God bless both of them I think it was a good collaboration, and I would like to reiterate these are just observations . . . I enjoy reading both their work and I couldn't do it any better . . . |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 21:29:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Crust
Chosen riding in people's stomachs (the worst scene in all of FR)
Yeap, definately bad. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 23:17:22
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I think the lesson is not to expect your favorite characters from other authors to be highlighted well in Troy's books.
I can deal with someone else's characters not being highlighted well. I can't deal with totally different characters with the same name and appearance, and that's what he has a habit of serving us. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 23:19:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Crust
Chosen riding in people's stomachs (the worst scene in all of FR)
That was a really weird one... I don't know that I'd call it the worst scene, but I'm not thinking of any that are worse... |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2005 : 23:25:50
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| That stomach-riding scene sounds great, can I get a page reference? |
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Why isn't Troy Denning Listed as a Major Author?
